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  1. #151
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    I'm assuming this is in relation to Manziel? He's a smart kid, which is actually what pisses a lot of scouts off. He's not dumb, he's just a jackass.
    Yes.

    Being a jackass sometimes mean you have a chip on your shoulder. It isn't a bad thing is harnessed the right way. Could potentially be a good thing.

  2. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How do they even read a playbook or grasp concepts?
    Some don't, and they flame out. I have serious doubts about C. Patterson's ability over the long term to digest an NFL playerbook. As I understand it, the Vikings paired it down into very basic assignments for him, and it's obvious that he blows it about half a dozen snaps a game.

    But for the most part, frankly, you don't have to be a rhodes scholar. 90% of NFL players don't know much at all about football beyond their specific assignment, it's quite a coup when a player can digest and understand what everyone around him needs to be doing. Those players usually end up being team captains, they aren't easy to find. This is why I find the NFL network so amusing sometimes. Warren Sapp does not know squat about Tight End play. Nada. So why should I care for his opinion? Because he played 3 technique DT? Absurd.

    In terms of the playbook, again a lot of players have portions of it paired down for them. Smart coaches understand what they have and build around it. Hopefully if your scouts are doing their jobs, they are brining in players who are either intelligent enough to get the mental side down pat, or talented enough that it won't matter.
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  3. #153
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes.

    Being a jackass sometimes mean you have a chip on your shoulder. It isn't a bad thing is harnessed the right way. Could potentially be a good thing.
    Moxie is something coaches care about, and probably for good reason. Scouts want to see upside and traits, coaches want to see a high floor and intangibles. It's interesting because the incentive structures don't always align, by nature coaching staffs trend towards being conservative. Scouting departments are usually quite aggressive in their valuations of players.
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  4. #154
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Some don't, and they flame out. I have serious doubts about C. Patterson's ability over the long term to digest an NFL playerbook. As I understand it, the Vikings paired it down into very basic assignments for him, and it's obvious that he blows it about half a dozen snaps a game.

    But for the most part, frankly, you don't have to be a rhodes scholar. 90% of NFL players don't know much at all about football beyond their specific assignment, it's quite a coup when a player can digest and understand what everyone around him needs to be doing. Those players usually end up being team captains, they aren't easy to find. This is why I find the NFL network so amusing sometimes. Warren Sapp does not know squat about Tight End play. Nada. So why should I care for his opinion? Because he played 3 technique DT? Absurd.

    In terms of the playbook, again a lot of players have portions of it paired down for them. Smart coaches understand what they have and build around it. Hopefully if your scouts are doing their jobs, they are brining in players who are either intelligent enough to get the mental side down pat, or talented enough that it won't matter.
    I think the only reason Warren Sapp has a gig in analysis is because, well, he's Warren Sapp. I don't like listening him.

    I really don't like most NFL analysts but I like Bill Polian. I also like John Gruden.

    There was this one time where he said expect a double reverse and then a double reserve was run and I was like WTF.

  5. #155
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    About time Tom Savage started to get some love (MMQB on SI). He's been flying wayyyy under the radar. For the record, i'm done with scouting qbs this year, it gives me a headache. This class sucks at that position, by the way. I'd pass in the first round all together.

    1. Mettenberger
    2. Bortles
    3. Bridgewater
    4. Savage
    5. Derek Carr

    Do yourself a favor and read this article on Manziel. I think Greg nails it, which is no surprise. He knows more about football than entire coaching staffs.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-joh...03391-nfl.html
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  6. #156
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    Getting close to the decision making stage of the process, outside of pro days and in-house visits, most of the tape study is done. From a high level standpoint, weíll now start to put together a big board, and get a rough feel for specific players we feel strongly about (good or bad). Here's one I am personally on the fence about. I should add more interior players, but the reports for a guard or 3 tech tackle arenít particularly sexy reads.

