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    My 2012 SBD 700 E85 GTR Vs My ESS/AR 700 M3 on 91

    I wanted to take a few minutes are write up a small article on the whole M3 vs GTR debate, and my impressions of both of the cars, both stock vs highly modified. I feel now owning both, at the same time, and driving them both in stock form to both at 700hp, gives me a good amount of insight I can offer. I will touch base on many aspects of each car, and compare the M3 and GTR in both stock form, and at current power levels.

    First and foremost, performance. I will begin with the power and delivery from each platform. We all love our M3’s, and I still do! But I feel it is just not really up to par in this category, at least stock vs stock. Up here in Elevation, the M3 in stock form is a slug. No way to beat around the bush on this. My M3 made 315hp/230tq SAE bone stock, up here. It felt very underwhelming and very disappointing. The linear delivery is great, and the throttle response blows the doors of the GTR however. The biggest gripe most of us have, is the lack of torque. While it makes it in a very linear and consistent fashion (very straight across the board from 2500rpm to 8k) it just doesn’t make enough of it. The trade off for the short stroke 4.0L is the ability to rev to astronomical RPMS closing in at 8400rpm. No one can deny the sheer pleasure of driving the crankshaft to these velocities. It puts a smile on my face every single time! Now, my 2012 GTR when bone stock, on pump gas and 11psi up here put down 395hp/375tq SAE on a mustang dyno. The car, however, felt much faster than the numbers reflected. The first 2 gears were very healthy and planted you back. The biggest advantage the GTR has over the M3, is the available torque, the mass of midrange available and the very short gearing. This is what propels this 3850lb mechanical behemoth from 0-60 in less then 3 seconds. Bone stock, however, it feels like she starts running out of steam past 80mph or so. It still pulls good, but there is a lack of tenacity that the first 3 gears bring. The response, while great, is no where near as crisp as the M3 in M mode. With everything being considered, I give the win to the GTR on stock vs stock performance.

    Now, fast forward and compare both cars to how they sit now. The M3 running the following mods (ESS/AR 700 supercharger, AR Design catless xpipe and rear sections ESS tune, running from 91 to 105 octane) and the 2012 GTR (SBD 700 – GotBoost intakes, GotBoost Speed density conversion, Got Boost IC piping w/ Tials, SBD race dp’s, AAM Race midpipe, SBD 90mm street exhaust, Dual HKS fuel pumps and ID 1000 injectors. Tuned on E85) The M3 @ 9psi on 100 octane laid down 613hp/394tq on a dynojet, the GTR @ 20psi on E85 laid down 589hp/712tq. The power delivery couldn’t be any different between to cars. First, the M3. Under 6500rpm, the car feels like a slug. I use the term “feels” loosely, because the power delivery is so damn smooth and linear, you really don’t feel how fast the car actually is. The power creeps up on you and just continually pulls until you shift at 8600rpm. There is nothing eventful going on during this; no neck snapping, no sudden rush of power. This car is deceptively quick. I personally feel that past 50mph this car begins to shine. Down low, under 6500rpm it is gutless. This in part to the lack of stroke, and the nature of centrifugal superchargers. The power builds with rpm, and because if this, if you are not in the meat of the powerband (6500+) this car is uneventful. However, once you cross that threshold and are throwing the tach north of 7000rpm, this car becomes alive. It pulls very strongly up top, and due to the shorter gears, once your past 3rd gear, you never drop under 7000rpm when shifting at 8600rpm. This is where you want to be while racing this car. The lower end of the powerband and rolling into the throttle at 2-3k rpm leaves much to be desired, but the centrifugal blower paired with a short stroke, high compression 8600rpm capable V8 makes you tingle in your holiest of holies when you stand on the throttle past 6.5k!

