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Thread: Government shutdown, does anyone even notice anything different?

              
  1. #51
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    I got shafted out of my end of the year bonus do to the State and Federal Parks being shut down. I work for a Guided camping touring company. So we have had to cancel several trips and lose out on a lot of money. So this is bull$#@! thanks US GOV. for nothing like usual.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ILB6 IF ULB9 Click here to enlarge
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    I got shafted out of my end of the year bonus do to the State and Federal Parks being shut down. I work for a Guided camping touring company. So we have had to cancel several trips and lose out on a lot of money. So this is bull$#@! thanks US GOV. for nothing like usual.

    I just don't understand how these parks can't support themselves, and aren't there massive donations as well to these parks? Really ridiculous
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ILB6 IF ULB9 Click here to enlarge
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    I got shafted out of my end of the year bonus do to the State and Federal Parks being shut down. I work for a Guided camping touring company. So we have had to cancel several trips and lose out on a lot of money. So this is bull$#@! thanks US GOV. for nothing like usual.
    I'm sorry to hear man. I forget this does have real effects for people.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by yage202 Click here to enlarge
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    The least effective congresses(sp) back to back to back.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    Canada has public health care, but why is it that tens of thousands choose to cross the border to receive our health care? Why is it people all over the world from nations with public healthcare come to the United States to receive care? Answer that one for me.
    I put the "" around foreign because to US citizens the whole world is foreign. And off course you only zoomed in on the Netherlands. Which is fine as an example but look beyond that.
    If you dive a little into the subject instead of closing your eyes to the rest of the world
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    or anywhere else, I do not live, I do not have any say, so why should I care?
    you will find that all 1st world countries have some sort of public healthcare system with the US of A as the big odd one out.
    All systems work more or less the same, so your system is not a brilliantly different concept.
    You are not the first country who switched to public health, and all other countries have lived thru this so why should the US be different.


    I have other stories about the consequences of your current healthcare system/insurance obligations combined with job obligations which in the end made me lose a friend due to sustained injury and not being able to recover due to his obligation to work to keep his health insurance. But I'm not gonna bore you with that.

    In the end, we're talking politics here, so we can agree to disagree. There is no right or wrong, only opinions and consequences.

    And I'm not interfering in US domestic affairs. This is a global forum with just a lot of US members, not a US forum where foreign members are allowed, unless I'm mistaken. So I can state my opinion here just like you.
    It's just most of the times I truly regret being sucked into political discussions with US republicans because they are not susceptible to reason and fall into the strangest rhetoric arguments, being it about army, guns, healthcare. But it happens from time to time... I can't help myself apparently.
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    I put the "" around foreign because to US citizens the whole world is foreign.
    Correct...and to you anything outside the Netherlands is considered foreign, that is the meaning of the word, non-domestic.

    Your post about Democrats "accomplishments" is a joke. Stimulus with tax cuts to the middle class? What tax cuts? There were no tax cuts, that is a joke. That "stimulus" package was a joke, and mind you still hasn't even been funded so...so much for that "stimulus" The last REAL tax cuts were by George W. Bush and the only tax cuts that Obama has ever signed off on was extending the Bush tax cuts during his first term, why? Cause that was the only hope of salvaging any economy, not to raise taxes. You are way out of your element man, and maybe you call me a Republican, fine, I don't care, I guess I'll take that purely in the point of my conservative economic views. But keep in mind as far as taxes go that not only did Obama let the Bush tax cuts expire last year, but he increased the rate beyond what they would have been had the Bush tax cuts simply expired. All of this WITHOUT lowering the business tax rate....great combo for killing an economy.

    I don't deny that positive changes can't be made to our healthcare system, but a quick, unthought out overly expensive system written overnight is not the answer. Public provided insurance telling doctors what they will be paid is NOT THE ANSWER. That's what this program does, what you don't understand is how different this program is that the Obama administration has come up with than most other healthcare systems around the world.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    I don't deny that positive changes can't be made to our healthcare system, but a quick, unthought out overly expensive system written overnight is not the answer. Public provided insurance telling doctors what they will be paid is NOT THE ANSWER. That's what this program does, what you don't understand is how different this program is that the Obama administration has come up with than most other healthcare systems around the world.
    I think the negotiation in Congress over the ACA went on for months before the two chambers agreed to a bill and the President signed it. In February of 2009, Obama formally announced plans to pursue health care reform in a speech given to a joint session of Congress. In July of that year, health care reform passed votes in committees in both the House and the Senate. In March of 2010, the ACA was signed into law by Obama.

