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    Headers...??? why style " X " works for engine " Y " ?

    It seemed like a good topic...not that I know $#@! about it...but am curious.

    There are these style headers listed below. Now what are the pluses and minuses to each...to my knowledge which maybe completely wrong...long tubes provided more low end and shortys provided high end. What about 4 into 1 and Tri-Y? what is the science behind them, is one better or does it depend on the engine? if so why is one better for the 6.3 V8 ? I was reading on some muscle car/drag forums and read some guy saying he lost low end with the 4 into 1 and wanted to go back to his tri-y header(maybe there were other differences in the header, but didnt state). So it just seemed like an educational thread topic...always good to learn new things.

    Here was a list: maybe someone can give the ideas behind them? As different companies take a different approach.

    Full-length - Final collector is located after the last bend.
    Mid-length - Final collector is located before the last bend but after the top portion of the down-pipe and/or primary cat.
    Short-length - Final collector is located at the top portion of the down-pipe and/or primary cat. Commonly called shorties.
    Manifolds - Similar to shorties but they do not have individual primary tubes. They are often called log-style.
    Long-tubes - A specific style of full-length header where all four primary tubes are long and extend past the final bend before entering into a collector.
    4-into-1 - A header style where four primary tubes on each side enter into one merge collector.
    Tri-Y - A header style where two pairs of primary tubes on each side enter into their own Y-collector or merge. The two secondary tubes coming from the first Y-collectors enter into a final Y-collector or merge. Two 2-into-1s flowing into another 2-into-1 on each side.
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    Good thread topic but an extremely complex subject.

    Motors are all different as well, so what might compliment one powerband may not compliment another.

    In the case of the M156 in particular, I'm not sure what style the guys with aftermarket headers are running. Hopefully MHP can chime in.

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    so maybe we can discuss it on the m156. I was always tought the long tubes = more low end and shortys = more high end. Even so with full exhaust systems. Take the RS4 and the R8 for example, I believe the R8 makes it power up higher due to shorter exhaust from the mid-engine placement compared to front engine. (although I could be wrong on that too, I remember reading the stats somewhere)
    Current:
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    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD Click here to enlarge
    Take the RS4 and the R8 for example, I believe the R8 makes it power up higher due to shorter exhaust from the mid-engine placement compared to front engine. (although I could be wrong on that too, I remember reading the stats somewhere)
    There is more than one variable with the R8, dual throttle bodies and also a dry sump.

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    Good point. Didn't realize it had dual throttle bodies. Hopefully some people knowledgeable will chime in.
    Current:
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    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    The long and short of it is Tri-Ys are a design concession that yield more room but less avg hp/tq than 4 into 1s. Look at any F1/Indy header from 1990+ they are all 4-5 into 1. We are the only ones with true longtube headers for the M156, not only that but the longest primarys, the correct primary diameter, the best high velocity merge collectors, perfectly parallel cut and welds, etc.

    Tri-Ys were originally conceived by Ford in the late 1960s due to a lack of space, frankly I hadn't seen a Tri-Y in years maybe over a decade until the MB scene. At NO point in the rpm range is a Tri-Y superior to a 4 into 1.

    Fact is (and this is not a dig at anyone, it's been 2 years now...) MHP is the only manufacturer that has been able to properly design and fit a correctly sized 4 into 1 header into a C63. It's not easy which is why everyone else takes the easier route.

    I saw on the net the other day someone stating not to do longtube headers because you would lose low end torque. People like that should be instantly banned from forums, that is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. LTs gain across the board vs the factory manifolds.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    There is more than one variable with the R8, dual throttle bodies and also a dry sump.
    We have dual TBs too, 74mm Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD Click here to enlarge
    so maybe we can discuss it on the m156. I was always tought the long tubes = more low end and shortys = more high end. Even so with full exhaust systems. Take the RS4 and the R8 for example, I believe the R8 makes it power up higher due to shorter exhaust from the mid-engine placement compared to front engine. (although I could be wrong on that too, I remember reading the stats somewhere)
    Length of exhaust has nothing to do with an engine's operating range.

    N/A Potential power is dictated by the cylinder heads themselves, cam/cams, intake manifold (runner length, diameter), and other ancillary parts determine how much of that potential is reached and at what rpm.

    FI it's all about the size of the turbo or blower.

