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  1. #1
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    Brad @ Evosport Suggests MHP LT Headers Cause Transmission Failures, ROFL!!!

    Taken from post #195 of this thread on MBWorld: http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c63-am...-63-amg-8.html


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brad@evosport
    Actually, they can be broken by either. I have seen high HP cars with low torque (BMW Forced Induction M3's) rip apart transmissions way faster then AMG high TQ cars. It is all about the package, the way power is delivered, etc.
    That's actually not true it was the rpm not the HP that killed them. As posted on MBW by another poster: 1) Torque 2) RPM 3) Heat are the biggest killers of transmissions.

    However, you are on to a very good point. In another thread, we are talking about headers. 4-1 v 4-2-1. We tried both, use the Try-y. The 4-1 produced more torque down low, but far too much. Why would you add more tq to a tq heavy car. That is counter-intuitive. To cars with low tq, you tune more tq in. To cars with low hp (relative to tq), you tune more hp in (at least we do). It is possible that Keith is breaking his trans/converter due to the package he has. We found all kinds of issues with the 4-1 as far as the torque limitations, the drive line shock, the erratic nature of acceleration as the electronics fought the car. Overall, the car was faster and better/smoother to drive with the try-y. So, yes, there is one very fundamental difference between a Keith's and Jim's cars - the header design.
    The ignorance is simply astonishing.

    First, I'd like to see a picture of evosports 4 into 1 headers, they never made them because they couldn't get them to fit because they don't have talented enough fabricators--that's the only reason not to use a 4 into 1 vs Tri-Y. So again where are the pics? Click here to enlarge

    So the 4 into 1 produced so much more torque down low that it was actually too much? Being that you can't make enough torque N/A to even come close to damaging the trans unless it's seriously abused (remember Keith's lasted over 26K miles and was never driven lightly with over 150+ 1/4 mile passes, 3 standing mile events, road course events at Roebling and Sebring, and his lead foot during daily driving). So according to Brad the 4 into 1 evidently adds power adder type torque at low rpm. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brad@evosport
    Why would you add more tq to a heavy car. That is counter intuitive. To cars with low tq, you tune more tq in. To cars with low hp (relative to tq), you tune more hp in (at least we do).
    WHAT????

    I'm not even sure how to respond to that. Prior AMGs were torque monsters due to the twin K24s or 2.3L IHI twin screw, this helped because all AMGs are heavy by nature. Of course the heavier the car the more torque you want, more torque also equals better performance as long as traction is available--and with DRs we've proven it is time and time again.

    That comment alone displays exactly how much knowledge Brad has about cars in general which is to say none. Possibly the dumbest quote I've ever read on the internet and also goes to show exactly why none of their M156s aside from those with over 100K invested on nitrous can run with one of our S2 C63s N/A. Great gameplan guys, ROFL. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brad@evosport
    We found all kinds of issues with the 4-1 as far as the torque limitations, the drive line shock, the erratic nature of acceleration as the electronics fought the car. Overall, the car was faster and better/smoother to drive with the try-y. So, yes, there is one very fundamental difference between a Keith's and Jim's cars - the header design.
    Again pics of your 4 into 1s please.

    Driveline shock?

    This is not a stick car dumping the clutch at 8000rpm on launch, we have a 2400rpm stall converter and 7 speed conventional auto paired with numerically low rear end gearing. Please explain how anyone can shock anything with that setup?

    Erratic nature of acceleration due to the electronics fighting the car?

    LOL, I have ~50 customers with our headers/tuning that will be glad to tell you just how $#@!ing dumb that comment is, however the statement is so far overboard I don't think it will be necessary. Never had a CEL, never had a return, never had a complaint about any of our S2 packages or anything else for that matter. As any one of our customers will tell you, including those that have had other brands of tuning previous to ours, our drivability at both part and WOT is second to none.

    Overall the car was faster and better/smoother to drive with the Try-Y

    What's a Try-Y? Ironic because in a subsequent post in the same MBW thread when questioned about his technical background Brad brags about his JD/MBA. Nice!

    Faster, better, smoother and stuck in the 12s.

    Thank you for posting Brad, each and everytime you try to attempt to contribute or skew a technical discussion you simply display your blatant ignorance and lack of general automotive knowledge. Forget specialty discussion, stick to cosmetics and changing oil (you may want to read up on the later suggestion before attempting).

    What makes this post even more ridiculous is Brad's lack of acknowledgement that Keith has significantly more miles, passes and overall abuse on his car, which is 200lbs heavier than JRs and also has sprayed larger shots of nitrous. Nitrous as any PA will do exponentially increases torque, and again torque kills drivelines. In the history of the world, and I realize our header design is superior but thanks for confirming Brad, no LT will add 100lb/ft of torque at low rpm vs another LT.