    I believe the ACA creates insurance exchanges, meant to be run by the states, which allow people without current insurance to buy private health insurance plans from private health insurance companies. It's like your town deciding to set up a farmer's market in the town square where you can buy produce from the farmers. The insurance is not provided by the government, the government just creates a central location for people to buy private insurance.

    The insurance plans offered by the exchanges must meet minimum coverage requirements an they cannot turn down people for having pre-existing or chronic health problems (the people with the most need for insurance). If you currently have health insurance (through your employer or otherwise) you do not have to participate in the exchanges. Every insurance plan needs to properly define what doctors will and won't be paid for. Even employer sponsored private plans don't give doctors the ability to run up endless charges for any medical procedure they want. Have you ever seen the tiered list of drugs defining what your prescription coverage covers? No prescription coverage I've ever had covers all drugs equally.

    If you choose not to participate and continue to go un-insured, you will be charged a fee because all types of insurance rely of spreading the risk across a large pool of people. If all 300+ million Americans have insurance, the pool is as large as it can be, and the risk to each individual in at its minimum. It's estimated that slightly fewer than 50 million Americans are uninsured currently.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
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    I think the negotiation in Congress over the ACA went on for months before the two chambers agreed to a bill and the President signed it. In February of 2009, Obama formally announced plans to pursue health care reform in a speech given to a joint session of Congress. In July of that year, health care reform passed votes in committees in both the House and the Senate. In March of 2010, the ACA was signed into law by Obama.

    I believe the ACA creates insurance exchanges, meant to be run by the states, which allow people without current insurance to buy private health insurance plans from private health insurance companies. It's like your town deciding to set up a farmer's market in the town square where you can buy produce from the farmers. The insurance is not provided by the government, the government just creates a central location for people to buy private insurance.

    The insurance plans offered by the exchanges must meet minimum coverage requirements an they cannot turn down people for having pre-existing or chronic health problems (the people with the most need for insurance). If you currently have health insurance (through your employer or otherwise) you do not have to participate in the exchanges. Every insurance plan needs to properly define what doctors will and won't be paid for. Even employer sponsored private plans don't give doctors the ability to run up endless charges for any medical procedure they want. Have you ever seen the tiered list of drugs defining what your prescription coverage covers? No prescription coverage I've ever had covers all drugs equally.

    If you choose not to participate and continue to go un-insured, you will be charged a fee because all types of insurance rely of spreading the risk across a large pool of people. If all 300+ million Americans have insurance, the pool is as large as it can be, and the risk to each individual in at its minimum. It's estimated that slightly fewer than 50 million Americans are uninsured currently.
    That's very sugar-coated, and not at all how the bill was passed. It was first delivered to congress without even time to read through the bill and forced to vote on it. That's how the bill was originally passed, yes there have been revisions, but there is still not transparency in fully detailing clearly everything the bill entails. On top of that you're forgetting about the government funding and taxpayer costs with the bills, it's actually similar to how they screwed up our lending by saying, you are going to give these loans, bad or not, and if they fail and you cannot handle the loss the government will pick up the slack for you. Same thing is happening with insurance. They are forcing insurers to write bad policies more or less and then in a sense insuring the insurance companies by picking up the losses afterwards.

    As for taxpayers, the Obamacare is going to turn the health insurance business into a similar system as the progressive tax system, the rich will pay more than everyone else to pick up the slack for the people who really can't afford it.

    My fear of the quality of care is that it will be limited to keep costs down as well and the government will deem what is necessary and unnecessary when it comes to treating someone.

    In the end, there's just a lot of questions that need to be answered before this program should have been rolled out, and even the people behind this program aren't ready and don't have the answers to many questions.

    Here's the health secretary on a very liberal show mind you...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    That's very sugar-coated, and not at all how the bill was passed. It was first delivered to congress without even time to read through the bill and forced to vote on it. That's how the bill was originally passed, yes there have been revisions, but there is still not transparency in fully detailing clearly everything the bill entails. On top of that you're forgetting about the government funding and taxpayer costs with the bills, it's actually similar to how they screwed up our lending by saying, you are going to give these loans, bad or not, and if they fail and you cannot handle the loss the government will pick up the slack for you. Same thing is happening with insurance. They are forcing insurers to write bad policies more or less and then in a sense insuring the insurance companies by picking up the losses afterwards.