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    The comparison to a 18,000 RPM motor that dumps the exhaust immediately after the collector is just a bad example. How about a 9k rpm 358ci engine as seen in NASCAR. They all run Tri-Y's... Theres only teams spending 10's of millions of dollars on on R&D. as NASCAR is the biggest racing sport in the world. So why did they come to the conclusion that a Tri-Y is better suited than the 4 into 1? You don't and i'm sure you wont believe me. However you should believe Jack Burns of Burns Stainless.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Headers? Pffffttt. Turbo powwwwwaaaa!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hooleyboy Click here to enlarge
    The comparison to a 18,000 RPM motor that dumps the exhaust immediately after the collector is just a bad example. How about a 9k rpm 358ci engine as seen in NASCAR. They all run Tri-Y's... Theres only teams spending 10's of millions of dollars on on R&D. as NASCAR is the biggest racing sport in the world. So why did they come to the conclusion that a Tri-Y is better suited than the 4 into 1? You don't and i'm sure you wont believe me. However you should believe Jack Burns of Burns Stainless.
    Because NASCAR cars have a full exhaust?

    You think a F1 budget is less than a NASCAR teams? Click here to enlarge

    Yes a 358 CI pushrod V8 spinning to 9k is a great comparison to a M156? No it's not.

    Burns makes fine header components but doesn't build headers themselves so please keep in mind that not all Tri-Ys are created equally. You don't see 13 non parallel cut and welds or filler rod in their header kits either.

    I guess when any Tri-Y header/tune cars runs with one of ours I'll give the 1960s design another look, we seem to be doing well enough with 4 into 1s amazingly enough. Click here to enlarge

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    Andy, I run a 4 into 1 header on my car. I dont think there is anything wrong with them at all. I just think the Tri-y is good too. In regards to the NASCAR thing. I don't think its that great of a comparison, but its more realistic in ci and RPM over a F1 motor... Look we are still running internal combustion engines, we still use Penicillin.. Why? Because they work and both have been around longer than we have. I think its safe to say the 4-1 header is not new tech as well. The main thing that has giving the the Tri-Y the rep for low end power vs's top end power. Is because of... yes space in some cases. The other being designs that are not thought out. In most cases space restrictions will end up making a poor Tri-Y. So if you look at the import tuner world. You can get a cheap Tri-Y that is not thought out well. Pit that against an easy to make 4-1 header and the 4-1 header will make more power. However if you take a nicely designed Tr-Y vs a comparable 4-1 on a N/A engine. My moneys on the Tri-Y. If it was a supercharged engine... 4-1 all the way.

    Burns does build headers, just on a custom level. They don't have off the shelf headers if thats what you mean?

    Whats the rule of thumb when mandrel bending? 6 inches from bend to bend? Meaning you can't have another mandrel bend inside 6 inches of an other?

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    interesting. I like seeing information like this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hooleyboy Click here to enlarge
    Andy, I run a 4 into 1 header on my car. I dont think there is anything wrong with them at all. I just think the Tri-y is good too. In regards to the NASCAR thing. I don't think its that great of a comparison, but its more realistic in ci and RPM over a F1 motor... Look we are still running internal combustion engines, we still use Penicillin.. Why? Because they work and both have been around longer than we have.

    I think its safe to say the 4-1 header is not new tech as well. The main thing that has giving the the Tri-Y the rep for low end power vs's top end power. Is because of... yes space in some cases. The other being designs that are not thought out. In most cases space restrictions will end up making a poor Tri-Y. So if you look at the import tuner world. You can get a cheap Tri-Y that is not thought out well. Pit that against an east to make 4-1 header and the 4-1 header will make more power. However if you take a nicely designed Tr-Y vs a comparable 4-1 on a N/A engine. My moneys on the Tri-Y. If it was a supercharged engine... 4-1 all the way.

    Burns does build headers, just on a custom level. They don't have off the shelf headers if thats what you mean?
    I'm actually allergic to penicillin. LMAO. Click here to enlarge I know, no relevance, just adding levity.

    Yes they are both IC engines. CUP motor is closer to M156 in displacement and rpm, however method of filling is 100% different than a 4 valve. I think that's probably the most important distinction between the two.

    Also FI motors have completely different requirements and limiting factors, here's why:

    2 valves fill via RAM tuning or inertia filling, that is moving a single big heavy valve up and out of the way as quickly as you can as high as you can without breaking anything. 4 valves fill via quick changes in valve lift, massive curtain area, and at higher rpm via reversion. All things equal a 4 valve head will have 2x the velocity as a comparable 2v head (Ford modular 2v vs 4v is a good comparison since the bottom ends are identical. Velocity is King in any N/A application. That means throughout the entire system, including In and out of the chamber. The longer your primary tubes the more velocity you will generate, the better the merge collector (properly sized reduction, cone size and length, spike shape and length) the higher the velocity, using the correct size primarys again increases exhaust gas velocity.

