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07242010, 05:29 PM #1Timeout
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Paper Racing vs Dyno #'s Vs Realworld #'s
Just reading through this, not sure if anyone else has seen it before. Good info:
http://www.turbobricks.com/resources...uartermiledyno
The $15 Dyno
Or How To Get A Cheap, Accurate, Repeatable HP Estimate
By Bill Watson
It's natural that with a group like Turbobricks, the talk commonly turns to power output. Even though the intent is good, the talk is just that: talk. Sometimes we all wish we could get free dyno time to see just what kind of power our cars are really making.
I would suggest that the most accurate CHEAP method out there is a trip to your local quarter mile dragstrip, which typically costs around $15 for a whole night of racing. We can argue out the accuracy and repeatability of engine dynos with rear wheel dynos with the dragway in another article.
The paragraphs below focus on the fact that you'll use speed instead of time as your yardstick, and the point is... YOU DON'T HAVE TO ABUSE THE CAR TO GET YOUR NUMBERS. That's the biggest excuse I hear for why someone doesn't go to the strip. You DON'T have to buy slicks, or do a neutral drop, or burn your clutch, or buy 4.10 gears, or even warm up the tires in the water box. IT'S EASY, NOW QUIT MAKING EXCUSES AND JUST GO DO IT. (Whew!)
Like it or not, the trap speed at the end of the quarter is an excellent indicator of your HP to weight. If you know weight (almost every track has a scale), then you can calculate HP. It's that simple.
Note that I have not used the term "ET" (Elapsed Time) yet. I have said TRAP SPEED, the speed of the vehicle by the end of the quarter mile. However, almost everyone involved with drag racing will discuss the ET, the elapsed time to cover that quarter mile. Yes, the two are related of course, but for all intents and purposes, here's what I hope you learn from this article;
Trap Speed will tell you about your HP to weight.
ET will tell you more about traction and your launch.
Of course ET is important to true drag racers, because the winner is the one that gets there first. However, we're not necessarily true drag racers in our attempt to get a power estimate. Honestly, ask 10 guys at the track "What kind of trap speed are you running?" and 8 out of 10 will answer with their ET  to one or two decimal places even. When you say, "No, no, I meant trap speed", they will fumble with a broad estimate with NO decimal places and might even have to pull a time slip out of their pocket to check. Try this question when you're at the track; it's almost funny.
THE DYNAMICS OF TRAP SPEED VS. ET
After running lots of quarter miles, it becomes clear that how well you do in the first 100 feet of the track is KEY to a good time. The last half of the track is KEY to a good speed.
Let's use an example of a stickshift minipickup that on a perfect run, gets a timeslip of 19.50 seconds at 70.00 mph in the quarter.
Imagine that the light turns green, the truck moves two feet and the engine dies for three seconds. After restarting the engine, the driver proceeds to then complete a perfect pass. His time slip would show 22.50 seconds at 69.97 mph. The ET was 3.00 seconds high but the speed was almost unaffected.. why?? It's because his racetrack was 1318 feet long instead of 1320, and in those last two feet this truck usually gains an additional 0.03 mph. However, the clocks recorded the long time. My point? Much of a great ET is made by a great launch.
Now take this truck again, and the driver leaves right on the green light. However, he misses the 34 shift when he's at 1250 feet. He coasts for the last 70 feet while trying to find fourth gear. Now instead of accelerating another few mph in this final 70 feet of the track, he decelerates over this distance. His timeslip; 19.51 at 67.83 mph. Note how the et is almost perfect (only off by 0.01 second) but the trap speed is way off (over 2 mph slow)! On a good run, traveling that last 70 feet at an average of 69 mph, would have taken .692 seconds. At a 68 mph avg., that 70 feet takes .682 seconds. That's why his ET only varied by .01 seconds, yet the trap speed was 'way off'. My point here: the end of the track is critical to trap speed; shift rpm, missing a gear... these are the big players.
Hopefully these examples are clear. Neither of these runs are 'perfect' runs, it's just that one has an error at the start, one at the finish and the results are obvious. The start of the track is a big player in the ET, but a small player in the mph. The end of the track is a big player in the mph, but a small player the ET.
So for the casual TBricks member who wants to get a HP value, you don't have to buy slicks, or wish you had a limited slip differential. You don't really need to heat the tires in the waterbox, or launch with huge power braking. As long as people get their shift rpm right and don't miss a gear, even a rookie will get the appropriate trap speed for their vehicle.. but honing the perfect ET. requires being rude to a clutch, buying steeper gears or slicks.... hey, we're trying to make this recreational.