    Bradley Roby 5.010 194

    Positives:
    -Prototype reactive athlete. Very good-excellent traits all around in that regard. Tested as a top level player in the relevant drills (3 cone, standing broad, 10 split, vert leap). Athleticism carries over to the field, not a shorts and tee shirt guy.
    -Sudden and explosive out of his back pedal. When playing off or in a zone look, can break down and drive on the underneath crossing or comeback routes.
    -Loose hips and ankles. Again, movement skills are his finest attribute and are near rare. Potentially the best in this class. Longer arms help him play taller than listed height.
    - Very good long speed. I see a true 4.4 type player who wonít be easily run by at the pro level.
    -Well proportioned build. Thick upper body with good muscle mass to re-route players.
    -Plays feisty, in your face brand of football. Unafraid and wants to compete. Can shed and attack in the run game. Flashes ability to be a factor on special teams with his speed.
    -Relatively pro style concepts at Ohio State. Iíve seen him play several zone looks, off man, bail, and a few snaps of press man free. Thatís much more than usual at the collegiate level, where zone and off looks dominate.

    Negatives:
    -Tape doesnít always reflect his ability (youíll notice I say this about many corners). Further complicating is that he shows all the reqd. traits on film, they simply donít translate to outstanding play. Was benched in 2013 at one point but rebounded nicely.
    -Shows natural ball skills yet at times seems awkward and lets his feet get choppy when the ball is in the air. Likely a technique issue that can be resolved with coaching. I counted 12 PBUs in 2013 so he can play the ball.
    -Have heard whispers of character concerns re: his social circle. Not so much him, more who he spends time with.
    -Poor form tackler. Willing, but not technically sound. A striker rather than a tackler, and lacks the frame to be effective as the former.
    -Overall technique needs a lot of work. Takes too many false steps when receivers set up their route stems with nuance and subtlety. Can get away with it at collegiate level due to his superior movement skills. Must be refined on Sundays. Hand placement in the few snaps of press I saw was arbitrary; clearly not something he is experienced doing.
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  7. #157
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    so who wins the AFC championship game this year? Brady or Manning?
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  8. #158
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    so who wins the AFC championship game this year? Brady or Manning?
    I’ll take the bait and step into fan mode.

    Pats over Packers in the superbowl.
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  9. #159
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    I’ll take the bait and step into fan mode.

    Pats over Packers in the superbowl.
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  10. #160
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    Finally going to really follow an NFL team, not in my blood........... but

    NY GIANTS it is for life

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  11. #161
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Group.america Click here to enlarge
    Finally going to really follow an NFL team, not in my blood........... but

    NY GIANTS it is for life

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    I can understand why folks don’t like the break between each snap, doesn’t have the same flow as soccer and other sports. If that is what is frustrating, just follow Oregon at the collegiate level, and the Eagles at the pro level. They play at an absurd pace. NE in 2012 set a record for pace, I think the hurry up is one of the most under-utilized tactical assets in the game.

    The Giants really let their roster get old and slow on them. But they still have some nice pieces, and did very strong work in FA in my mind. They’re headed in the right direction provided Eli stops sucking.
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  12. #162
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    About time Tom Savage started to get some love (MMQB on SI). He's been flying wayyyy under the radar. For the record, i'm done with scouting qbs this year, it gives me a headache. This class sucks at that position, by the way. I'd pass in the first round all together.

    1. Mettenberger
    2. Bortles
    3. Bridgewater
    4. Savage
    5. Derek Carr

    Do yourself a favor and read this article on Manziel. I think Greg nails it, which is no surprise. He knows more about football than entire coaching staffs.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-joh...03391-nfl.html
    He's not high on Manziel at all...

  13. #163
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He's not high on Manziel at all...
    Indeed, and I think he nails it. His game is just so unorthodox, when you combine it with the serious H/W deficiency, and the potential distractions his “brand” brings to the table….I wouldn’t advise drafting on day 1. If I were running the show, I doubt Manziel would be on my board at all. Almost all of his attributes revolve around broken plays and improvisation. Worthy skills to be sure, and in fairness he does have rare field vision when on the move. But those traits aren’t what win in the NFL. It’s about what you can do from the pocket, fundamentally.

    He does throw a natural deep ball, so credit to him for that. It’s a tough projection, pro-style guys will hate him, some of the more…I’ll be polite and say “creative” evaluators will fall in love with him.
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  14. #164
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    I think the hurry up is one of the most under-utilized tactical assets in the game.

    Theyíre headed in the right direction provided Eli stops sucking.
    Seriously. I would really like to see more of it. Nothing like watching a defense scramble and have no idea where to be on the field. Especially efficient when the D is tired.

