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  1. #226
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Please don't speak for another man and make guesses towards the intentions behind his words.
    It is impossible for you to do and makes you look bad.
    Several people told you your comments were well over the line and honestly just kind of pathetic. It makes you look bad, not me.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Several people told you your comments were well over the line and honestly just kind of pathetic. It makes you look bad, not me.
    I speak the truth as I see it.
    I don't give a F what anyone else thinks.

    What is pathetic is people denying reality.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    I speak the truth as I see it.
    I don't give a F what anyone else thinks.

    What is pathetic is people denying reality.
    You make generalizations and stereotype. I'm not impressed. The fact you use "statistics" to put posters here down as if they must align with those handpicked statistics shows how far you are willing to go to muddy the waters. Why don't you just flat out say you hate all black people and get it over with already considering how you disrespect them here?

    Good for you. You post a lot about it for someone who doesn't care.

  4. #229
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    Theres another side of the story i think people are forgetting. There was a 4 minute lapse between the initial call and the confrontation. Dispatch told him to stop following and he did. Trayvon did not go back to his house, he doubled back around to confront GZ and laid the first punch. If Trayvon felt like he was being followed he could have run to his fathers house or called 911 but he didnt.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    Theres another side of the story i think people are forgetting. There was a 4 minute lapse between the initial call and the confrontation. Dispatch told him to stop following and he did. Trayvon did not go back to his house, he doubled back around to confront GZ and laid the first punch. If Trayvon felt like he was being followed he could have run to his fathers house or called 911 but he didnt.
    Not only that but a lot of the posters here have wrongfully spread misinformation of what actually happened. They keep saying how the "police told him not to follow Martin" which is completely untrue and a lie. During the 911 call, while he's describing Martin to the dispatcher, Martin approaches the truck and then takes off running. Zimmerman mentions that on the phone and goes after him. It is at the time that we can hear plenty of wind noise as he's obviously running, and his speech is also changed because of that. Once the dispatcher tells him he doesn't need to follow him George says ok. After a moment the wind noise is gone and his speech is back to normal as he clearly gives up pursuit. He then says: "I've lost him, I don't know where this kid is." He then starts walking back to his truck to meet the police there, or to meet the police by the mailboxes.

    You can listen to that entire call here: http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-...-police/vGZq9/

    Once he hangs up that's where the 4 minute timer starts. George lost Martin didn't know where he was, why doesn't Treyvon take that time and the knowledge that he lost Zimmerman to go home on his merry way. But what we know from Jenteal's testimony is that eventually Martin approaches Zimmerman, and asks him: "Why are you following me for?" After a short while a struggle breaks out between the 2 of them and Martin ends up being dead.

    So no, George Zimmerman didn't run out of his car with his weapon drawn shouting racist slurs discharging his gun. He lost the bearings, and was heading back to his car to meet the police to presumably brief them on what happened and what he looked like.

    http://www.hlntv.com/embed/77411
    Click here to enlarge

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    All I know is, my guns are locked and loaded and I will freely exercise my right to protect my home/buiness/family/friends/self against any man

    If anyone feels so inclined to loot my business, you will be pumped full of lead and left on display for the rest to see.....

    You have been warned. Think twice before joining a mob mentality
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  7. #232
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    I feel it's important to address 2 points. Manslaughter could have gone either way for me because had he not gotten out of his car, we would not have this thread, but I am we'll versed in the law and understand is application.

    point 2, though I do not believe this was a racially motivated crime (jus a dumb ass being a dumb ass), there is a huge perception that America still has when it comes to race. Though we are not in the days of emit till (don't think I spelled it right), we do still have attitudes that perpetuate a cycle in America. Check this video, it is a must see for non black people to gain an u dear standing of the attitudes expressed towards black Americans daily. It also plays a role in the misguided attitude that everything is race related.

    MUST SEE MUST SEE MUST SEE
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60G...%3Dge7i60GuNRg

  8. #233
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    I feel it's important to address 2 points. Manslaughter could have gone either way for me because had he not gotten out of his car, we would not have this thread, but I am we'll versed in the law and understand is application.
    Just to brake it down to what this is about, looking at it from the outside..
    If Z would not have had a gun he would not have gotten out of his car.
    Why didn't Z just stay in the car and call the Police, and wait for them.


    If someone starts following me while I am walking down a street I have the right to do at least two things.
    1. run away
    2. confront the person and ask "why are you following me"

    If I then am confronted with someone whos ultraego is most likely close to someone lilke Paul Kersey and most definetly has his hand on a holstered gun (which to me is threatening behaviour) who is the aggressor??

    self-defense n. the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger.
    I personally can not see how the obvious aggressor (Z) can claim self defence. He is the one starting the whole incident, and he is the one bringing a gun.