    As for taxpayers, the Obamacare is going to turn the health insurance business into a similar system as the progressive tax system, the rich will pay more than everyone else to pick up the slack for the people who really can't afford it.

    My fear of the quality of care is that it will be limited to keep costs down as well and the government will deem what is necessary and unnecessary when it comes to treating someone.

    In the end, there's just a lot of questions that need to be answered before this program should have been rolled out, and even the people behind this program aren't ready and don't have the answers to many questions.

    Here's the health secretary on a very liberal show mind you...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZiiS2XGHt0
    You speak as if the health plans offered on the exchanges are the only ones available. If you have your own insurance, you do not need to use the exchanges. The exchanges simply set up a minimum level of coverage for people so they can get preventative care to prevent them from having to fall back on the ER for immediate care when they become ill. The tax payers already end up paying for the uninsured seeking ER treatment through subsidies given to the hospitals which are required to treat anyone who walks through the door in the ER. So from a personal responsibility aspect, the only way to go is to get your own insurance.

    Much like on a car, preventative treatment is less expensive than waiting for a catastrophe to happen. The government realizes this and that is why it is subsidizing certain individuals to make it possible for them to afford insurance.

    Not everyone can afford to get a policy for themselves under the older system if their employer does not offer healthcare as a benefit. It can cost many hundred of dollars to buy insurance for yourself. My mother and stepfather were paying more than $1000 a month because he was working (as an electrical engineer, hardly a trivial job) for a small defense company founded and run by retired armed services veterans. These men got health insurance through the government so they did not offer it at their company. My stepfather and my mother had to seek insurance privately, and for what they paid for it, they could have bought a second home. Could you imagine how much it would have been if they also had to insure two kids? With an ever increasing number of jobs hiring only contractors that do not get benefits, this is becoming more of a problem. Could you imagine someone working multiple part time minimum wage jobs trying to afford insurance on under the old system? The exchanges make insurance more affordable. The more people who enroll the more the risk gets spread out, and the less the premiums should be.

    As for uncertainty surrounding the ACA, if you are among the 85% of those who already have insurance you have nothing to worry about as nothing will change. If you are unfortunate enough to not have insurance, then this opens an avenue towards affordable insurance for you. If you refuse to get coverage, you are not being personally responsible because something could happen to you at any time and if you show up in the ER without insurance, the taxpayers are paying for it.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Our healthcare system is a joke. Nobody from Canada is coming over to "get our" healthcare, that's a statement that holds no water at all. Especially when you find out that out of the most modern developed countries the USA has the worst healthcare. Some actual facts:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/us-he...d-world-2013-1

    And yes we pay the most for it, out the ass pretty much compared to the other countries. That saying where: "we pay the most then it must be the best" actually is completely false and not true. Our healthcare has been steadily going down, it sucks, times have changed, need to keep up with them. Health insurance companies should have no right to withhold treatment for preexisting conditions (Who the $#@! thinks that's a good idea?), and with this healthcare reform they wont be able to, which is a no-brainer!!!

    You have no idea how many times I had to get on the phone with insurance reps and how many times I've had to fight for money that they were trying to stuff down my mothers throat basically for bull$#@! and stupid technicalities.

    My mother has hearing loss and thanks to the insurance companies she has to go and get a hearing test done in A SOUNDPROOF BOOTH!!! WITH HEADPHONES!!!! These kinds of conditions do not exist in the real world!!! A test where a person sits next to a speaker in a doctors office makes more sense, because that's what people have to deal with. Not with $#@! like this: "According to your hearing test you do not need a cochlear implant, you'll be fine with just a hearing aid!!! Good news!!!! We also do not provide coverage for hearing aids since it's not a medical procedure, have a nice day and thanks for choosing our service!!!!"

    Meanwhile the doctor says she's a good candidate for the procedure.....but alas the insurance company has to have the last word....cause without it the doctor wont get paid. If an insurance company could get away with telling people who are hard of hearing to learn sign language then they would do just that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
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    You speak as if the health plans offered on the exchanges are the only ones available. If you have your own insurance, you do not need to use the exchanges. The exchanges simply set up a minimum level of coverage for people so they can get preventative care to prevent them from having to fall back on the ER for immediate care when they become ill. The tax payers already end up paying for the uninsured seeking ER treatment through subsidies given to the hospitals which are required to treat anyone who walks through the door in the ER. So from a personal responsibility aspect, the only way to go is to get your own insurance.

