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    C32 blower swap discussion - am I going crazy?

    Some knowledgeable gearheads who frequent this board... please reassure me that I'm not a lunatic:

    http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...ercharger.html

    Click here to enlarge

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    Has anyone ever done this(kb on the c32)? What were the number they netted?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    Has anyone ever done this(kb on the c32)? What were the number they netted?
    The short answer is "no."

    MIDO has a massive thread on MBW; he owns a C32 Wagon (he's in Europe), and is working with a tuning organization named SCRAM for his (now multi-year) ongoing build. It's not a "KB," but it is a 2.6L twin-screw (and is equivalent in execution). He completely built the motor and addressed every possible supporting mod needed, however. Not a straight swap. The C32 already has an Lysolm-based IHI twin-screw S/C, albeit a smaller displacement unit.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Some knowledgeable gearheads who frequent this board... please reassure me that I'm not a lunatic:

    http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...ercharger.html

    http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...razy-pills.jpg
    First of all, no, you are not crazy. I to this day do not understand why people are not swapping the lysholm out. Look at KB and Whipple cobras or lightning, is the Benz really somehow completely different? The principle should hold true.

    Why aren't E55's running big KB's?

    Oh, and even the Jaguar guys are getting into Kenne-Bell upgrades on their cars but they are easier to tune and use Eatons to begin with which are supposedly simpler than the Lysholm.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    The short answer is "no."

    MIDO has a massive thread on MBW; he owns a C32 Wagon (he's in Europe), and is working with a tuning organization named SCRAM for his (now multi-year) ongoing build. It's not a "KB," but it is a 2.6L twin-screw (and is equivalent in execution). He completely built the motor and addressed every possible supporting mod needed, however. Not a straight swap. The C32 already has an Lysolm-based IHI twin-screw S/C, albeit a smaller displacement unit.
    Why not go with a KB? What exactly holds the supercharged Mercedes motors back from going this route?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why not go with a KB? What exactly holds the supercharged Mercedes motors back from going this route?
    Depends on the motor - but my guess is "cost." If anyone were to R&D a kit, they'd probably want to focus on the the V8 Kompressor motor, as it found it's way into many models (E55, CLS55, S55, SL55, CL55) and would have a larger target market.

    Second reason would be "cost/benefit" - the supercharged MB's already have twin-screw Lysholm blowers; one might gain some adiabatic efficiency by switching to a KB autorotor design instead, but it likely wouldn't amount to much increased output, as the stock blower seems to be adequately-sized for solid gains when overdriven and already is an efficient unit.

    My stance in the referenced thread was "a KB swap will give you headroom, when the smaller stock blower is out of steam (i.e. out of it's efficiency range) from a CFM standpoint - but you won't make huge power gains at dramatically lower boost targets if you leave the rest of the engine stock... it just doesn't work that way."

    While it makes for a cool/interesting project... it probably isn't worthwhile unless you're going to build the entire motor and system for a large SC and a high boost target.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Depends on the motor - but my guess is "cost." If anyone were to R&D a kit, they'd probably want to focus on the the V8 Kompressor motor, as it found it's way into many models (E55, CLS55, S55, SL55, CL55) and would have a larger target market.
    I agree on this, the V8 would be the market to target.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Second reason would be "cost/benefit" - the supercharged MB's already have twin-screw Lysholm blowers; one might gain some adiabatic efficiency by switching to a KB autorotor design instead, but it likely wouldn't amount to much increased output.
    This, I don't know about. A 2.8 liter or even larger KB blower would easily outperform the Lysholm likely at greater efficiency.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    My stance in the referenced thread was "a KB swap will give you headroom, when the smaller stock blower is out of steam (i.e. out of it's efficiency range) from a CFM standpoint - but you won't make huge power gains at dramatically lower boost targets if you leave the rest of the engine stock... it just doesn't work that way." While it makes for a cool/interesting project... it probably isn't worthwhile unless you're going to build the entire motor and system for a large SC and a high boost target.
    Yes, that would be the way to go about it. Build the motor with stronger internals and strap on a big KB blower. I don't know why the V8 guys haven't done it, it really perplexes me.
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    The relatively small market means each kit would be $$$$$.

    The cars are old and, while cheap to buy, can be nightmarish from a maintenance/repair perspective w/o a safety net (i.e. warranty/aftermarket service contract).

    Getting the software to play nice with the hardware would likely be the most difficult step - unknown for just how difficult.

    The stock blower is capable of 10's in the 1/4, non-nitrous, with the appropriate bolt-ons. That's already pretty damn quick.

    There may be other reasons... but those are my (educated?) guesses.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    The relatively small market means each kit would be $$$$$.

    The cars are old and, while cheap to buy, can be nightmarish from a maintenance/repair perspective w/o a safety net (i.e. warranty/aftermarket service contract).

    Getting the software to play nice with the hardware would likely be the most difficult step - unknown for just how difficult.

    The stock blower is capable of 10's in the 1/4, non-nitrous, with the appropriate bolt-ons. That's already pretty damn quick.

