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  1. #26
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    got ya....
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    I am curious why Audi went from tubo to s/c to lager displacement? Why not bypass the breasts and go straight to the vagina with a turbo and large displacement? I have noticed that OEM turbo motors don't rev that high as say a S85.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BigM62 Click here to enlarge
    I am curious why Audi went from tubo to s/c to lager displacement? Why not bypass the breasts and go straight to the vagina with a turbo and large displacement? I have noticed that OEM turbo motors don't rev that high as say a S85.
    I think Audi was trying to be BMW but they should have just stuck with their turbo motors. The B5 S4 was loved not because it revved high but because it was a turbocharged all wheel drive German sport sedan. It offered something different.

    When they tried to go naturally aspirated and high revving it just didn't work with their heavier platforms and the drivetrain losses of Quattro. They need the torque more. BMW's formula works on lighter RWD cars much, much better.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think Audi was trying to be BMW but they should have just stuck with their turbo motors. The B5 S4 was loved not because it revved high but because it was a turbocharged all wheel drive German sport sedan. It offered something different.

    When they tried to go naturally aspirated and high revving it just didn't work with their heavier platforms and the drivetrain losses of Quattro. They need the torque more. BMW's formula works on lighter RWD cars much, much better.
    And BMW is making lighter cars for the future/present. I think some of the BMW brass are driving turbo 2002's and M30 M3's.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think Audi was trying to be BMW but they should have just stuck with their turbo motors. The B5 S4 was loved not because it revved high but because it was a turbocharged all wheel drive German sport sedan. It offered something different.

    When they tried to go naturally aspirated and high revving it just didn't work with their heavier platforms and the drivetrain losses of Quattro. They need the torque more. BMW's formula works on lighter RWD cars much, much better.
    Still interesting how nothing changes, the M car is still the fun sideways hooligan car, and the RS is the safer in the winter understeering one.

    Must say I really like the looks of the new M4 and if it is over 400whp it must be great fun Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I could go down to Shelly BMW and tell them I'm interested but I'd be lying. I'm done with BMW.
    why 'done'?

    they've produced what's pretty obviously an excellent package, fairly showing up everyone complaining it wouldn't be a 'true' M car...?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Throttle response.
    just have to learn to compensate for it... throttle response is nice to drive and all, makes things easier, satisfaction, whatever.. but there's not a single competitive non-turbo car in any 'tuner' race i've seen in a long time.

    i don't think there's going to be a single lightning response NA competitive 'performance' car from 2014 on... sure, there will be 'sporty' NA cars, but they'll just be left behind in EVERY category bar 'response'.

    a single negative is a pretty small thing to write-off all interest in a car IMO haha

    would you never consider an MP4/650s (or hell, P1 to an extent barring the best they can do with the electric system) because it lacks throttle response with the turbos?
    boop

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    He's right about the throttle response, although I haven't driven a s55 to confirm, BMW has admitted they lost a bit. The throttle response of the nA m engines of the past is nothing short of amazing, if you haven't driven one you can't be expected to understand.

    I can only hope that as BMW gains experience with turbo m motors, they will find a way to get the throttle response back. Closer to how their NA engines of the past were...
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  8. #33
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    At the 5:06 mark I swear he says the m4 has "3 turbos"

    If that's the case this guy is a complete idiot
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    the throttle response really is a big deal, but the reason i like to consider the turbo M cars true M cars is because BMW works $#@!ing magic with turbos + engine design. they were the best at it back in the 80s in racing and they're still top dog now. then again Mercedes is right there with them with the CLA45. look at how much power these guys are making with such small displacement, it's still amazing
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    "Throttle response"= displacement in my case. When I went from 4.4L to 4.9L with forged internals, "Whoa Nellie!"

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    they've produced what's pretty obviously an excellent package, fairly showing up everyone complaining it wouldn't be a 'true' M car...?
    It's more an M car than a 1M and a great car but it doesn't represent the 'true' M ideals in my mind. If Porsche quit producing the GT3 and only made the turbo what would you think?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    a single negative is a pretty small thing to write-off all interest in a car IMO haha
    I'm not writing off the car I'm writing off BMW.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    would you never consider an MP4/650s (or hell, P1 to an extent barring the best they can do with the electric system) because it lacks throttle response with the turbos?
    No. Because I no longer feel BMW is the enthusiast oriented company it once was or that M cars are as unique, exciting, and well engineered as they once were.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    He's right about the throttle response, although I haven't driven a s55 to confirm, BMW has admitted they lost a bit. The throttle response of the nA m engines of the past is nothing short of amazing, if you haven't driven one you can't be expected to understand.