OPTIMIZING SPEED
If your goal is to get a good trap speed, what are your options? More power, of course  and less weight is obvious (but it will come out in the power calculations as no increase in power). Shift rpm chosen (auto or manual) and the time it takes you to shift (with a manual) are probably the most important tools you've got. Try different shift points to maximize your trap speed. Reduce rolling resistance by pumping up all tires to their rated pressure. Some people think that running lower pressure might help the traction in the rear, though. Of course more traction will help et, but with most street tires, running street tires within 5 psi of rated pressure will provide you with maximum traction in the first place.
REACTION TIME
The ET clocks don't start until you've actually moved around 8 inches (this is called the rollout)... so don't worry about trying to leave right on the green light. You could wait 5 seconds after the light turned green, and still get a 19.50 timeslip in our truck example above. Your timeslip does show a separate calculated time, the "Reaction Time", which in this case would be 5 seconds. That is the time from the light turning green until you rolled out of the starting zone. It's not a big thing for our discussion here.
THE LAUNCH
For the most part, a decrease in ET is accompanied by an increase in trap speed, but don't go overboard on the launch in your zest to rule the world. Just try to get smartly underway without spinning the tires much at all. Traction levels usually drop a solid 0.10 g when the tires start spinning.
THE HP FORMULA
Here's the formula to use to calculate HP:
Net HP = Weight in pounds* (Speed in MPH/228.4)^3
As an example, Car & Driver tested the 744 Turbo in their June 1990 issue. The car weighed 3,081 lb. without the driver.. the 'race weight' was 3,231 lb. The car ran a 15.7 second quarter at 86 mph. Let's plug it in to the formula:
HP = 3231 * (86/228.4)^3
HP = 172 Net
Volvo rated this at 162 Net. We come out a little high. Or does Volvo underrate a little? I'll say this  I've used this formula for years and that's how the 228.4 was honed  actual experience from cars that had actual power curves  and when I use it on Volvos it tends to always come out a few percent higher than the factory rating. This could simply be that Volvo underrates just a little.
Still, for such a simple formula and such a simple test, it's surprising how accurate this can be. And the best thing is  there's no arguing the numbers on a timeslip. There are always differences between a DynoJet and an Eddy Current Dyno, or GTech numbers, but every setup is done by someone different and subject to error. The quarter mile is arguably the best comparison a diversely located group like Turbobricks will ever have. The only real difference to argue about is the altitude of the track! You can compare ET and mph all day and have a good discussion.
HANDY RULE OF THUMB
Once you have a baseline, you should probably use a rule of thumb that each additional 6 HP will give you another mph. That's for a 3200 lb car that runs 88 mph. If you want the real formula for different weights or speeds, here it is:
HP for another mph above "X" speed: = Wt * (((X+1)^3X^3) / (228.4^3))
For instance a 89 mph quarter vs. an 88 mph quarter for a 3200 lb car:
HP delta = 3200 * ((89^388^3) / 228.4^3))
HP delta = 6.3 HP
Once you're going 110 in the quarter, it would take an additional 10 HP to go 111 mph in the 3200 lb car.
60 FOOT TIME
This is the standard measurement tool to evaluate your launch. It's the time that it took you to travel the first 60 feet of the track. Naturally, patterns emerge again after looking at lots of runs and of course these correlate best to time, not mph. Typically, most everyone's 60' time will be between 14% and 16% of their quarter mile time. If it's under 13% or over 17%, this was not your best pass.
1/8 MILE VS. 1/4 MILE
After monitoring tons of good passes, patterns emerge. Typically, the mph at the quarter is around 1.26 times of the mph at the eighth, and the time at the quarter is around 1.55 times the time at the eighth. You can use these values if you only have a 1/8 mile track and get a real good idea of the theoretical 1/4 mile.
IS MY ET TO SPEED RATIO REASONABLE?
One fact of the quarter mile is; no matter how slow or fast your car is, the mph multiplied by the ET will pretty much be the same number every time. Before the NHRA changed the way that speed is measured in 1989, the product of speed and time was around 1400. Let's calculate some easy examples of this. A 14.00 et usually resulted in a trap speed very near 100 mph. A 10.00 et meant around 140 mph. A 200 mph pass usually takes around 7.00 seconds. These are still good rules of thumb to remember, but now the product is more like 1380 for us  The example from Car and Driver above comes out at 1350. (The reason for this shift is explained below). Remember, most everyone focuses on ET so much that they'll even optimize a car for slower mph if it gets them a better ET. (Rear end gearing is one way to do this). Those guys tend to have a product closer to 1300.
