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  1. #26
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    4 out of 4 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    And to your earlier point about DCT, one of my cars has a BMW DCT and I still think automatics are superior for certain types of vehicles. AMG's customers don't necessarily want the absolute maximum performance, they just want a lot of performance without losing the comfort and luxury that Mercedes is known for. A DCT is simply not as smooth as a modern automatic. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is go down to the local dealers and test a DCT M3 and a C63. The M3 is able to keep up (barely) with a C63 because of its geaing more than its transmission type, the DCT shifts more quickly and has less parasitic drivetrain loss than the C63's automatic but the bigger issue is the BMW S65 motor's much higher redline which lets them get away with tighter gearing.

    Here's a run down of effective gear ratios (gear ratio multiplied by final drive ratio) to give an idea of torque multiplication in each gear.

    C63 M3
    1st: 11.67 15.08
    2nd: 7.57 9.25
    3rd: 5.08 6.78
    4th: 3.63 5.29
    5th: 2.65 4.38
    6th: 2.17 3.79
    7th: 1.93 3.15

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Then, explain how the ALL WHEEL DRIVE 991 911 C4s won the "best drivers car" over all the RWD competition.
    Anyone who doesn't recognize AWD is the superior drivetrain for a DAILY DRIVER SEDAN has never owned a 500+++ rwhp car or driven through a cold and wet winter.
    The fact that needs to be spelled out for some people means there is no lack of stupidity.
    Motor Trend's competition is all about finding the car that's the easiest to drive fast, but I've heard from a lot of people that in the specific case of the 991 Carrera, the 4 models somehow have better steering feel than the rear wheel drive ones. I've never driven the new Carrera 4 or 4s so I can't say if that's true but it's certainly possible. One of the big reasons manufacturers are so happy to adopt electronic power steering is its ease of programming. It's much easier to control the way the car's steering feels compared to older technologies. My guess is Porsche knew the 4 models would have a disadvantage and worked so hard on the steering system on these cars that they ended up with programming that was superior to what they used the year before on the RWD 991s (in other words, they had more time to dial in the power steering system's calibration).

    You're right that I don't live where it snows or even rains much, maybe my opinion would be different if I didn't live in SoCal but as it is I prefer cars that can be steered with the throttle and brakes as much as with the steering wheel, AWD systems take away a lot of that control and that's not something I'm willing to trade for extra grip or performance.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Then, explain how the ALL WHEEL DRIVE 991 911 C4s won the "best drivers car" over all the RWD competition.
    Because they didn't use the Carrera S as they did when it won best drivers car the year before: http://www.porscheboost.com/content....13-competition

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Anyone who doesn't recognize AWD is the superior drivetrain for a DAILY DRIVER SEDAN has never owned a 500+++ rwhp car or driven through a cold and wet winter.
    Those idiots at McLaren what were they thinking!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    The fact that needs to be spelled out for some people means there is no lack of stupidity.
    You really need to relax the attitude.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
    And to your earlier point about DCT, one of my cars has a BMW DCT and I still think automatics are superior for certain types of vehicles. AMG's customers don't necessarily want the absolute maximum performance, they just want a lot of performance without losing the comfort and luxury that Mercedes is known for. A DCT is simply not as smooth as a modern automatic. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is go down to the local dealers and test a DCT M3 and a C63. The M3 is able to keep up (barely) with a C63 because of its geaing more than its transmission type, the DCT shifts more quickly and has less parasitic drivetrain loss than the C63's automatic but the bigger issue is the BMW S65 motor's much higher redline which lets them get away with tighter gearing.

    Here's a run down of effective gear ratios (gear ratio multiplied by final drive ratio) to give an idea of torque multiplication in each gear.

    C63 M3
    1st: 11.67 15.08
    2nd: 7.57 9.25
    3rd: 5.08 6.78
    4th: 3.63 5.29
    5th: 2.65 4.38
    6th: 2.17 3.79
    7th: 1.93 3.15
    This is all correct but it ultimately boils down to is the BMW makes more efficient use of its power.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
    Motor Trend's competition is all about finding the car that's the easiest to drive fast, but I've heard from a lot of people that in the specific case of the 991 Carrera, the 4 models somehow have better steering feel than the rear wheel drive ones. I've never driven the new Carrera 4 or 4s so I can't say if that's true but it's certainly possible. One of the big reasons manufacturers are so happy to adopt electronic power steering is its ease of programming. It's much easier to control the way the car's steering feels compared to older technologies. My guess is Porsche knew the 4 models would have a disadvantage and worked so hard on the steering system on these cars that they ended up with programming that was superior to what they used the year before on the RWD 991s (in other words, they had more time to dial in the power steering system's calibration).