    Brad blaming our headers for Keith's tranny going is like and I quote from another in the thread "Someone stabbing themselves in the heart with a 3 foot knife then saying it was the tetanus shot that killed them."

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    So the 4 into 1 produced so much more torque down low that it was actually too much? Being that you can't make enough torque N/A to even come close to damaging the trans unless it's seriously abused (remember Keith's lasted over 26K miles and was never driven lightly with over 150+ 1/4 mile passes, 3 standing mile events, road course events at Roebling and Sebring, and his lead foot during daily driving). So according to Brad the 4 into 1 evidently adds power adder type torque at low rpm.
    Ok, this is the point I would take issue with as well.

    While denouncing the 4-1 he states it produces much more torque down low? Why exactly wouldn't I want this torque down low at the strip? Uh, if launching, I want more torque.

    Also, if you are adding torque you are adding HP and vice versa. I think what he means to say is they try to tune for HP up top. I don't see why you can't have both with the 4-1, a fatter curve is preferable though even though yes, it is harder on the driveline. The point is more power/torque when going to aftermarket headers, I have never seen adding too much torque down low as a problem.

    Why would the tri-y be smoother?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    hat comment alone displays exactly how much knowledge Brad has about cars in general which is to say none
    I understand the competition here but Brad does have car knowledge and a good amount I would say.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    This is not a stick car dumping the clutch at 8000rpm on launch, we have a 2400rpm stall converter and 7 speed conventional auto paired with numerically low rear end gearing. Please explain how anyone can shock anything with that setup?
    This is true, both cars will have the same stall and are not dumping the clutch at high RPM. In this situation, I want a fatter powerband down low since I can't rev up and dump it like what killed the E46 M3 transmissions he was referring to. That also has to do with the driver skill but that is another topic for another time.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Brad blaming our headers for Keith's tranny going
    When did Keith's tranny go and what steps are being taken for it? As I understand it strengthening it is physically possible but will not change anything due to the torque limitations in the software?
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ok, this is the point I would take issue with as well.
    It's not just one point, if I spent the time I could call him out all day long on technical posts he's made. Including stating 3" was too large for mids on a M156, then after seeing our successes using 3" mids himself, et ad nauseum.

    While denouncing the 4-1 he states it produces much more torque down low? Why exactly wouldn't I want this torque down low at the strip? Uh, if launching, I want more torque.
    Exactly, N/A you want as much torque as possible.

    Also, if you are adding torque you are adding HP and vice versa. I think what he means to say is they try to tune for HP up top. I don't see why you can't have both with the 4-1, a fatter curve is preferable though even though yes, it is harder on the driveline. The point is more power/torque when going to aftermarket headers, I have never seen adding too much torque down low as a problem.
    How can you tune for HP up top? How can you not tune for it across the board? Area under the curve wins races (avg hp/tq). He has no clue and this statement furthers my point.

    Why would the tri-y be smoother?
    There is no explanation whatsoever for that statement. Just Brad being Brad.

    I understand the competition here but Brad does have car knowledge and a good amount I would say.
    Chassis and suspension tuning? Maybe, can't say for sure. Anything driveline related BULL$#@!. My deceased grandmother could own Brad in a technical discussion. Seriously, the guys down at my local jiffy lube have more experience and knowledge pertaining to engines/trannys than Brad. In all our years going back and forth not once has he posted anything even remotely correct about engines or transmissions. He knows nothing and this is just another example highlighting his ignorance.

    This is true, both cars will have the same stall and are not dumping the clutch at high RPM. In this situation, I want a fatter powerband down low since I can't rev up and dump it like what killed the E46 M3 transmissions he was referring to. That also has to do with the driver skill but that is another topic for another time.
    You want power across the board, which certainly includes down low for launch. He should know the diff between a high rpm manual tans dump and coming out of the hole with an auto.

    When did Keith's tranny go and what steps are being taken for it? As I understand it strengthening it is physically possible but will not change anything due to the torque limitations in the software?
    After eight 160 shot passes, during which time it was slipping on each pass, also smoked the converter. We posted about it when he was testing with spray, which is why we decided to back off (keep torque down) go with cams then add smaller amounts of spray later.

    Nothing new on software development for the 722.9.

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    Brad also states that he's built motors, transmissions, and rear diffs himself. Hahahahaahahahhahahahah!!!!!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Exactly, N/A you want as much torque as possible.
    Yep.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    There is no explanation whatsoever for that statement.
    Well then it needs to be dismissed as something without support.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    How can you tune for HP up top? How can you not tune for it across the board? Area under the curve wins races (avg hp/tq). He has no clue and this statement furthers my point.
    Well you can get aggressive cams and tune the car for power up top. Area under the curve is what wins races and you should be tuning for it across the board.