    Now, on to the GTR. The delivery of this car is polar opposite of the blown 4.0 V8 from BMW. This car is just straight violent in the first 3 gears. Nothing, and I mean Nothing short of a hyper car or a very heavily modified street car with traction will stay next to a 700hp E85 GTR south of 80mph. I am still blown away by how much force this car puts out, and how well it puts it down. The stock turbos still take a split second to spool on E85, but once they do, you better make sure your ready to start banging that paddle, because the RPMS hit 7k in the first 3 gears before you can even react half the time. While the car “only” makes 589hp vs the M3’s 613, I firmly believe it’s the addition of over 300 extra lb of torque that manage to propel this machine in a manner that I can only describe as violent. The M3 would get absolutely destroyed in any dig or roll race that took place under 60mph. Before, when it was bone stock, the top end seemed to really lack a punch, but that was solved with the intakes and downpipes. It removed the 4 cats, and restricted 2” inlets that caused the car to fall flat up top. While the M3 makes more power up top, the GTR has so much more under the curve, and almost double the tq. This is evident the moment you line the 2 cars up. I don’t think anything can keep the M3 next to the GTR, at least not when its on E85.

    Tonight I had my buddy take my M3 out on 91 octane (roughly 570hp) and we ran 3 times from 60-130. I will post the video of this at the end. I think the M3 would need another 100hp to pull out on top from a higher roll (at least 60mph starting point) The GTR just has to much power and torque available under the curve, and the peaky delivery of the M3, while making more peak, just doesn’t have the fortitude through the rpm range to stay close to the GTR. I give the edge to the GTR on modified vs modified.

    Transmissions: Both of my cars are equipped with the DCT variant. Now, both cars retain stock internals on the DCT’s, while the GTR is loaded with LC5 w/ BOTL. This doesn’t affect shifting, but more so just launching. The M3 transmission is very crisp! VERY CRISP! It shifts like butter when you want it to, and when you change the settings, it shifts violently if desired. At WOT, the difference is negligible. While on paper I do believe the M3 shifts faster, you cannot tell in a real world application. The shift time on both are phenomenal. The M3 seems to lag a hair compared to the GTR, but once again, we are splitting hairs over this. In auto mode, the M3’s shifting pattern can also be changed, to shift at a lower or higher rpm via the selector, which is a great function and keep the car from shifting to early, and lugging the car along under light acceleration. Now, the GTR. This car’s DCT is less refined, more clunky, and just doesn’t feel as smooth as the M3. While it’s still lightning fast and performs flawlessly while racing or on the throttle, in daily driving, it is a cumbersome unit. It clunks downshifting, can be jarring at times, and the upshifts (1-2 especially) can jolt the car under light loads. You can tell Nissan engineered this car with performance a priority over comfort with the DCT. Auto mode plain sucks. It shifts the car way to early, and causes it to lug around horribly around town. I never drive this damn thing in auto because of that. Daily use for the DCT is inferior to the M3. I give the M3 the edge by a good margin on the DCT vs the GTR’s.

    Below is the video I was talking about with the run from tonight. My GTR was driven by me, on 20psi and E85 (589hp/712tq) The M3 was on pump (roughly down from 613hp/397tq to 570hp/360tq) This is the only video we manged to get, but we ran 3 times. 2 60-130 pulls and a 50-130 The 60 rolls both cars were in 3rd, the 50 roll M3 was in 2nd, GTR was in 3rd. This pull was a 60-130.


    The GTR took a second to spool, but once it did, it was game over. M3 stayed doors for about a second until boost hit. When i shut down, My M3 was about cars behind. the 50 roll, the M3 jumped a fender on the hit, but once i spooled up i passed him, and when we shut down I had about 3 cars on it.
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    M3. The 314hp/230tq is bone stock (blue run)
    Click here to enlarge


    Bone stock GTR run was the red delta. She laid down 389hp/395tq 11psi bone stock. The Green was mid pipe, and pump gas tune.


    Click here to enlarge


    Dyno of M3 w/ ESS/AR 700 supercharger and AR Design xpipe and exhaust 9psi 100octane 613hp/394tq SAE


    Click here to enlarge


    Dyno of GTR w/ SBD 700 package @ 20psi on E85 589hp/712tq SAE

    Click here to enlarge
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    That GTR has an insane amount of torque. They are just 2 totally different machines. Since im not a race car driver I would prefer the nasty v8 m3 8400rpm redline with a evolve blower and evolve exhaust. Good write up! Very informative. Thank you
    2012 335is FBO Protune. E92 M3 soon Click here to enlarge

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    One of the better comparison write ups I've read by a forum member!