RESPECT MORE SPEED  A LOT. EVEN 3 MPH.
If you look at the formula again, you'll note how trap speed shows up as the cube root of power to weight. That's critical to understanding how fast one car is over another. Let's say your car does a 90 mph quarter and the guy who raced you in the other lane ran 71 mph. After the race, he wanders over to you to say the 'race was close'. Your reply: "I could have towed you and still beat you". (This might not be the best way to make friends, but yes, it is TRUE if the cars weigh the same.)
Do the math. (90/71) cubed is 2.04. Yes, the 90 mph car has 2.04 times the power to weight of the slower car. It has 2.04 times the acceleration of the slower car. It's just that the track is a fixed length, and in accelerating to higher speeds, you use up the track quicker. You accelerated to 90 in about 20% less time than he had to accelerate to 71, right?
Bottom line; Down where most of us run, a 3 mph difference between two cars is NOT a race. It was a clear win. There's a full 10% difference between these cars.
SOME MAGAZINES SHOW THE CONSTANT AS 230.5 OR 234.0. WHERE DID YOU GET 228.4?
Some people try to correct to different things. Like Gross HP instead of Net. But most commonly, these other constants that you'll see in magazines were originally published before 1989 when the NHRA changed their lights, and the 'new' journalist doesn't realize the formula should change accordingly. Here's what I mean; previous to 1989, there were three timing lights at the end of the track; one AT the end of the quarter mile, and one 66 feet before, and one 66 feet after. The middle light was used to calculate the et of the run, and the time to travel the 132 feet at the end of the track was used to calculate the trap speed. This gave the average speed at the end of the track, but you can see what this lead to. Most of the racers stayed on the gas for an additional 66 feet past the quarter to get a consistent speed to evaluate their setup. The track's 'shut down area' of course is a fixed length, but the pro racers were starting to hit 300 mph plus by the end. In an attempt to get these guys off the gas 66 feet earlier and 'make' the cars appear slower, the NHRA stopped using the last light around August of 1989. Today, the trap speed is calculated between the light at the quarter mile and the one 66 feet before. So any timeslip after 1989 is really giving the average speed 33 feet from the finish, which is pretty close to one percent slower than before. The old constant of 230.5 became 228.4 to compensate.
CORRECTING FOR ALTITUDE
If we were dealing with nonturbo cars, this would be easy and we'd publish a formula. But with pressurized cars, the correction factor for altitude depends on the boost you run.
For instance, Sea Level air pressure is 14.7 psi. If you go to a track in Boise, Idaho (2850 feet above sea level) the air pressure is now around 13.25 psi. That's 90.1% of sea level pressure. If the temperature doesn't change and you have an normally aspirated car, your power output will now be 90.1% of what it used to be, so I'd tell you to correct by multiplying your calculated HP by an extra 10.9% (1/.901, or 1.109).
However, (and this is the beauty of turbo cars!!) Let's say you were running 10 psi of boost in the first place. So at sea level, your car was really getting 24.7 psi (14.7 + 10). Now you leave the wastegate at 10 psi and race at Boise. Your manifold pressure is now 23.25 psi (13.25 + 10). Note that YOUR power isn't down as much.. it's down to 94.1% of what it is at sea level. So you should correct with an extra 6.2% (1/.941, or 1.062).
If you wish to calculate your own correction factor, here is a handy table of elevation (feet above sea level) vs. standard day atmospheric pressure (psi):
0 14.70
500 14.43
1000 14.18
1500 13.92
2000 13.67
2500 13.42
3000 13.17
3500 12.92
4000 12.69
4500 12.45
5000 12.23
5500 12.00
6000 11.78
6500 11.56
7000 11.34
7500 11.13
8000 10.91
8500 10.71
9000 10.51
9500 10.30
10000 10.11
Yes, the detail oriented will notice that I'm ignoring lots of small effects of higher pressure ratios in the compressor, lower density air across the intercooler and even the fact that there's less wind drag at higher altitudes, and they're right. However, the overall concepts above still hold true.
There's lots of discussion of 300, 400, even 450 HP on the Tubrobricks list. It would be great to see these power levels turn out to be true. Just keep in mind that an honest 300 Net HP in a 3200 lb Volvo (includes driver) will go just under 104 mph in the quarter. 400 HP would push it 114 mph, and 450 HP should propel the car to a trap speed of nearly 119 mph at Sea Level!
I hope this helps further your understanding about the quarter mile and some of its myths. Here's your chance to get some numbers of your own, so you'll be more accurate when you estimate your car's true power.