    I think he is saying his headers don't add much torque down low but give you something up top. Either way, I want it everywhere, down low + up top as I want the most area under the curve. Like I said, I don't see why your headers would not accommodate this.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Chassis and suspension tuning? Maybe, can't say for sure. Anything driveline related BULL$#@!. My deceased grandmother could own Brad in a technical discussion. Seriously, the guys down at my local jiffy lube have more experience and knowledge pertaining to engines/trannys than Brad. In all our years going back and forth not once has he posted anything even remotely correct about engines or transmissions. He knows nothing and this is just another example highlighting his ignorance.
    Chassis and suspension tuning would definitely be a good area. I haven't seen all the statements on MBworld regarding the M156 so I can not comment although I do find the comments on the 3" mids interesting.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    After eight 160 shot passes, during which time it was slipping on each pass, also smoked the converter. We posted about it when he was testing with spray, which is why we decided to back off (keep torque down) go with cams then add smaller amounts of spray later.
    Seems by launching at the strip with a 160 shot he knew what he was doing and secondly, that should prove that there are many other factors to take into account with the trans. If it lasted as long as it did with passes using that large of a shot of nitrous that should tell someone headers alone aren't going to ruin this trans.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    Well then it needs to be dismissed as something without support.
    It needs to be recognized as one of the most assinine statements ever posted by a shop owner.


    Well you can get aggressive cams and tune the car for power up top. Area under the curve is what wins races and you should be tuning for it across the board.
    That is true however Evosport doesn't have cams for the M156/M159, actually they don't make cams for anything, they can't. Agreed with the rest.

    I think he is saying his headers don't add much torque down low but give you something up top. Either way, I want it everywhere, down low + up top as I want the most area under the curve. Like I said, I don't see why your headers would not accommodate this.
    He specifically stated that it's possible that one type of header can theoretically produce 100lb/ft of torque more at low rpm on the same motor, which is simply impossible. Why even waste the time designing a LT header that only gains up top? None of what he says makes any sense at all.

    Chassis and suspension tuning would definitely be a good area. I haven't seen all the statements on MBworld regarding the M156 so I can not comment although I do find the comments on the 3" mids interesting.
    There are dozens. If it's driveline related you mind as well call Pep Boys.

    Seems by launching at the strip with a 160 shot he knew what he was doing and secondly, that should prove that there are many other factors to take into account with the trans. If it lasted as long as it did with passes using that large of a shot of nitrous that should tell someone headers alone aren't going to ruin this trans.
    Exactly literally hundreds of variables and he seems to want to highlight one that is simply physically impossible. Fact: The only way any set of LT headers is going to ruin any trans is if the primarys run too close to the pan and cook the trans fluid. Ours don't, end of story.

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    WTF headers that i been running for 2 years and over 100 drag passes HOTLAPPING lmfao what a clown.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mthis Click here to enlarge
    WTF headers that i been running for 2 years and over 100 drag passes HOTLAPPING lmfao what a clown.
    How do you feel about the headers? 100 passes is well... a lot, almost twice as long as a manual clutch should last at the strip.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    umm...you need to make less torque? What?!

    I never heard of that one before.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mthis Click here to enlarge
    WTF headers that i been running for 2 years and over 100 drag passes HOTLAPPING lmfao what a clown.
    I think you're making too much torque Hagi, seriously, think about removing them before they destroy your trans. Plus I know you can't stand the drivability problems a 4 into 1 design provide, erratic throttle and the car's electronics fighting the engine the whole time. Let's go with Try-Ys and make your car smoother/faster with less area under the curve.

    LOL.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    umm...you need to make less torque? What?!

    I never heard of that one before.
    Yeah that was a first for me as well, shocking.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge.

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    that man has some ugly teeth.

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    That 26K mile stock tranny was a champ and only began to slip along with the converter after the spray. Even when slipping with NOS it was ok N/A but wouldn't have lasted much longer. Ask Keith what the fluid looked like. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    What's a Try-Y?
    "Nice Try Y."

    Move around where you pause when you say it, and it can mean different things.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    "Nice Try Y."

    Move around where you pause when you say it, and it can mean different things.
    LOL, Brett you kill me! Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How do you feel about the headers? 100 passes is well... a lot, almost twice as long as a manual clutch should last at the strip.
    Love the headers, There Is no 1 bad thing I can say about them,
    100 I was not being that trus it's more like 120 plus some that I threw out, no problem with trans and I hot lap the chit out of this car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    I think you're making too much torque Hagi, seriously, think about removing them before they destroy your trans. Plus I know you can't stand the drivability problems a 4 into 1 design provide, erratic throttle and the car's electronics fighting the engine the whole time. Let's go with Try-Ys and make your car smoother/faster with less area under the curve.

    LOL.
    The only way does headers are coming off is if I have to get a new trans thru the dealer lol and then they will go rite back on Click here to enlarge.
    Is it possible to make some headers that will add more power if so I'm innnnnnn.

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