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    • Stock BMW F13 M6 Competition Vbox testing and run vs. ECU tuned Mercedes-AMG GT S M177

      The BMW F13 M6 and F10 M5 are in their element when highway racing. The S63TU V8 is very stout even in stock form as this Competition edition shows. To be fair the M6 Competition is akin to having a mild tune with a factory warranty backing it.


      The first portion of the video shows the M6 running to 300 kph and doing some Vbox testing:


      The AMG GT S is lighter than the M6 by roughly 700 pounds. It is similar in the sense of being a rear wheel drive car with a dual clutch transmission and a twin turbo V8. The M178 is smaller at 4.0 liters of displacement but this example is tuned by Sportmile Polska which gets 631 horsepower out of it:


      The AMG GT S pulls but the M6 hangs in there quite well. If the M6 gets a solid tune it likely comes out on top in a rematch:


      This article was originally published in forum thread: Stock BMW F13 M6 Competition Vbox testing and run vs. ECU tuned Mercedes-AMG GT S M177 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 19 Comments
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Love it. I've been highly considering picking up a 650 coupe and throwing downpipes and a tune on it. Insane value for the $$.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Love it. I've been highly considering picking up a 650 coupe and throwing downpipes and a tune on it. Insane value for the $$.
        Some pretty good turbo options coming for the N63TU I hear as well...
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Some pretty good turbo options coming for the N63TU I hear as well...
        Click here to enlarge

        The pure options already provide more power than the trans/bottom end can take without some ugprades.
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Love it. I've been highly considering picking up a 650 coupe and throwing downpipes and a tune on it. Insane value for the $$.
        Don't do it, that'll be your biggest financial mistake. The N63 is the absolute worst BMW engine you can purchase along with the N20. Matter of fact, the N63 is going through a national recall for inept oiling/cylinder oil starvation.

        It's an inherently terribly designed engine; I've personally seen so many of them coming in for rebuilds/being sent off to BMW for new engines. Do not get 50i models from BMW; there's a reason why the I6/40i models sell for more on average than an equivalently equipped 50i model.

        As an up & coming car reviewer, I'd highly recommend sticking to ///M V8's (S63tu) and BMW's bread and butter I6. The I4's and non ///M V8's are an absolutely waste of your time for anything outside a lease and are essentially ticking time-bombs. Avoid the N63 like the plague!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld Click here to enlarge
        Don't do it, that'll be your biggest financial mistake. The N63 is the absolute worst BMW engine you can purchase along with the N20. Matter of fact, the N63 is going through a national recall for inept oiling/cylinder oil starvation.
        All F13 650i's except 2012 are N63TU.
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        All F13 650i's except 2012 are N63TU.
        There's been, as of recently, 3 TU (technical update) variants. Even with the 2nd iteration people were still experiencing the same issues and BMW issuing a "quiet" recall. Again, I personally wouldn't touch that engine with a 100ft pole. And I've personally seen a myriad of them in my mechanic shop with almost always the same underlying issue--oil starvation.

        Hell, even a dealership I do videos for have had to replace two N63 engines, one in a 13' and a 15' that they've sold in a small span of three months that I've been working with them.

        You're far better off with a M278. Again, I would strongly advise not getting a 50i' model for anything other than a lease.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld Click here to enlarge
        You're far better off with a M278.
        LOL no thanks
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        LOL no thanks
        At least the engine won't spontaneously seize up, lmaoo. It's not a matter of "if" with the N63, but rather "when". I'm serious Sticky and for anyone else that may be reading Click here to enlarge
      1. maxnix's Avatar
        maxnix -
        So I wonder what the OCI is on these failed N63TU? I know the original factory recommended 15K led to valve train problems on the N54/55 according to my independent tech.

        The thought of doing a walnut blasting to remove carbon build up on the low side of the hot vee design intake ports seems extraordinarily difficult to me.
      1. Chris1284b's Avatar
        Chris1284b -
        Great comparison! Just drove the GT S with a Stage 1 turbo upgrade. Mid engine design gives this car lots of grip. The tires didn't even spin.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld Click here to enlarge
        At least the engine won't spontaneously seize up, lmaoo. It's not a matter of "if" with the N63, but rather "when". I'm serious Sticky and for anyone else that may be reading
        Right but isn't the issue mostly with the N63 and not the N63TU?
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        From what I've read online and personally seen, it's both. The same issue still effects the N63TU.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld Click here to enlarge
        Don't do it, that'll be your biggest financial mistake. The N63 is the absolute worst BMW engine you can purchase along with the N20. Matter of fact, the N63 is going through a national recall for inept oiling/cylinder oil starvation.