    I wonder why it isn't used more unless they just don't want teams to practice against it and prepare more for it. That way when they use it to score a quick 6 it works...
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  15. #165
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Seriously. I would really like to see more of it. Nothing like watching a defense scramble and have no idea where to be on the field. Especially efficient when the D is tired.

    I wonder why it isn't used more unless they just don't want teams to practice against it and prepare more for it. That way when they use it to score a quick 6 it works...
    Nah, the real issues are possession, fatigue, and field position. If you trot your offense out there in full hurry up mode, and proceed to go 3 and out, you throw you defense back on the field after having about 90 seconds to rest. That puts them in a brutal spot, especially if they were just on the field for some 14 play drive or something brutal like that. You can fatigue your own players as well, NE was very flat in the second half of that DEN game in ’12 when they first unveiled the “turbo” hurry up. You get tired as hell ripping off 80-90 snaps. And finally, for obvious reasons it leads to you getting dominated in time of possession.

    Now does that matter? It’s an argument as old as the universe. I agree though, it’s not used enough.

    More marginal is that it requires a quarterback in near complete control of his offense. He has to be able to make his standard reads, adjustments, calls, and protections in a fraction of his normally allotted time. It is no coincidence that Peyton and Tom are exceptionally good at varying the pace of their offenses.
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  16. #166
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    This class sucks at that position, by the way. I'd pass in the first round all together.

    1. Mettenberger
    2. Bortles
    3. Bridgewater
    4. Savage
    5. Derek Carr
    Yeah this class does suck. Especially if Mettenberger is the best bet. Last years QB draft class wasn't good either. Nothing like 2012.

    Is it me or does Bortles look like he is 45 years old.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Indeed, and I think he nails it. His game is just so unorthodox, when you combine it with the serious H/W deficiency, and the potential distractions his “brand” brings to the table….I wouldn’t advise drafting on day 1. If I were running the show, I doubt Manziel would be on my board at all. Almost all of his attributes revolve around broken plays and improvisation. Worthy skills to be sure, and in fairness he does have rare field vision when on the move. But those traits aren’t what win in the NFL. It’s about what you can do from the pocket, fundamentally.

    He does throw a natural deep ball, so credit to him for that. It’s a tough projection, pro-style guys will hate him, some of the more…I’ll be polite and say “creative” evaluators will fall in love with him.
    I don't have high hopes for Manziel. But I hope he goes to a team that plays him and doesn't sit him on the sideline.

    One thing is for sure he is exciting to watch. But I doubt his crazy play will translate to the NFL.

  18. #168
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Yeah this class does suck. Especially if Mettenberger is the best bet. Last years QB draft class wasn't good either. Nothing like 2012.

    Is it me or does Bortles look like he is 45 years old.
    It’s not a strong class, no. I’d just caution that ’12 was rare, Luck is the cleanest prospect I have ever scouted. Period. I can pull my scouting report for him, but IIRC the only real knock was good but not outstanding arm talent. Everything else was so obviously refined and nuanced, pro ready. So that was a unique situation.

    I liked Bortles less the more I watched. My fundamental issue is his decision making. Much like accuracy, it is extremely rare that a quarterback suddenly learns to make sound decisions when going up to the highest level of competition. You are either smart with the ball, or you aren’t. Some of his decisions are truly awful, just disastrous mistakes that will get coaches and scouts fired. I could put together an hour long cutup of him making the objectively wrong read or decision, just flat out incorrect. And it worsens under pressure, which is exactly not what you want to see.

    I’m higher on Zach than most...Love the arm talent, love the frame, love the pro-style coaching he got down there. He’s clumsy and heavy footed, but at his best I see Drew Bledsoe. No idea if he’ll ever take the next step though, but there’s far less of a projection with him. I see NFL traits out of an NFL type playbook.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    I don't have high hopes for Manziel. But I hope he goes to a team that plays him and doesn't sit him on the sideline.

    One thing is for sure he is exciting to watch. But I doubt his crazy play will translate to the NFL.
    Yep. In a nutshell.
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    Who would you draft in a Keeper league if you had first round pick? I need a WR or RB Click here to enlarge
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    I don't think you want my fantasy football advice, outside of winning the ship last year, I hadn't made the playoffs since junior year of highschool....which was quite some time ago. Ridiculous. But AJ Green will have a huge season.
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  21. #171
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    I’ve been working through cutups of Jason Verrett since about 8 this morning, still cannot put my finger on how I feel about him. Can he play outside? That’s the real question. In terms of pure tape, his is better than any corner in this class. It’s simply outstanding. He has every tool I want to see in a corner, but as a bottom line matter he is height deficient. Were he blessed with an extra 3-4 inches or so, he’d be a top 10 pick absolutely no questions asked. Frustrating evaluation…
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    It isn't an exact science. I don't know how anyone can expect you to make really accurate predictions based on what is available to you. You just never 100% know how it will translate to the NFL.