    Guns give intelligently challenged people an ego boost which causes them to engage in acts which can never have a good outcome, or in simple language the opertunity to make wrong decicions.

    No Gun, nobody dead, Z would never have exited the car, and Treyvon would have continued to walk down the street, which as far as I know is not a crime, and in fact is more of a fundimental right than the right to kill someone in self defence. The right to being/living ranks highest in the hirarcy.
    1995 BMW M3GT nr:111/350 TwinTurbo and some other mods.

  9. #234
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    I agree - sorta... I believe people have the right to carry a concealed weapon - given they aren't using drugs/alcohol/etc. - do not have psychological problems, do not have a history of past aggressive behavior, etc... In most states - this is the case, and I am nearly certain FL is one of them.

    I look at it like this - what is the difference between a police officer and another person? One has a uniform and a badge - and we are taught to believe it's okay for them to shoot people. I am NOT advocating that people go around acting like an officer - that's insane... I am just saying people SHOULD have the right to carry for reasons of self defense.

    Now - about your post. I think that we don't know what really happened, so a lot of people speculate that George had intentions of killing this boy regardless of what happened... If George Z - went up to Mr. Martin and started slapping him in the face, pistol whipping him, spitting on him, etc. - then yes, this went terribly wrong. However, if George Z - an adult, went up to Mr. Martin (a "kid") and said "hey, what's going on?" - and Mr. Martin said F U and proceeded to jump on George, get him on the ground in a position that is deadly and punch him/hit his head into the concrete? That's a completely different story... If you are getting pummeled like this, and you are carrying a weapon - that's a justifiable reason to use it. That's the point of carrying a firearm.

    Either one of these things could have possibly happened - we don't know for sure.

    Regardless of what did happen - we do know the facts: one had grass stains on his knees - one had them on his back. One had scrapes/cuts on his hands - the other did not. One had scrapes/cuts/etc. on the back of his head - the other did not. One is dead, the other is not. No one saw what happened from beginning to end. We MUST believe (in the court) what George said - he is on trial for his life. He should be innocent until proven otherwise - and in this case, he was nailed to a cross before the jury spoke - by our own President for that matter... It's a mess.

    My point is - regardless of what happened, and whether people agree or disagree with the outcome - this is the law. People are allowed to carry weapons - and because they are doing so does not mean that they do not have the freedom to do what they wish. If George wanted to, he could try to rob a bank. That doesn't mean everyone shouldn't be allowed to carry a weapon, does it?

    Just because I choose to carry a weapon for self defense doesn't mean that I cannot prevent someone I see from getting raped. I am not saying these two events are even similar, but my point is - there is no grey area here. Self defense is self defense, the right to bear arms is the right to bear arms, and the right to speak (freedom) is the right to speak. There is no law that says "if you are carrying your weapon, you must not talk to anyone - as there is a chance that someone could react in an aggressive way to what you say". There IS A LAW - however, that says you cannot go around holding people against their will (in other words, I have a gun - I think you are up to something, and I hold you there at gunpoint) - this is not what happened however, as he would be in jail if this was the case.

    The court system did what it was supposed to do; he did not meet the criteria for what the state charged him with. Look at what the jury had to agree to in order to swing the decision the other direction: http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...structions.pdf

    This case was nonsense from the beginning, especially after you look at that document. They had no chance of winning this case - it was theater for the country; nothing more, nothing less. Instead of "united", we are more divided - "mission accomplished". It's $#@!ed up.

  10. #235
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    There are a lot of posters who write "if Zimmerman didn't get out of his car....," as if being active in securing your community is somehow wrong. However, it's an honorable American legacy that citizens protect each other from wrongdoing. There is also nothing illegal about following another person through a public space (especially by a resident on private property), regardless of why they are doing it.

    Why do people make this statement, and is it even relevant?

    In most neighborhoods/munincipalities, the Neighborhood Watch is endorsed (sometimes supported) by local law enforcement. The mission of the Watch is to do that - observe suspicious behavior and report. From the Sacramento Police Neighborhood Watch website:

    "How Neighborhood Watch Works
    Neighborhood Watch is a group of neighbors who believe that fighting crime is every citizen's responsibility. Each person agrees that they are responsible for taking care of themselves and to remove any obstacles that could hinder their safety and well-being; as well as that of their neighbor.

    When you start a neighborhood watch group, you will get to know your neighbors better.

    In a short time, everyone will know the working habits of their neighbors - who has dogs, how many children in the family, what cars people own. You will also learn who in your neighborhood has valuable skills to contribute, such as CPR Training. When you know these things, it becomes easier to spot suspicious people and identify vehicles that are not normally in the neighborhood."