 Bill Watson, Sr Engineer, Honeywell Jet Engines
 Database manager of over 400 Honeywell employees' 1/4 mile runs, has
extensively studied the relationship between variables in 1/4 mile
performance
Comments?

07252010, 04:15 AM #2
This... is brilliant.
I could not have said it any better, this is exactly the type of thing I have been trying to convey to the old guys in the M3 scene who just don't understand the drag strip or why real enthusiasts use it as the measuring stick. I was going to write an article on why we prefer timeslips over dyno results but I don't need to. This is perfect, thanks for posting.Three sets of brand new 991.2 3.0 headers for sale: Kline, Fabspeed, and Vektor Ceramic Coated
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07252010, 05:25 AM #3
Great read. That is the idea I got from my research to Sticky's original pool he started for the BMS gear. I just couldn't find a way to argue against PG's simplistic analogy he made in an argument with Sticky later on, but I feel that covered it pretty clearly.

07252010, 09:41 AM #4Timeout
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I only have one question, what is "^" ? I had to bust out the procalculater and just find that symbol to run the equations

07252010, 09:43 AM #5
I'll delete this if I'm missing sarcasm but it indicates that everything afterwards (following the good old FOIL steps) is an exponent.

07252010, 10:27 AM #6Timeout
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no sarcasm, i really had to find my calc with the symbol to just press the button. But i just searched, you are correct

07252010, 10:41 AM #7
Haha awesome. Just trying to make sure I'm not That guy. By the way if you're working out the math, what number are you looking at for your car if I may ask?

07252010, 10:44 AM #8Timeout
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dont know since i didnt hit the track yet. but if you take some of the other known n54 mph's its pretty accurate

07252010, 11:00 AM #9
ok read. although imo some of the hard numbers they give just cant be accurate to the general public. every car is different: gearing, max revs, turbocharged, the list is endless when it comes to specifics. an example of some of the odd hard numbers are when he describes the 60foot and 1/8th vs 1/4th... these multipliers cant be constant. on the other hand, ive seen that HP multiplication equation many times before. i guess they changed the constant in the last few years, im glad its more accurate than ever now the one i remember is: CHP=((mph/234)^3)*weight. pretty cool, nice info.
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07252010, 01:12 PM #10Timeout
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he explains why they it changed from 23x to the 228.4, its pretty spot on though.. try it on say, the top 5 n54's on dragtimes and see what you come up with, or your best bet, is t odo it on those guys tat have dragtimes #'s posted, AND Dyno's available.. even giving the benfit of dropping the car weight to say 3300lbs in a 335(wishful thinking)
we can really put it to the test once i get back to the track and get on a scale to see what im working with..
i just did it with Sticky's #'s BTW

02242011, 12:11 PM #11Timeout
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I think now that track season is opening up again, some of the new to drag racing crowd may want to read this.
Perhaps some of the more seasoned veterans might want to chime in and offer analysis on why they agree/disagree with whats stated above?

02242011, 07:03 PM #12
It is all well written but if there is anything I would disagree with it is that most often I get best MPH with best 60 foots.
I mean, look at the mustang 5.0 that was running on radials then they switched to slicks and it ran 10's with a higher MPH. Hooking better doesn't always reduce your trap and spinning doesn't always produce the best trap either.Three sets of brand new 991.2 3.0 headers for sale: Kline, Fabspeed, and Vektor Ceramic Coated
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04102011, 11:02 PM #13Timeout
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As the season starts to open up, I feel its a good time to bump this. may or may not believe in it, but foodforthought

11082011, 06:04 PM #14Guest Vendor
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This post is awesome, great info and totally lines up with all my runs at the strip..getting a sub 1.7 60' should squeeze me into 10s

11082011, 06:32 PM #15Member
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11082011, 06:43 PM #16
It looks like it's about right. After plugging in some of my old GTI number, I got 324HP, which seems pretty close to being correct with all that I had done. It shows 433hp for the 335. I'm guessing that this is pretty close +/ about 10 hp or so.

11082011, 06:45 PM #17

11082011, 07:23 PM #18Member
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That scenario doesn't really work though because slicks expand thus increasing the overall tire diameter which is more condusive to higher speeds because of the effective change in gear ratio. I agree that hooking doesn't decrease your trap though. I tracked my car a bunch of times and never saw a drop in trap from a good launch. In fact, my traps were always consistent as long as I didn't miss a shift
07 e92 335i Best run: 11.83@ 120.04 w/ 1.84 60' & 2127 DA

11092011, 02:48 AM #19

09012012, 03:08 AM #20Member
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Easy 9's? JB4 tuned BMW F92 M8 S63TU2 V8...
Does the F92 M8 have a slight advantage...
Today, 03:40 PM