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    Great write up, as a fan of both cars I appreciate the time you put into this. I always wondered about the DCT's in each vehicle and how they compared to each other as well. You're living right my friend...owning 2 modded copies of these great machines is something I can't even imagine.Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by timore Click here to enlarge
    That GTR has an insane amount of torque. They are just 2 totally different machines. Since im not a race car driver I would prefer the nasty v8 m3 8400rpm redline with a evolve blower and evolve exhaust. Good write up! Very informative. Thank you
    Very true. Stock vs stock, performance wise, there really isn't a comparison. It is just a completely different breed of machine, but both are very enjoyable to own and drive! The one thing that I will forever miss when I sell the M3, is the insane sound that engine threw out when you went WOT.... Straight xpipe w/ a Supercharger at 8600rpm.... Not many other cars can rival the symphony of apocalyptic mechanical death metal this car puts out.
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    Great write up, as a fan of both cars I appreciate the time you put into this. I always wondered about the DCT's in each vehicle and how they compared to each other as well. You're living right my friend...owning 2 modded copies of these great machines is something I can't even imagine.Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Thanks! Yea I was curious as well before i purchased my GTR. I wish the GTR's was as refined as the M3. Thats the only draw back going from the M to the GTR.
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    How about handling? The M has to feel lighter on it's feet with better agility while the GTR has that planted glued down feel

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    How about handling? The M has to feel lighter on it's feet with better agility while the GTR has that planted glued down feel
    I will touch base with that here shortly. Going to continue the write up, including suspension, brakes, interior/exterior, amenities, comfort and daily driving.
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    Good comparison! I think I'd prefer the gtr....it would be fun to smash everything on the road and it's more exclusive
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

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    Finally got a chance to log a 60-130 with both vehicles.


    At 6000k elevation.


    60-130 ESS/AR 700 M3 8.5 sec



    60-130 SBD E-700 GTR 7.75 sec
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
    -ESS/AR 700 - KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - Challenge-
    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
    - Jacks 3.8 w/ Jacks heads - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - ADV.1 - Ecutek via Visconti -
    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/
    http://store.vtune.us/
    http://www.revvolution.com/

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    This is an excellent write up on two good platforms... Congrats on the GTR

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    Not a very good race video, just 1 run? And the M3 clearly isn't starting at the right rpm or speed for it. In a top end race the M3 should win. If you start at too low of a speed of course the GTR torque advantage and all wheel drive will give it the win.

    The DCT M3 hits 71 mph in second so starting in third at 60 puts it at a disadvantage. I'd like to see the video where it started in second and the GTR was in third.

    Edited your post to better format paragraph spacing. I might front page but there are several grammar mistakes.

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    700 hp on the GTR versus 600 on the m will do that. probably more like a 150 horsepower difference considering mustang and dynojet differences

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GearHead03 Click here to enlarge
    700 hp on the GTR versus 600 on the m will do that. probably more like a 150 horsepower difference considering mustang and dynojet differences
    True but the M being lighter and rear wheel drive should need less power to do the equivalent up top. The GTR should win with a large HP difference obviously but...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Good comparison! I think I'd prefer the gtr....it would be fun to smash everything on the road and it's more exclusive
    Yeah, if performance is in mind, these cars really aren't comparable in any way...lol GTR will take the win every time. I remember that comparison Sticky had put up awhile back comparing the two on a track, GTR beat a "lightly" modified M3, with stock tires on GTR and clearly high-performance tires on the M3. They're just not the same car. I'd much rather drive cross-country in an M3 though, I think.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    True but the M being lighter and rear wheel drive should need less power to do the equivalent up top. The GTR should win with a large HP difference obviously but...