    I can only hope that as BMW gains experience with turbo m motors, they will find a way to get the throttle response back. Closer to how their NA engines of the past were...
    I think with variable geometry turbos, an electric motor spinning up the turbo shaft, and the right turbos they can get close. Might have to have electric assisted crank shaft as well...to get it super close to the NA feel.
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  13. #38
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    I think what Sticky was trying to say is this new M3 is nothing like any of it's older brothers. Let's be serious for a second, yes it's quick and has a lot of torque. But those of you claims to be true BMW enthusiasts and that's $#@! because M cars were never about that, none of them were torque monsters. Instead they were reasonably weighted cars with legendary chassis designs and motors that revved to the moon, has lightning fast throttle response, and they didn't have to be sledgehammer fast... They were ultimate drivers and handlers, not pseudo drag cars. That's why true enthusiasts don't give a flying $#@! about this car because the RS5 is the superior car for a day in the twisties. Yes the S55 makes me bitter lol

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boostedmaserati Click here to enlarge
    I think what Sticky was trying to say is this new M3 is nothing like any of it's older brothers. Let's be serious for a second, yes it's quick and has a lot of torque. But those of you claims to be true BMW enthusiasts and that's $#@! because M cars were never about that, none of them were torque monsters. Instead they were reasonably weighted cars with legendary chassis designs and motors that revved to the moon, has lightning fast throttle response, and they didn't have to be sledgehammer fast... They were ultimate drivers and handlers, not pseudo drag cars. That's why true enthusiasts don't give a flying $#@! about this car because the RS5 is the superior car for a day in the twisties. Yes the S55 makes me bitter lol
    You said it all very well.

    The only thing I disagree with is the RS5 being the superior car. It isn't. The E46 M3 and E92 M3 are both superior cars to the RS5 if it comes down to driving pleasure. The M4 is as well although it has become as you stated a car with much more of a power/torque emphasis over revs and response.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's more an M car than a 1M and a great car but it doesn't represent the 'true' M ideals in my mind. If Porsche quit producing the GT3 and only made the turbo what would you think?
    what do you mean? the 'm' ideals to me are producing the best possible engineered car given the current automotive industry constraints

    if porsche quit the GT3 (which is possible, as far as i've heard)... ok, i'm sure there's a reason, and they're still amazing cars, the previous GT3's don't stop existing!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No. Because I no longer feel BMW is the enthusiast oriented company it once was or that M cars are as unique, exciting, and well engineered as they once were.
    haha fair enough, that's exactly the opposite to how i feel!

    i feel the cars are even better engineered than they've ever been.. they've taken turbo tech with both hands, direct injection, light weight, carbon fiber, hybrid.. there's no technological pie they're not taking several slices out of.... there's few other cars on the market that compare for most segments.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boostedmaserati Click here to enlarge
    I think what Sticky was trying to say is this new M3 is nothing like any of it's older brothers. Let's be serious for a second, yes it's quick and has a lot of torque. But those of you claims to be true BMW enthusiasts and that's $#@! because M cars were never about that, none of them were torque monsters. Instead they were reasonably weighted cars with legendary chassis designs and motors that revved to the moon, has lightning fast throttle response, and they didn't have to be sledgehammer fast... They were ultimate drivers and handlers, not pseudo drag cars. That's why true enthusiasts don't give a flying $#@! about this car because the RS5 is the superior car for a day in the twisties. Yes the S55 makes me bitter lol
    yeah, sure, and it's not possible (legal) to sell a car with a motor like you all want... they have to keep cars as light as possible.. carbon can only go so far as it's still fairly expensive/intricate.. so electrify more things

    fuel consumption can only get so good on NA motors per horsepower... so have to go turbo

    BMW is working with what they're given, and doing a damn fine job.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    yeah, sure, and it's not possible (legal) to sell a car with a motor like you all want... they have to keep cars as light as possible.. carbon can only go so far as it's still fairly expensive/intricate.. so electrify more things

    fuel consumption can only get so good on NA motors per horsepower... so have to go turbo

    BMW is working with what they're given, and doing a damn fine job.
    i agree, the s55 is the nicest turbo oem motor out so far imo
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    i agree, the s55 is the nicest turbo oem motor out so far imo
    I'd like to get a test drive in one sometime... but on the other hand, don't want to set the benchmark too high hah
    boop

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    I needed to remind the potential m4 buyers at the BMW dealership what a car should sound like.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    i agree, the s55 is the nicest turbo oem motor out so far imo
    Really?? Better than GTR motor? Doubt it ! Or McLaren 12c?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Really?? Better than GTR motor? Doubt it ! Or McLaren 12c?
    Or new California T, same turbo engine will find its way in 458 refresh (with more power).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    yeah, sure, and it's not possible (legal) to sell a car with a motor like you all want... they have to keep cars as light as possible.. carbon can only go so far as it's still fairly expensive/intricate.. so electrify more things

    fuel consumption can only get so good on NA motors per horsepower... so have to go turbo

    BMW is working with what they're given, and doing a damn fine job.
    Totally agree with this!

    Euro rules makes it impossible to build street legal performance NA engines, manufacturers as BMW must adapt even the prancing horse will go DI+turbo...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Really?? Better than GTR motor? Doubt it ! Or McLaren 12c?
    I just watched 6 hrs go a Bentley spanked some McLaren's like they were teenage prom dates.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Really?? Better than GTR motor? Doubt it ! Or McLaren 12c?
    give the s55 credit, it's lower displacement than both those cars and it makes almost 500hp
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    give the s55 credit, it's lower displacement than both those cars and it makes almost 500hp
    i don't know much about the 12c/650s motor specifically (other than that it's pretty awesome and sounds good lol), but the tech that's gone into the S55 is pretty damn current, the cylinder liners, DI system, induction system.. the turbos could have a little more 'tech' in them though.

    better than the GT-R motor for sure IMO (i don't mean in raw power capability, that would be silly to say)... it's just brute boost and displacement haha... better at making power?... see: 'boost and displacement' lol.

    what the S55 gets out of 3L whilst still being drivable/smooth etc... yeah imprissive.
    boop

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