    You're right that I don't live where it snows or even rains much, maybe my opinion would be different if I didn't live in SoCal but as it is I prefer cars that can be steered with the throttle and brakes as much as with the steering wheel, AWD systems take away a lot of that control and that's not something I'm willing to trade for extra grip or performance.
    You were way too nice in your response considering his insulting tone.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Because they didn't use the Carrera S as they did when it won best drivers car the year before: http://www.porscheboost.com/content....13-competition

    I spell it out for you, and you STILL get it wrong.
    I said "OVER ALL THE RWD COMPETITION" in that best drivers car shootout.
    That included the SLS and the C7. Arguably the 2 best RWD cars you can buy.



    Those idiots at McLaren what were they thinking!
    What part of DAILY DRIVEN SEDAN didn't you understand?
    I even capitalized it for you.
    Or, did McLaren release a LUXURY SPORT SEDAN to compete with the C63?



    You really need to relax the attitude.
    Maybe you're right.
    But, I am SO tired of the lack of education and stupidity when it comes to both AWD and DCT.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Maybe you're right.
    But, I am SO tired of the lack of education and stupidity when it comes to both AWD and DCT.
    It doesn't matter if it's a sedan or not rear wheel drive is lighter, more efficient, and more exciting. The Carrera S won and so did the 4S. You conveniently omitted that...

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It doesn't matter if it's a sedan or not rear wheel drive is lighter, more efficient, and more exciting. The Carrera S won and so did the 4S. You conveniently omitted that...
    WTF are you talking about "omitted"?
    The point I made was SIMPLE and IRREFUTABLE.


    Sedan= HEAVY car that is daily driven in multiple weather and road conditions.
    So, yes, everyone with a brain knows there is a difference between that role and the role of track car or weekend toy.
    So YES, it DOES matter.
    If you don't see the benefits of AWD, your little car isn't making enough power yet, and you've never driven through a Vermont winter.
    If you don't see how a daily driven sedan should have different criteria, you're either being stupid or stubborn.


    Full disclosure: Rear engine is pathetic, and the MSRP of the 911 Turbo is a joke, but the Turbo PDK is the only Porshce I would own.
    Last edited by TT C6; 02-05-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    WTF are you talking about "omitted"?
    The point I made was SIMPLE and IRREFUTABLE.


    Sedan= HEAVY car that is daily driven in multiple weather and road conditions.
    So, yes, everyone with a brain knows there is a difference between that role and the role track or weekend toy.
    So YES, it DOES matter.
    If you don't see the benefits of AWD, your little car isn't making enough power yet, and you've never driven through a Vermont winter.
    If you don't see how a daily driven sedan should have different criteria, you're either being stupid or stubborn.


    Full disclosure: Rear engine is pathetic, and the MSRP of the 911 Turbo is a joke, but the Turbo PDK is the only Porshce I would own.
    You implied the C4S won best driver's car because it is all wheel drive yet the rear wheel drive Carrera S won the year before. Well, that sort of undermines your point when you leave it out.

    It doesn't matter if it's a sedan or not. The M3 is a sedan and it's rear wheel drive. It isn't heavy and it is fun to drive. I don't associate sedan with having to be heavy, sorry.

    My car is making more power than any all wheel drive sedan you mentioned, thanks.

    There is a benefit to having choices on the market. Saying it has to be one or the other is a bit ridiculous. There are pluses and minuses to both. It's nice Porsche gives people the choice.

    Rear engine also has its benefits. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you blatantly dismiss entire segments.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You implied the C4S won best driver's car because it is all wheel drive yet the rear wheel drive Carrera S won the year before. Well, that sort of undermines your point when you leave it out.
    You know how ridiculous it is for YOU, tell ME, what I was implying with MY post ???
    You're wrong
    I was refuting the ridiculous post that I CLEARLY QUOTED that claimed AWD cars are boring and don't have precise steering feel.

    It doesn't matter if it's a sedan or not. The M3 is a sedan and it's rear wheel drive. It isn't heavy and it is fun to drive. I don't associate sedan with having t obe heavy, sorry.
    No. The M3 is still a pig compared to my C6 ZO6 and it has NO torque, so it's not fun. It's feminine, and why you had to add a blower to yours to make it respectable.


    My car is making more power than any all wheel drive sedan you mentioned, thanks. You're car is still a joke compared to a 911 Turbo and GTR, and weak compared to the E63 4matic.
    You're welcome.



    There is a benefit to having choices on the market. Saying it has to be one or the other is a bit ridiculous. There are pluses and minuses to both. It's nice Porsche gives people the choice.
    Agreed. I think choice is a GREAT thing.