    That's why draft grades always bug me. How can people grade a draft when the guys haven't even played pro ball yet? That Mel Kiper bull$#@! drives me nuts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It isn't an exact science. I don't know how anyone can expect you to make really accurate predictions based on what is available to you. You just never 100% know how it will translate to the NFL.

    That's why draft grades always bug me. How can people grade a draft when the guys haven't even played pro ball yet? That Mel Kiper bull$#@! drives me nuts.
    Oh don’t get me started on Kiper. I don’t know the guy personally, but he’s a joke. The butt of so many jokes in scouting departments around the country. He’s a talking head and that’s about it, I could care less what he thinks. The concept of a draft “Grade” is insulting. These kids haven’t played a snap of NFL football, and we’re going to grade them? How can a player be a “reach” if we don’t have access to results? What a joke.

    You are absolutely correct it’s a projection, that’s the nature of scouting. It’s why scouts tend to be quite aggressive, and coaches tend to talk us down off the ledge. I want to see upside, coaches want to see production and a high floor. It’s all give and take with limited information, and it’s getting harder and harder with how laughable simple NCAA football is becoming. You have entire conferences where an offensive play is as simple as “4”. No joke. That number tells each individual one thing, but they have ZERO understanding of what others are doing. So you have kids coming out of school now a days who genuinely have never had to learn what the player opposite to them is doing. It’s awful, but collegiate football is a gimmick to begin with.

    Rant over….I share your frustration x10000
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  24. #174
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    Taylor Lewan 6.07 314

    In my mind, this is the best tackle in the class. Most of the coaches Iíve spoken to are in love with Matthews (safe, high floor), and most of the scouts are about Robertson (upside). I say Lewan is the best mix of the two. This kid has every tool needed to be a top tier left tackle, or a truly dominant right tackle. He handles power as well as any tackle Iíve seen come out in the last several years, which is rare. No question in my mind he is a cut above Joeckel and Fisher from last year. I see Nate Solder with more power and experience.


    Positives:
    -Ideal H/W/S prospect. Prototype height, wingspan, hand size, and frame to play on Sundays.
    -Has frame to add another 10 lbs easily. Simply a massive human being with room to grow.
    -Very good athlete on tape, near elite measurable in shorts.
    -Easily carries his weight above the hips. Natural bend to his stance, can get out of his stance quickly and deliver a violent strike in the run game. Heavy hands.
    -Road grating, maulers mentality. Plays to the shadow of the whistle. Will be an immediate plus run blocker.
    -Has the functional athleticism to play in space and as part of a convoy. Can pick off secondary level defenders and shows good spacial awareness.
    -Has the loose ankles and light feet to mirror speed off the edge. Handles speed about as well as anyone in this draft.
    -Simply outstanding against power. Flashes ability to anchor and not be budged. When jolted backwards, quickly re sets and establishes pocket.
    -Experience for a premier program. Showed very well in both a spread and a pro style system.

    Negatives:
    -Not a technician, still somewhat raw despite quality starting experience.
    -Overly aggressive. Can get caught lunging, frequently beat with counter moves and rips from more nuanced defenders.
    -A bit of an oddball. Not a bad kid at all, but marches to the beat of his own drum. Humble and from a good family as I understand it. Just something to monitor.
    -Can be caught off guard by explosive edge rushers. Handles speed well overall, but will likely struggle early on against the quick twitch players.
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  25. #175
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    My board is just about set. Evaluations as of about 6AM this morning are DONE for all Big12/SEC/MAC/WAC/Big Sky, which is a great relief. At this point, it’s all about nailing down character evals and pulling off prospects who simply do not fit our vision for team building. But the actual tape evaluation is 100% done, I know who I like and who I don’t.

    Last chance to ask for thoughts on any prospects, in another day or two i’ll have to drop off this thread until after the draft for obvious reasons.
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