    Much like on a car, preventative treatment is less expensive than waiting for a catastrophe to happen. The government realizes this and that is why it is subsidizing certain individuals to make it possible for them to afford insurance.

    Not everyone can afford to get a policy for themselves under the older system if their employer does not offer healthcare as a benefit. It can cost many hundred of dollars to buy insurance for yourself. My mother and stepfather were paying more than $1000 a month because he was working (as an electrical engineer, hardly a trivial job) for a small defense company founded and run by retired armed services veterans. These men got health insurance through the government so they did not offer it at their company. My stepfather and my mother had to seek insurance privately, and for what they paid for it, they could have bought a second home. Could you imagine how much it would have been if they also had to insure two kids? With an ever increasing number of jobs hiring only contractors that do not get benefits, this is becoming more of a problem. Could you imagine someone working multiple part time minimum wage jobs trying to afford insurance on under the old system? The exchanges make insurance more affordable. The more people who enroll the more the risk gets spread out, and the less the premiums should be.

    As for uncertainty surrounding the ACA, if you are among the 85% of those who already have insurance you have nothing to worry about as nothing will change. If you are unfortunate enough to not have insurance, then this opens an avenue towards affordable insurance for you. If you refuse to get coverage, you are not being personally responsible because something could happen to you at any time and if you show up in the ER without insurance, the taxpayers are paying for it.

    So if this system is as advertised and as you say it is (I wish it was), where is the over 1 trillion dollars going that this apparently cost? I believe 1.7 trillion is the figure. That's a lot of money for a website that only helps you shop for insurance. I'm all for change, I just don't have faith in this administration to do anything right as they haven't yet, and so far this program seems like a sham.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    So if this system is as advertised and as you say it is (I wish it was), where is the over 1 trillion dollars going that this apparently cost? I believe 1.7 trillion is the figure. That's a lot of money for a website that only helps you shop for insurance. I'm all for change, I just don't have faith in this administration to do anything right as they haven't yet, and so far this program seems like a sham.
    That cost is over ten years where the bill is implemented fully, specifically 2012-2022. It does not include all parts of the bill, only the insurance coverage. According to the CBO, the ACA reduces the deficit.

    Those amounts do not reflect the total budgetary impact of the ACA. That legislation includes many other provisions that, on net, will reduce budget deficits.


    http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44176

    The CBO report on the net effect of repealing the ACA is interesting as well.

    http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43471
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
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    It does not include all parts of the bill, only the insurance coverage.
    See...there's the problem right there...there's more to it...which is what I'm trying to say, there is so much more to this bill yet to be seen, there is not much reason to get upset over what has happened so far, but the problem is there is so much more going on. Next year businesses are affected, the year after the real funding begins...there's a lot of questions with no answers and no clear goal set by anyone writing it. Lets make sure everyone has insurance and is provided good quality health care...ok...fine....how? Who's paying? Who's providing? Where's the manpower coming from?

    I'm all for solutions ridding abuse of the current system. There is an issue with people going asfar as refusing health care and calling for an ambulance everytime they need something, that's crazy expensive and bull$#@!, but I also understand you can't just shut everyone out as not everyone is abusing the system. That's the trouble...is filtering out the bad from the good and how to do that. I have no problem with making health insurance different from taxes as in EVERYBODY pays. Sadly though...it doesn't stop there.
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    I think you may have misunderstood me. The bill pays subsides for insurance, and raises revenue from multiple sources. The 1.7 trillion over ten years figure does not take into account the entire bill. It's just the spending. Overall the bill lowers the deficit over ten years according to the CBO.

    Honestly almost every bill which goes through Congress has all this BS attached which doesn't really pertain to the main part of the bill. Kind of like requiring the ACA to be delayed to keep the government open. As we have seen from the CBO, the ACA lowers the deficit. If House Republicans want to fight to deficit reduction, they should allow the ACA to proceed as designed.

    Instead what we have is an ideological struggle and an electorate that has no idea what to believed because of the PR wars. All you get through the news is coverage of the partisan controversy, and very little about how the law actually affect people.I am confident if you spend enough time looking into it, you can get down to the truth about what the Affordable Care Act does and doesn't do. You have to do your own research though, and many people probably don't even have the time to spare to do said research.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    I object to funding the senate.
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    Interesting! The European Union and China have entered into a currency swap deal. While sounding obscure, it could be the end of the beginning of the Dollars' loss of status as the World's reserve currency.

