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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's a perfectly fair comparison as both cars have power adders.
    I guess if you mean both are FI. Generally when I hear power adder I think not stock equipment as in someone added a real power adder like an aftermarket sc/turbo/nos. A real power adder comparison would be an aftermarket power adder added on both cars. This is like comparing a fbo n54 with a sc s65 granted the s55 turbos are better but it's fbo with a fairly new tune that is limited vs a sc s65 with tuning and a real aftermarket power adder all figured out right?

    I think it is a good comparison. HP wins races as always.

    Generally the car with the highest displacement and revs will win. But not all motors can handle high boost no matter what is done to them unless you want to spend stupid money.

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    Someone on another forum posted they knew the driver and its a clean run, the f8x was running fine. Just to clear up people saying the f8x car wasn't running well at the time of this race. Is he full of it? Who knows....either way its common sense really. Similar weight, the higher rpm/gearing/hp car wins. The f8x is just getting started, and looks extremely promising Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Someone on another forum posted they knew the driver and its a clean run, the f8x was running fine. Just to clear up people saying the f8x car wasn't running well at the time of this race. Is he full of it? Who knows....either way its common sense really. Similar weight, the higher rpm/gearing/hp car wins. The f8x is just getting started, and looks extremely promising Click here to enlarge
    This.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I guess if you mean both are FI. Generally when I hear power adder I think not stock equipment as in someone added a real power adder like an aftermarket sc/turbo/nos.
    That's not what I think. A power adder for an engine is forced induction or nitrous. This is how it is seen in competitive racing series I don't see why the definition should change to aftermarket upgrades.

    The S55 is equipped with a turbo from the factory. It has its power adder. The S65 is naturally aspirated. A power adder for it is a supercharger or turbo or nitrous.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    A real power adder comparison would be an aftermarket power adder added on both cars.
    No. That is simply skewing things in the favor of the S55. If you want to compare aftermarket upgrades to aftermarket upgrades by all means do so but handicapping a motor into a different comparison just because it wins with a blower isn't fair.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    This is like comparing a fbo n54 with a sc s65 granted the s55 turbos are better but it's fbo with a fairly new tune that is limited vs a sc s65 with tuning and a real aftermarket power adder all figured out right?
    I only see these types of arguments whenever an M3 wins which from all the videos we are seeing is pretty often. Motors with forced induction already have an advantage in power potential. An aftermarket SC is by default necessary for the M3 in this argument. Both have power adders then. Both do not have aftermarket forced induction kit upgrades though if that is what you mean. That is simply by nature of their initial design.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Generally the car with the highest displacement and revs will win. But not all motors can handle high boost no matter what is done to them unless you want to spend stupid money.
    People who want to play this game need to be prepared for how expensive it gets.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    The way I see it is one car has factory induction with software and fuel changes. The s65 has aftermarket induction with boltons. Not necessarily a video we can draw comparisons between the philosophy from. Theres no way that changing a few values in code along with added octane can equate to a supercharger and bolt-ons

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    That's like saying a completely stock 300hp 335i with twin turbos has a power adder vs a supercharged s65 e9x m3 with a supercharger has a power adder is a fair race, in which we all know it is not.

    Just my opinion, but a fair comparision would be s55 + larger stock housing turbos and bolt ons = s65 with supercharger kit and bolt ons.
    2008 e92 335i

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stucks Click here to enlarge
    That's like saying a completely stock 300hp 335i with twin turbos has a power adder vs a supercharged s65 e9x m3 with a supercharger has a power adder is a fair race, in which we all know it is not.

    Just my opinion, but a fair comparision would be s55 + larger stock housing turbos and bolt ons = s65 with supercharger kit and bolt ons.

    Exactly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stucks Click here to enlarge
    That's like saying a completely stock 300hp 335i with twin turbos has a power adder vs a supercharged s65 e9x m3 with a supercharger has a power adder is a fair race, in which we all know it is not.
    Nobody is saying power adder to power adder is a fair race. What is being said is one motor has a power adder and another motor has a power adder.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stucks Click here to enlarge
    Just my opinion, but a fair comparision would be s55 + larger stock housing turbos and bolt ons = s65 with supercharger kit and bolt ons.
    People can deflect however they want. The car with less torque but more HP up top won. There is only one thing obsolete here and it is that more torque wins.

    I can tell you how this all ends up right now if you like. The larger motor that revs higher with the flatter torque curve wins. Forever and ever.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    The way I see it is one car has factory induction with software and fuel changes. The s65 has aftermarket induction with boltons. Not necessarily a video we can draw comparisons between the philosophy from. Theres no way that changing a few values in code along with added octane can equate to a supercharger and bolt-ons
    Then sir you do not get it.

    The issue here seems to be the amount of upgrades the s65 gets. How can it not? It's starting with a huge deficit. The reason? It is naturally aspirated. Take the turbos off the S55 and what happens?

    It's very simple. It's incredibly simple. You boost a motor that revs higher with more displacement as well as higher volumetric efficiency and you get more power per psi of boost. The S65 has much higher volumetric efficiency.

    Ladies and gentlemen, a 4.0 liter V8 revving to 8400 with a flat curve is not losing to a 3.0 liter direct injected turbo I6 ever in the battle of pure power especially if that I6 is not built to rev. It's a physical impossibility. This was never a match. It was over on paper before it began.

    Hate away if you like. Physics is physics.

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    But then reality kicks in and amount of money spent per hp/tq increase is a deciding factor to the aftermarket consumer. Yes the s65 will make more power but at what cost? Cost is a factor, because its common sense and responsible to think this way. Not everyone has a open checkbook and even if you did, smart people still spend wisely and don't throw money away.