        It's an inherently terribly designed engine; I've personally seen so many of them coming in for rebuilds/being sent off to BMW for new engines. Do not get 50i models from BMW; there's a reason why the I6/40i models sell for more on average than an equivalently equipped 50i model.

        As an up & coming car reviewer, I'd highly recommend sticking to ///M V8's (S63tu) and BMW's bread and butter I6. The I4's and non ///M V8's are an absolutely waste of your time for anything outside a lease and are essentially ticking time-bombs. Avoid the N63 like the plague!
        Since the N63TU and S63 share so much in common, what is different with the oiling stategy between the two engines?
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Since the N63TU and S63 share so much in common, what is different with the oiling stategy between the two engines?
        The S63 has unique cooling and oil passages compared to the N63, as well as a higher flowing fuel system (2900psi vs 5000psi in S63tu).

        They both use aluminum pistons with forged-steel connecting rods + crankshafts, but the S63tu piston's design features an additional groove below the piston and eight vs. four drain holes in the oil scraper ring groove--made to reduce to possibility of oil blowing past the piston rings during high rpm's.

        The N63 circulates oil using only one pump at the rear of the engine, while the S63tu adds another oil pickup + pump at the front of sump, with an electronically controlled valve to better modulate oil pressure/delivery. Also carrying a bit more oil (11.2qt vs 10.6qts) due to an oil-to-air heat exchanger mounted below the radiator as opposed to using an oil-to-liquid cooler that's mounted basically in the middle of the hot-V-design (death valley). The S63 also collects exhaust gasses differently in the name of less exhaust-gas recirculation compared to the N63.

        At the end of the day, BMW made it a concerted effort to make oiling a better priority in the M product, as they should, but it's become apparent that the S63 oil delivery designs are/is vital for the engine, while the N63 is intrinsically lacking.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Since the N63TU and S63 share so much in common, what is different with the oiling stategy between the two engines?
        Here's an old article I wrote some of you might appreciate but things changed with the TU iteration: https://www.bimmerboost.com/content....and-S63-motors
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld Click here to enlarge
        The S63 has unique cooling and oil passages compared to the N63, as well as a higher flowing fuel system (2900psi vs 5000psi in S63tu).

        They both use aluminum pistons with forged-steel connecting rods + crankshafts, but the S63tu piston's design features an additional groove below the piston and eight vs. four drain holes in the oil scraper ring groove--made to reduce to possibility of oil blowing past the piston rings during high rpm's.

        The N63 circulates oil using only one pump at the rear of the engine, while the S63tu adds another oil pickup + pump at the front of sump, with an electronically controlled valve to better modulate oil pressure/delivery. Also carrying a bit more oil (11.2qt vs 10.6qts) due to an oil-to-air heat exchanger mounted below the radiator as opposed to using an oil-to-liquid cooler that's mounted basically in the middle of the hot-V-design (death valley). The S63 also collects exhaust gasses differently in the name of less exhaust-gas recirculation compared to the N63.

        At the end of the day, BMW made it a concerted effort to make oiling a better priority in the M product, as they should, but it's become apparent that the S63 oil delivery designs are/is vital for the engine, while the N63 is intrinsically lacking.

        Call me crazy, but it seems like none of the upgrades you mention address what i would assume would cause oil starvation issues on the n63tu. The more people i talk to the more im beginning to think your claims are fairly baseless...

        Seems the s63 oiling would obviously be designed for maintaining higher pressure under high G's, for obvious reasons.
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Call me crazy, but it seems like none of the upgrades you mention address what i would assume would cause oil starvation issues on the n63tu. The more people i talk to the more im beginning to think your claims are fairly baseless...

        Seems the s63 oiling would obviously be designed for maintaining higher pressure under high G's, for obvious reasons.
        You don't have to believe me, it's your money. I just know what I see on a fairly consistent basis + you can google N63 oil problems and see the countless forum posts of people experiencing 'seized n63tu;'. There's a reason BMW is doing a "quiet recall", but as aforementioned, you are more than free to do as you will.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by YouAreMyWorld Click here to enlarge
        You don't have to believe me, it's your money. I just know what I see on a fairly consistent basis + you can google N63 oil problems and see the countless forum posts of people experiencing 'seized n63tu;'. There's a reason BMW is doing a "quiet recall", but as aforementioned, you are more than free to do as you will.
        Does the oiling issue carry on to the S63TU at all?
      1. YouAreMyWorld's Avatar
        YouAreMyWorld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Does the oiling issue carry on to the S63TU at all?
        As far as I'm aware, no. Even though the 'changes' may seem subtle, they appear to alleviate said issue better on the S63tu.