    As of Friday's debt ceiling limit, if no action taken, International pressure will grow exponentially. The US credit rating is sure to drop regardless of what the IP's (ignorant politicians) do. It may drop multiple levels if nothing changes. The markets are waiting to crash and reset to this new reality, whatever that is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    I honestly feel it is best for our nation to go through a pro-longed government shut down. This is the only way Americans will see how much involvement and control the our government has over so many things in our country. Too many Americans rely on government funding, and I personally would be devastated if our housing market fell, but that is a price I'm willing to pay if it means people in this country need to trust our capitalistic functions and realize our government is only here to protect us, and is not a crutch to lean on or even worse help us walk through life. Many of our social programs were started during tough times meant to be taken away after a period of 5-10 years, but politicians only see these programs and additional programs and funding as a way to buy the peoples' vote. In the end it is not our government or politicians to blame, it is only ourselves. We elect them, and if we feel there is no positive choice on the ballot, it is our duty to take the power away from them.

    Yes, many Americans, like many foreigners may not understand or be to fathom how a country with any money at all does not have a public health care system. I say to those people, do you think that when you call an ambulance they ask for an insurance card? Or deny care? Do you think there are no failsafes to prevent people that have no money or insurance to receiving no care at all? It may seem crude, but the market sets itself as to what is necessary. If it was possible for everyone to have health care or is possible, then the market would have or will eventually get itself there. Have you not thought about doctor shortages? Or how about doctor's wages? IMO we absolutely have the best care in the world as long as you can pay for it. Nothing wrong with that. Is our healthcare system perfect? No, I don't think it is, but it is definitely better than most. Even with a great PAID for personally health insurance, it is very difficult to get a specialist appointment. (2-3 months for an ear doctor locally). That's crazy already, can't imagine if everyone at health care.

    In the end I am so sick and tired of hearing how everyone deserves equal this and equal that. Maybe some are born into money or start off better than others, but that is only fair to their parents, grandparents, and so on and what they accomplished so that their children would not have to worry. There must be incentive for great people to do great things, and honestly if you don't get it, then don't live here. If you live here and disagree, then get the $#@! out. You don't belong here, go start a new country, after all, that is how we were founded. We wanted freedom, a sort of free-for-all type of economy. Just like this forum, no one is forcing you to be here, if you don't like it go somewhere else, why is that so hard to comprehend? Oh sorry, you don't have to money to leave? Then work 3 jobs and save up until you can, THAT'S the American way. WORKING FOR IT.
    Well said man. +1
    John 3:16


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by yage202 Click here to enlarge
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    Interesting! The European Union and China have entered into a currency swap deal. While sounding obscure, it could be the end of the beginning of the Dollars' loss of status as the World's reserve currency.

    As of Friday's debt ceiling limit, if no action taken, International pressure will grow exponentially. The US credit rating is sure to drop regardless of what the IP's (ignorant politicians) do. It may drop multiple levels if nothing changes. The markets are waiting to crash and reset to this new reality, whatever that is.
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    US default would be 'worse than Lehman': S&P executive

    http://fw.to/GNJE9lL

    This isn't an Obama thing. The moment economic contractual obligations are missed, the government has defaulted. Gambling with your credit score/rating is always a bad move!

    Through tricks and manipulation the treasury will do its best to delay the inevitable, but then we must trust them to do the right thing?

    I am not so optimistic




  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by yage202 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    US default would be 'worse than Lehman': S&P executive

    http://fw.to/GNJE9lL

    This isn't an Obama thing. The moment economic contractual obligations are missed, the government has defaulted. Gambling with your credit score/rating is always a bad move!

    Through tricks and manipulation the treasury will do its best to delay the inevitable, but then we must trust them to do the right thing?

    I am not so optimistic



    What's the worst that happens? Gold standard? Sweet...we'd be the richest nation in the world 10x over
    2009 335i coupe PARTING OUT!

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    Um they used economic scare tactics to push through that banking bailout. Whenever they start saying oh we have to do something that benefits the banks (like raising the borrowing limit) or the world will end I'm weary...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    What's the worst that happens? Gold standard?
    Contrary to popular opinion, Gold is not the answer. The price has gone nowhere since the last crisis. It is manipulated like every other asset class.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    economic scare tactics to push through that banking bailout.
    Government default is not equivalent to stimulus packages. The failure modes of these efforts are vastly different.

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