    There may be other reasons... but those are my (educated?) guesses.
    Well, it isn't like doing turbos or reinventing the wheel. It is a similar blower being put on.

    The software probably is the most difficult step but with the cars being older that means the software is easier to work on and also there would be more guys willing to try since the price has come down.

    The stock blower can do 10's, but a KB setup could do 9's or even 8's just like the GT500's.

    I think with the car getting cheaper that opens it up to more enthusiasts and this type of setup would really sell now sort of like how the HPF kit for the M3 got its sales after the E46 M3 was out of production.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well, it isn't like doing turbos or reinventing the wheel. It is a similar blower being put on.

    The software probably is the most difficult step but with the cars being older that means the software is easier to work on and also there would be more guys willing to try since the price has come down.

    The stock blower can do 10's, but a KB setup could do 9's or even 8's just like the GT500's.

    I think with the car getting cheaper that opens it up to more enthusiasts and this type of setup would really sell now sort of like how the HPF kit for the M3 got its sales after the E46 M3 was out of production.
    Just my $0.02, but I wouldn't be so cavalier about throwing around "9's or even 8's" - those would be Herculean feats for luxo-boats like an E, CLS, S, SL, or CL... IIRC, the lightest of the group has a curb weight around 4,000 lbs. Also, realistically... is someone going to tub out the rear-end of an AMG sedan? Or swap out the 5 speed tranny for a PG or TH400? Could it even be done? (I know, with enough money, almost anything is possible).

    Who knows, you might be right, more and more extreme modifications might become popular for the M113 Kompressor vehicles - which might someday include an aftermarket blower option. But a lot of questions would need to be answered/addresssed. Would the aftermarket blower be adapted with custom hardware to have a on/off clutch pack similar to the OEM unit, or would it be on all the time (with the necessary ECU changes)? Would the stock ECU be sufficient, or would it require some sort of piggyback or standalone engine management for full utilization? What approximate monetary investment would the entire kit and retrofit require?

    Don't forget - historically, BMW sells as many M3's as every model of AMG offered combined. I just don't know that the M113 Kompressor market would be large enough to support that extreme of a kit, other than the occasional one-off custom project... unlikely that a company could build their entire business model around it (a la HPF). But, who knows? It would be interesting to see.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Just my $0.02, but I wouldn't be so cavalier about throwing around "9's or even 8's" - those would be Herculean feats for luxo-boats like an E, CLS, S, SL, or CL... IIRC, the lightest of the group has a curb weight around 4,000 lbs. Also, realistically... is someone going to tub out the rear-end of an AMG sedan? Or swap out the 5 speed tranny for a PG or TH400? Could it even be done? (I know, with enough money, almost anything is possible).
    Well, the GT500 is the same weight. With a motor about the same size. I do not see why it would not be possible for the E55 with a big KB to even get close to some of those times. The lysholm is putting out way too much heat to get beyond the high 10's. It clearly is maxed out.

    I do not believe tubbing it would be necessary for 9's, not at all.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Who knows, you might be right, more and more extreme modifications might become popular for the M113 Kompressor vehicles - which might someday include an aftermarket blower option. But a lot of questions would need to be answered/addresssed. Would the aftermarket blower be adapted with custom hardware to have a on/off clutch pack similar to the OEM unit, or would it be on all the time (with the necessary ECU changes)? Would the stock ECU be sufficient, or would it require some sort of piggyback or standalone engine management for full utilization? What approximate monetary investment would the entire kit and retrofit require?
    I agree with you, I'm just surprised this has not been pushed further. In my mind, it is a logical upgrade and where the modification path should head.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Don't forget - historically, BMW sells as many M3's as every model of AMG offered combined. I just don't know that the M113 Kompressor market would be large enough to support that extreme of a kit, other than the occasional one-off custom project... unlikely that a company could build their entire business model around it (a la HPF). But, who knows? It would be interesting to see.
    True, and also the M3 audience is younger (power hungry) and more willing to mod. I just believe there is a lot of potential in these Benz's we haven't seen.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Would a turbo just like in the SRT be a better option? I don't know how much boost the stock ECU can handle but I know the ME9 can handle 7psi..i believe no more. I heard someone was using AEM FIC on a custom turbo he did on an E class. I know one Benz member who owns a W204 350 with a GT30 turbo @ 7 psi pushing 350whp and 370wtq (don't know if it's on a heart break dyno or not). He stated the ecu could only handle 7psi.

    Here are some vids of the turbo c350

    Last edited by Karo; 12-17-2010 at 05:39 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Karo Click here to enlarge
    Here are some vids of the turbo c350
    Would you mind reposting this as a new topic in the M272 section? Would like to discuss it. I can copy it over for you if you like.
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    Great thread.... I too would think that it is possible. Not sure if electronics would be a problem though?
    2007 E63 P30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Great thread.... I too would think that it is possible. Not sure if electronics would be a problem though?
    By now the ECU should be figured out. I would think hardware would be the primary obstacle but perhaps the tuning as well.
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