    Rear engine also has its benefits. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you blatantly dismiss entire segments.
    One of my best friends is a Porsche tech and I have many friends who own Porsche.
    I grew up in a German household.
    Regardless, the pathetic and inferior rear engine lives on due to the arrogance and history worship of "Porsche Purists".
    If rear engine was so good, why is the entry level Porsche boxeter, AND their SUPERCARS, all mid-engine?
    I rest my case.

  11. #36
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Im sure the PP version will be over 500 hp.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Wrong.
    AMG engineers ARE stupid if the C63 doesn't get a DCT.
    DCT is everything because it's the best transmission available.
    Educate yourself instead of blindly leg humping Mercedes.
    Have you heard about the new C7 Z06's automatic that shifts faster than Porsche's PDK?

    -Rich

  13. #38
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    Lol who the $#@! is this guy?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Nah.
    F@ck YOU.

    If AWD sucks, explain the 2014 E63, 911 Turbo S, GTR, Lamborghini Gallardo/Huracan, Audi R8, etc.
    I am SO tired of uneducated idiots spouting off nonsense about AWD.
    Get a clue.
    F*cking relax.

    Quit f*cking whining like a little girl with her panties in a bunch and go buy your S6 already.
    Last edited by BlackJetE90OC; 02-06-2014 at 12:01 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
    ...uhh what exactly do you want us to explain about those cars? They're faster from 0-60 because of all wheel drive but are much more boring to drive because of it. All wheel drive adds weight, it adds parasitic drivetrain loss (so less power is available to push the car forwards) it ruins steering feel and often precision (high power AWD cars sometimes exhibit torque steer), etc. I've driven every car you mentioned except the 991 911 Turbo S (driven plenty of 996 and 997s) so I'm speaking form personal experience when I say the rear wheel drive versions of the 911 and E63 are way better, the Gallardo is fun but not that great, and the GTR is a bore.
    +1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    Have you heard about the new C7 Z06's automatic that shifts faster than Porsche's PDK?

    -Rich

    Rich-
    I am a GM fan boy and have been buying corvettes since 1996.
    With that said, even I know that is complete bull$#@!.

    Please tell me you're not really stupid enough to believe that and you're just messing with me.
    If you're serious, you better open a book and learn the difference between a DCT and a torque converter.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    F*cking relax.

    Quit f*cking whining like a little girl with her panties in a bunch and go buy your S6 already.
    Nah.
    I want something smaller and lighter with AWD and DCT and a V8TT.
    I'm still hoping the C63 meets my criteria.....regardless of the unofficial rumors.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Rich-
    I am a GM fan boy and have been buying corvettes since 1996.
    With that said, even I know that is complete bull$#@!.

    Please tell me you're not really stupid enough to believe that and you're just messing with me.
    If you're serious, you better open a book and learn the difference between a DCT and a torque converter.
    I guess we'll see.

    -Rich

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    So who let the cry baby in bimmerboost/benzboost?

    Oh! Now I get it. It finally makes sense now! If you prefer RWD over AWD, then you're stupid. I don't know why I didn't think of it that way before.

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    I'm laughing so hard now at "I rest my case"...lol Like he actually said something so profound, with real world facts and evidence. Click here to enlarge

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You implied the C4S won best driver's car because it is all wheel drive yet the rear wheel drive Carrera S won the year before. Well, that sort of undermines your point when you leave it out.
    And the rwd GT3 will win next year.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    And the rwd GT3 will win next year.
    Negative.
    The C7 ZO6 is going to smoke the GT3.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Go f@ck yourself.
    OK............after I get up off yo' momma. Frickin skank.
    Click here to enlarge

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    One of my best friends is a Porsche tech and I have many friends who own Porsche.
    I grew up in a German household.
    Regardless, the pathetic and inferior rear engine lives on due to the arrogance and history worship of "Porsche Purists".
    If rear engine was so good, why is the entry level Porsche boxeter, AND their SUPERCARS, all mid-engine?
    I rest my case.
    Your best friend could be a talking Porsche for all it matters. The 911 is rear engine due to the tradition of the 911. Nothing wrong with the 911 being what it is supposed to be.

    You're comparing an M3 to a Z06. That makes a ton of sense. Please, do go on.

    My car is a joke compared to a 911 turbo or GTR yet it makes double the HP? LOL ok. What do you drive again?

    Your red text is annoying by the way. Stop using it.

    The only joke is your points and posts. You come off like a raving lunatic.

  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    And the rwd GT3 will win next year.
    Exactly. This guy doesn't what he's talking about he just screams.

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