    I know the GTR is heavier and AWD, but isn't it also more aerodynamic? And with the difference in gearing in the trans I'd still think the GTR would win even in top end, I mean I've always been under the impression they are top-end monsters, you know since they've been able to eclipse 200mph in stock form? And trap what in the 1/4 bone stock compared to the M3? I will say though, just by seeing comparison races with ESS v Evolve or AA M3's, I'd like to see an Evolve, Gintani, or AA level 3 car lineup with this GTR...

    OP: Thanks for the comparison! Comparing the DCT's was the best info, already knew how the performance comparisons would pan out...lol, but did wonder how the DCT's would be different in racing versus daily.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I know the GTR is heavier and AWD, but isn't it also more aerodynamic?
    How so?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    And with the difference in gearing in the trans I'd still think the GTR would win even in top end
    It's geared short for quick sprints and launches not for the top end like the M3.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I mean I've always been under the impression they are top-end monsters
    That's because they make so much power.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    And trap what in the 1/4 bone stock compared to the M3
    An M3 can trap 130 with less than 600 whp. It's clearly making the most of its HP.

    With equal HP I expect the M3 to pull in a top end roll race every time.

    I'll have to do my own comparisons.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How so?



    It's geared short for quick sprints and launches not for the top end like the M3.



    That's because they make so much power.



    An M3 can trap 130 with less than 600 whp. It's clearly making the most of its HP.

    With equal HP I expect the M3 to pull in a top end roll race every time.

    I'll have to do my own comparisons.

    Bone stock GTR traps ~120, not sure what an additional 100whp would net, I'm just sayin though, the car's top speed is ~193mph bone stock, M3 is what? 185mph? I've never seen anything that would point in the direction of the M3 being a better top-end car. AWD versus RWD is about it, and that's minimal. Weight difference is only ~150lbs, not crazy, and again GTR is more aerodynamic, here's the numbers, since I was pretty curious myself. I'll be honest, I think a large ST N54 would have a better chance. Like Terry's or @Ak335i, or mine shortly

    Frontal drag area (obviously M3 would probably be slightly more since it's a bit wider)
    6.80 sq ft 0.632 m2 2007 BMW 335i Coupe
    6.08 sq ft 0.565 m2 2008 Nissan GTR
    And here's a drag coefficient comparison

    2007 Lamborghini Gallardo
    Cd 0.34
    Frontal area 1.95 meters^2
    CdA = 0.663

    2009-2011 GT-R
    Cd 0.27
    Frontal area 2.09 meters^2
    CdA = 0.564

    2011 Turbo and Turbo S Coupe
    Cd 0.31
    Frontal area 2.05 meters^2
    CdA = 0.635

    C6 Z06
    Cd 0.34
    Frontal area 2.07 meters^2
    CdA = 0.703

    Veyron
    Cd 0.36
    Frontal area 2.07 meters^2
    CdA = 0.745

    And the M3...
    E92 M3 drag coefficient: 0.31
    http://crm.bmw.ca/compare/compare_re...=XBB90BMC111A0

    E90 M3 drag coefficient: 0.30
    http://crm.bmw.ca/compare/compare_re...C112A0&model2=

    E93 M3 drag coefficient: 0.32
    http://crm.bmw.ca/compare/compare_re...C113A0&model2=
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    BMW M3 DCT
    Gear / Ratio / Max Speed / RPM drop on upshift
    1st 4.780 44
    2nd 2.933 71 5200
    3rd 2.153 97 6200
    4th 1.678 124 6500
    5th 1.390 150 6900
    6th 1.203 173 7300
    7th 1.000 208 7000
    Final Ratio 3.154
    Redline 8400

    TRANSMISSION
    Transmission type GR6 Dual Clutch Transmission
    Gear ratio 1st 4.056
    2nd 2.301
    3rd 1.595
    4th 1.248
    5th 1.001
    6th 0.796
    Reverse 3.383
    Final drive ratio 3.700
    Driven wheels 4WD
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Bone stock GTR traps ~120, not sure what an additional 100whp would net, I'm just sayin though, the car's top speed is ~193mph bone stock, M3 is what? 185mph? I've never seen anything that would point in the direction of the M3 being a better top-end car. AWD versus RWD is about it, and that's minimal. Weight difference is only ~150lbs, not crazy, and again GTR is more aerodynamic, here's the numbers, since I was pretty curious myself. I'll be honest, I think a large ST N54 would have a better chance. Like Terry's or @Ak335i, or mine shortly

