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  1. #1
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    BMW M to phase out DCT (dual clutch) and manual gearboxes in favor of traditional automatics

    When you can no longer option your BMW M car with a manual transmission and an automatic is the only choice the conversion of the M brand from roadcourse to dragstrip will officially be complete. That is exactly where we are headed according to BMW M's VP of sales and marketing Peter Quintus.

    Click here to enlarge

    We already know the next generation F90 M5 will be available with a ZF automatic gearbox. Why? Because the unit is already tried and tested with the Audi C7 RS6 and RS7 which are all wheel drive models. The M5 going to all wheel drive puts more stress on the drivetrain and with all that twin turbo V8 torque a stout gearbox is needed.

    Why spend the money to develop a new dual clutch for the all wheel drive system when you can just plug in ZF's solution? That is exactly what Mercedes-AMG did with the W212 and W213 generation 4Matic E63's.

    Fine, they are cutting costs. No surprise there. However, the manual looks like it will follow the dual clutch out the door. That is not good:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Peter Quintus
    I'm not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 models from BMW will have the option of a manual gearbox.
    He also says the manual gearboxes can not cope with the torque which is a joke. He also takes a shot at American manual gearboxes which seem to have no trouble with big torque:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Peter Quintus
    We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful
    Awful shift quality? Based on what? Also, how is the ZF automatic any lighter than a good manual gearbox? It isn't. It is heavier. So what the hell kind of logical argument is that?

    What this comes down to is that M is moving to all wheel drive to put the torque down and if the next generation M3 and M4 are all wheel drive they will simply plug in the ZF gearbox rather than develop a dual clutch.

    The DCT is still the enthusiast and performance choice and the manual is obviously the choice for driver interaction.

    Oh well, this is the new M.

    Source
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  2. #2
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    LOL. And then a driver-less M car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BigM62 Click here to enlarge
    LOL. And then a driver-less M car.
    That will be the final step.
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  4. #4
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    Looks like domestics will continue to take over as the enthusiast choice. Who would have guessed Ford would be building one of the best driver's cars at any price point five years ago??

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
    Who would have guessed Ford would be building one of the best driver's cars at any price point five years ago??
    I would not have but the Americans have the absolute best enthusiast cars on the planet.

    Even Porsche messed around with not offering a manual which is insane for their core appearance.

    The GT350R is better than anything BMW produces today at any price point. Period.
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    If the 350 had been out and available when I was new(ish) car shopping, I'd have bought one. It'll likely be my next car.

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    [This is just the beginning of the iceberg. Bob Lutz, yes that Bob Lutz, said in a article last year or so, that driverless cars are coming a lot sooner than later, and it will be illegal to drive your car on public roads, only on private property. I sheet you not.

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    The only question is, "Why can Porsche improve their PDK when BMW cannot improve their DCT?"

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    The only question is, "Why can Porsche improve their PDK when BMW cannot improve their DCT?"
    Porsche invested in it for the Panamera. They already had the gearbox.

    BMW does not have an all wheel drive dual clutch solution.

    Mercedes for example already had the gearbox from the SLS hence why the GT gets it.

    Audi could have tried to beef up the S6/S7 dual clutch but they opted to go the ZF route and that is what everyone is doing.

    Porsche is better choice than BMW for the enthusiast but that is a given at this point.
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    The day bmw phases out manual transmissions is the day I finally choose a different brand. I have had exclusively manual trans bmws since I was 16. Yeah yeah people say auto is faster, better blah blah......yeah piss off then. I truly believe with an auto you get a true disconnect from the car. A manual trans just brings you into a connection that an auto will never have. Knowing your car by the sound of the rpm knowing what gear to down shift too these are just some of the true joys of really enjoying your drive.
    Sad day....... I guess I'll have to keep buying older cars. Thank God for my e30!!!

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    just curious what you guys will choose when BMW gets rid of MT/DCT?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Den* Click here to enlarge
    just curious what you guys will choose when BMW gets rid of MT/DCT?
    Some of us have already moved on.

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    The manual in Pcar is truly a master piece. The shift is very direct and butter smooth. If you watch 991.2 MT video, you would also see how easy he went thru the gears. This is my experience after driving Wrx, R32 and M4 manual.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    M/T or not, there's not a single BMW newer than 2013 I'd buy. I could be tempted to look at a F10 M5, but I doubt I'd buy one. There's a lot more than dropping M/T's that BMW has wrong.

    Ford on the other hand? I could be seen driving most of their cars. Even though I despise this Ecoboost bull$#@!.

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    This makes sense. ZF is conquering the world with their boxes and will keep pushing them to the point that they will be able to be faster and more responsive than DCT and Getrag simply cant fight back and much improve on their dct. Sucks that ZF PDK is exclusive to Porsche.

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    1 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    The DCT is an automatic, I don't really see the difference or why it matters. Auto or DCT, there still isn't a clutch pedal, and you don't control gear changes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by quattr0 Click here to enlarge
    The manual in Pcar is truly a master piece. The shift is very direct and butter smooth. If you watch 991.2 MT video, you would also see how easy he went thru the gears. This is my experience after driving Wrx, R32 and M4 manual.
    That manual is indeed one of the best in the business.

    The PDK is also probably the best dual clutch in the business.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aaron Click here to enlarge
    The DCT is an automatic, I don't really see the difference or why it matters. Auto or DCT, there still isn't a clutch pedal, and you don't control gear changes.
    Well, then, you're stupid.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 93siro Click here to enlarge
    Getrag simply cant fight back and much improve on their dct.
    Why not?
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    DCT frees up your right arm so you can scratch your pussy.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why not?
    It doesnt make sense for them to invest in DCT. Everyone is moving on from DCT to autos. Their volume buyers are Chinese companies now and lets say they dont want the most advanced dct in the world. Getrag 7speed rwd transmission is solely for BMW and how many DCT cars BMW produce vs the whole Porsche lineup that ZF supplies?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    DCT frees up your right arm so you can scratch your pussy.
    Click here to enlarge

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 93siro Click here to enlarge
    It doesnt make sense for them to invest in DCT. Everyone is moving on from DCT to autos. Their volume buyers are Chinese companies now and lets say they dont want the most advanced dct in the world. Getrag 7speed rwd transmission is solely for BMW and how many DCT cars BMW produce vs the whole Porsche lineup that ZF supplies?
    ZF is just supplying Porsche though with dual clutches.

    Getrag supplies Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Volvo, etc. So I mean Getrag has plenty of dual clutch volume and more than ZF.

    This is just BMW plugging in the ZF auto because it's cheaper and meets the torque guidelines. If they really believed autos were better WTF did they never use them in M cars? (US neutered E36 M3 excluded)
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    Porsche sells about 225,000 total cars per year, while BMW produces 2 million (excluding Mini and motorcycles).

    Every car that Porsche produces amount to just over 11% of BMW production.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    ZF is just supplying Porsche though with dual clutches.

    Getrag supplies Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Volvo, etc. So I mean Getrag has plenty of dual clutch volume and more than ZF.

    This is just BMW plugging in the ZF auto because it's cheaper and meets the torque guidelines. If they really believed autos were better WTF did they never use them in M cars? (US neutered E36 M3 excluded)
    Ford is switching to regular autos from what i see and all you mentioned above are either transaxles or transverse transmissions. Completely different.
    The thing is for a long time slushboxes sucked but now they are becoming so good that a dct doesn't make sense much specially if you have to come up with something really expensive and heavy like Veyrons 100k unit to handle the torque.

    Bottomline is we should have seen it coming when Audi and Ford went with auto boxes instead of dct. They are simply not enough players left to justify pushing DCT's forward.

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