    Right now, no upgraded turbo's have been added to the S55, so we have no idea what it will cost for a s55 to equal a 625/650 kit supercharged s65. Will the s55 need more cooling upgrades, fueling, can the injectors handle more power, chassis upgrades to handle the increased TQ....etc. The S55 is no N54, its complex and could get expensive quickly to get to the next level. It is a M motor after all Click here to enlarge We do know the cost on the s65 side. Its relatively high, although most forget, in its day, the e9x M, loaded was a 80k car to begin with so the aftermarket prices will naturally be more expensive in comparison to a mustang, 135 or 335, etc.

    By the way the price of s65 Supercharger kits are dropping immensly (anyone look lately?) so this argument is just getting started. Click here to enlarge
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  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Yes the s65 will make more power but at what cost
    Who cares?

    Should it be the person spending the money?

    The TT Gallardo makes more power than the tuned E63 AMG. AND?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stucks Click here to enlarge
    That's like saying a completely stock 300hp 335i with twin turbos has a power adder vs a supercharged s65 e9x m3 with a supercharger has a power adder is a fair race, in which we all know it is not.

    Just my opinion, but a fair comparision would be s55 + larger stock housing turbos and bolt ons = s65 with supercharger kit and bolt ons.
    +1

    Upgrade the turbos on the M4 and then it'd be a fair race.

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    There just is no sense arguing with some people. You're right sticky, this is a pure 100% apples to apples fair comparison. Both have 'real' power adders. We all know until BMW releases a larger displacement higher reving engine the S65 will be numero uno!

    If you really want to compare them take the cost of mods on the S55 and put them on the S65 and let me know who wins.

    Drop the 9k(625 cost) into the S55 and I think it will win.

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    Apples to apples...?

    All I know the S55 is just getting started, there will be quicker M3/M4. Just as there are also much quicker E9x SC M3's.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    But then reality kicks in and amount of money spent per hp/tq increase is a deciding factor to the aftermarket consumer.
    I always hate this argument. People with different budgets choose different platforms.

    If not, we all should be driving domestics.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    I always hate this argument. People with different budgets choose different platforms.

    If not, we all should be driving domestics.
    how can you hate an argument that is a fact? price/hp bang for your buck call it what whatever but it is real buying decision. Not just for cars but all purchases. if someone doesn't consider the amount paid for the return they get they will quickly find themselves very poor.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    There just is no sense arguing with some people. You're right sticky, this is a pure 100% apples to apples fair comparison. Both have 'real' power adders. We all know until BMW releases a larger displacement higher reving engine the S65 will be numero uno!

    If you really want to compare them take the cost of mods on the S55 and put them on the S65 and let me know who wins.

    Drop the 9k(625 cost) into the S55 and I think it will win.
    I didn't claim it's a pure apples to apples comparison. I said both cars have power adders. They both have forced induction do they not?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    If you really want to compare them take the cost of mods on the S55 and put them on the S65 and let me know who wins.
    No matter what you spend on the S55 the S65 will always be capable of more. Not to mention there are no upgrades out that will reverse this result anyway or allow the S55 to play with built motor supercharged or turbocharged S65's. Simply the truth.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Drop the 9k(625 cost) into the S55 and I think it will win.
    Drop the compression on the S65 and I think it will win.

    See the issue?

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Apples to apples...?

    All I know the S55 is just getting started, there will be quicker M3/M4. Just as there are also much quicker E9x SC M3's.
    Exactly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    how can you hate an argument that is a fact? price/hp bang for your buck call it what whatever but it is real buying decision. Not just for cars but all purchases. if someone doesn't consider the amount paid for the return they get they will quickly find themselves very poor.
    The M3/M4 cost more than the E92 M3 does today if you want to go that route. Buy a used car, put an SC on it, and you win for less money. What just happened to your $ per hp argument now?

    The argument is ridiculous because these are completely different motors. Of course it's cheaper to throw a tune on the S55 than to supercharge the S65. It's also cheaper to throw a tune on an E63 AMG than turbocharge a Gallardo. I know which one one I'd rather have though.

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    if someone doesn't consider the amount paid for the return they get they will quickly find themselves very poor.
    This is car modification not real estate.

    Plenty of people can afford to build their cars up. If I can, others can.

    If hp per dollar is the only argument in favor of the F80 M3 it has already lost.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M3/M4 cost more than the E92 M3 does today if you want to go that route. Buy a used car, put an SC on it, and you win for less money. What just happened to your $ per hp argument now?
    Good point actually. Used m3 for $35k-$40k, revs to 8400 rpm's, sounds like a exotic and takes them out too....Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
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    Looking forward to results on TT S65. Might be next or a built TT S85. I've always been a fan. I still kind of want a Porsche next though. So many decisions.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Good point actually. Used m3 for $35k-$40k, revs to 8400 rpm's, sounds like a exotic and takes them out too....Click here to enlarge
    Actually seen some decent E9x M3's dropping below $30k these days.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Actually seen some decent E9x M3's dropping below $30k these days.
    Yup..... pretty amazing and a great buy IMO. If anyone hasn't driven or rode in a supercharged e9x m3, I suggest you do so. A dct 600-650 supercharged s65 is a $#@!ing rocket of a car that is very relaible. Turn the key and go, everytime, no codes, no alternate fuels, nothing but fun ha
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Yup..... pretty amazing and a great buy IMO. If anyone hasn't driven or rode in a supercharged e9x m3, I suggest you do so. A dct 600-650 supercharged s65 is a $#@!ing rocket of a car that is very relaible. Turn the key and go, everytime, no codes, no alternate fuels, nothing but fun ha
    ive seen quite a few need motors go from these kits though... newer motors seem better no? And those examples are still 40kish
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