    Frontal drag area (obviously M3 would probably be slightly more since it's a bit wider)
    6.80 sq ft 0.632 m2 2007 BMW 335i Coupe
    6.08 sq ft 0.565 m2 2008 Nissan GTR
    And here's a drag coefficient comparison

    2007 Lamborghini Gallardo
    Cd 0.34
    Frontal area 1.95 meters^2
    CdA = 0.663

    2009-2011 GT-R
    Cd 0.27
    Frontal area 2.09 meters^2
    CdA = 0.564

    2011 Turbo and Turbo S Coupe
    Cd 0.31
    Frontal area 2.05 meters^2
    CdA = 0.635

    C6 Z06
    Cd 0.34
    Frontal area 2.07 meters^2
    CdA = 0.703

    Veyron
    Cd 0.36
    Frontal area 2.07 meters^2
    CdA = 0.745

    And the M3...
    E92 M3 drag coefficient: 0.31
    http://crm.bmw.ca/compare/compare_re...=XBB90BMC111A0

    E90 M3 drag coefficient: 0.30
    http://crm.bmw.ca/compare/compare_re...C112A0&model2=

    E93 M3 drag coefficient: 0.32
    http://crm.bmw.ca/compare/compare_re...C113A0&model2=
    I'm glad you included the frontal areas. What is it for the E92?

    The DCT is geared to 200+ on the M3. Who cares what the stock top speed is anyway when we aren't talking stock cars?

    Who cares what the stock trap speed is for that matter either?

    ST N54? You're dreaming. It takes an N54 what, 700 whp to run just 132? The M3 is much more efficient with its horsepower than the N54 or the GTR for that matter. The GTR doesn't defy the laws of physics.

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    BMW M3 DCT
    Gear / Ratio / Max Speed / RPM drop on upshift
    1st 4.780 44
    2nd 2.933 71 5200
    3rd 2.153 97 6200
    4th 1.678 124 6500
    5th 1.390 150 6900
    6th 1.203 173 7300
    7th 1.000 208 7000
    Final Ratio 3.154
    Redline 8400

    TRANSMISSION
    Transmission type GR6 Dual Clutch Transmission
    Gear ratio 1st 4.056
    2nd 2.301
    3rd 1.595
    4th 1.248
    5th 1.001
    6th 0.796
    Reverse 3.383
    Final drive ratio 3.700
    Driven wheels 4WD
    Gearing favors the M3 thanks to its redline, no matter what gear you're in.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Torque wins DIG races like these like it or not... Sorry for the M3 but....It is pretty obvious that the only time the M3 will see a little bit of a limelight of this race is in the gear that it starts the race at but after that when the GTR switches gear and goes into its peak torque again on the next gear.. It will be bus lengths ahead and not waiting for the M3 to claw back with its extra 1500 rpm up top. You can't move without torque.. That's always been the let down of this motor isn't it. Want it to rip the GTR? Bolt a pair of turbos to the v8 then we're talking serious.

    It's a great package round the track but for all out straight line power which the owner have justified of the GTR over it here and to be naive about it talking bout which speed it should have started off in gear to have a chance is just plain sore... Even a rerun. Then again, I'd rather drive an M3 at this age anytime... It's not all about the power always. Been enough in many GTR's even a fully built 1050 whp AMS equipped car , there's just no refinement in the drive. Still a Jap after all... Click here to enlarge

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    How would you describe the difference in handling between the two? Obviously the GTR is much heavier, but does it feel heavier? Which has tighter steering (harder to turn the steering wheel)? Would you say that the steering input is more responsive in one or the other? etc.

    Awesome review!
    Click here to enlarge


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