    We maximize those 3 most important aspects of header design and we do it via a 4 into 1 design. You cannot fit a proper collector into a Tri-Y header and the majority of gains in a LT header design vs another LT header design (not vs a $#@! factory log manifold) come from the collector. Why is this? Because the collector is responsible for generating velocity, that's why it necks down, and that's why it expands in the shape and size it does. That is the key Mike, N/A that's what matters.

    Comparatively speaking doing anything with FI is just easier across the board.

    FI, the only thing that matters is the blower is supplying the velocity and mass of air through the motor. The blower is the limiting factor. The blower doesn't give a $#@! what's on the other side of the motor. On a GT500 (has decent factory manifolds and exhaust vs any MB or AMG in terms of flow) a full exhaust with no cats may gain 30rwhp at 700rwhp. Honestly it doesn't matter which design you use here but I would personally again go with a 4 into 1 design with cone/spike collector. We see gains with headers with MBs on FI cars mainly due to the elimination of cats and because the factory manifolds are absolute $#@! by comparison to a modern PD blower exh manifold ala CTS-V, B8 S4, etc.

    Burns used to build custom headers, AFAIK they no longer do this (just build the parts to sell to others to make them), the last time I spoke with anyone there was 6 mos ago. I understand their logic for doing so. I also understand that it is easier to sell prefab tri-y bends than it is 4 into 1s; basically Jack could have written that the other way around if he wanted to.

    Again, and I say this humbly. If someone beats us with comparable ECU tuning and a Tri-Y header I'll rethink my stance, but until then the facts above combined with our on track performances across the world have my mind made up.

    Thanks for a respectful discussion.

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    I don't blame you. In all honesty the money is in keeping the benders running. If they dont build headers anymore I would totally understand why. I've debated on dropping the loot on a 60K bender, but I use the guys next door and its a good hook up. I would bet if I had a mandrel bender of my own, I would have to run it 24/7, selling bends, and what not to break even. Needless to say cracking into the tubing bend market would be a failed venture. Craigslist had a mandrel bender with 1.24" - 3" dies. It was listed for 1 day and sold for $6k. I would have bought that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hooleyboy Click here to enlarge
    I don't blame you. In all honesty the money is in keeping the benders running. If they dont build headers anymore I would totally understand why. I've debated on dropping the loot on a 60K bender, but I use the guys next door and its a good hook up. I would bet if I had a mandrel bender of my own, I would have to run it 24/7, selling bends, and what not to break even. Needless to say cracking into the tubing bend market would be a failed venture. Craigslist had a mandrel bender with 1.24" - 3" dies. It was listed for 1 day and sold for $6k. I would have bought that.
    You can find used benders everywhere for dirt cheap, firesale auctions, etc I saw a million dollar McKee bender sell for $90K a few mos ago, just unbelievable. That is the $#@!ty reality of the business that we're in, in the present day, well $#@!ty for them good for others I guess. This business peaked in 2002 and has been downhill ever since, even Essen was dead this year, first time ever. Frankly we are 90% sure we are going to stop building headers and just build jigs/fixtures/skeletal sets/bend files/prototype set locked in place and sell them to tuners/businesses that want to build their own headers. You pick the car, we source it, fabricate everything you need based on your specs, and in 8 weeks we give you everything you need to build headers of the same quality as our C63s for any make/model.

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    hm im assuming it would cost a lot to have you fab up a set of headers for an LS engine in an E28?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    hm im assuming it would cost a lot to have you fab up a set of headers for an LS engine in an E28?
    PM me with details Matt.

    Thanks

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Length of exhaust has nothing to do with an engine's operating range.

    .
    really? but then why wouldnt someone just run headers out...with no piping? isnt it a lack of back pressure
    Current:
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD Click here to enlarge
    really? but then why wouldnt someone just run headers out...with no piping? isnt it a lack of back pressure
    Yes but that would kill power everywhere not just at certain points in the band. This comment pertains to street and street'/strip motors not balls out race motors. With a spec race motor you can have instances where the collector of the header provides all the backpressure you need but we're talking 17:1 C/R and a ton of rpm.

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    Great info here
    JB4LIFE

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    We have dual TBs too, 74mm Click here to enlarge
    I know, but I was saying in relation to the RS4.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I know, but I was saying in relation to the RS4.
    I stand corrected. Click here to enlarge

    I figured you'd know that since you posted the RT TB pics but guess my illiteracy got in the way.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    I stand corrected. Click here to enlarge

    I figured you'd know that since you posted the RT TB pics but guess my illiteracy got in the way.
    No worries.

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    wanted to thank superlubricity for the data about the headers at the top.

    was hoping this thread would go further, Ill have to find a good place to learn about this stuff. Any recommendations? books?
    Current:
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    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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