    And

    "Participants Responsibility


    • Learn your neighbor's names and contact numbers (cell, work, home). Be able to recognize them and their vehicles without any hesitation.
    • ...
    • Learn the techniques of getting an accurate description of a suspect or a vehicle. Practice describing people and vehicles.
    • Keep an eye on your neighbor's homes and report any suspicious activities to the police department.
    • ...
    • Get Involved! Look out for each other! Be a good witness with written notes. Participate in your neighborhood Watch Program and neighborhood association."


    * "..." used to bypass irrelevant sticker displays, sign posting, paper redirecting, etc., not meaninful content.

    In other words, the Police know they can't stop all crime and need the assistance of the public. Zimmerman following Martin to get a better description, and perhaps deter a crime by merely making himself a witness, were not only legal but necessary to make such programs successful.

    Second, the concealed carrying of a firearm by a law-abiding, sane US citizen is perfectly legal.

    No, I'm not suggesting that the Neighborhood Watch endorses or supports vigilantism, as the the tenets of the organization(s) specifically prohibit such activities.

    Is it just me, or do those that make these statements seem to want all citizens to rely 100% on the police for their protection? And how would that work? If the citizenry isn't involved, how do you discourage crime? Why would anyone suggest that Zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck?

    The police can't be everywhere, all the time. 99% of the time, police are only able to cleanup and prosecute AFTER a crime. It's the exception when police intervention prevents a crime.

  11. #236
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    On a separate note: there are some posts that suggest racism on the part of Zimmerman, but that seems completely unfounded. Just read what the Neighborhood Watch site states: that you should know your neighbors; their children; dogs. Learn to spot suspicious persons and behavior. My understanding is that Trayvon didn't live there (his parents are divorced or estranged) and Zimmerman had never seen him before. Wearing a hoody, hiding his face. All things the NW teaches members to look for. Zimmerman profiled a suspicious person, not a black person. The 911 tape even bears this out - Zimmerman didn't mention race until the operator asked what color the person was.

  12. #237
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    The point of him not getting out of the car has to do with a maturity level. Everyone has the right, but not everyone is capable. The point is he severly over estimated his abilities. The gun, want to be law enforcement, 2 MMA classes, we all know this guy. The guy that thinks he's a lot tougher than he his. Unfortunately, his lesson came at the lost of someone's life. So for that reason I could have gone either way on manslaughter....

  13. #238
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    The point of him not getting out of the car has to do with a maturity level. Everyone has the right, but not everyone is capable. The point is he severly over estimated his abilities. The gun, want to be law enforcement, 2 MMA classes, we all know this guy. The guy that thinks he's a lot tougher than he his. Unfortunately, his lesson came at the lost of someone's life. So for that reason I could have gone either way on manslaughter....
    I get your point, but I don't see any evidence Zimmerman acted immature, confronted Martin, or acted like a "tough guy." Only that he followed a suspicious person while on the phone with 911.

    The confrontation appears to have been started by Martin AFTER Zimmerman lost track of him. In other words, the so-called "stalking" was over but Martin came back to confront Zimmerman. Martin could have just gone home, or anywhere else for that matter. Zimmerman returned to his vehicle to wait on the police. Martin made the conscious decision to face Zimmerman. Even the prosecution evidence supports these two facts.

    You're also making a big assumption that Zimmerman was one of "those guys" we all know. He could be one, but I haven't seen evidence of it. Wanting to be a cop isn't an indicator (maybe he wants a steady job), and neither does taking an MMA class (getting in shape?). The media (and the prosecutor) have made a big deal about Zimmerman's perfectly legal activities and that they somehow mean he had a chip on his shoulder. No one wants to talk about the fact that Martin had some shady activity in his past, nor admit that Martin was significantly taller and bigger than Zimmerman.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Regardless of what did happen - we do know the facts: one had grass stains on his knees - one had them on his back. One had scrapes/cuts on his hands - the other did not. One had scrapes/cuts/etc. on the back of his head - the other did not. One is dead, the other is not. No one saw what happened from beginning to end. We MUST believe (in the court) what George said - he is on trial for his life. He should be innocent until proven otherwise - and in this case, he was nailed to a cross before the jury spoke - by our own President for that matter... It's a mess.

    My point is - regardless of what happened, and whether people agree or disagree with the outcome - this is the law. People are allowed to carry weapons - and because they are doing so does not mean that they do not have the freedom to do what they wish. If George wanted to, he could try to rob a bank. That doesn't mean everyone shouldn't be allowed to carry a weapon, does it?

    Just because I choose to carry a weapon for self defense doesn't mean that I cannot prevent someone I see from getting raped. I am not saying these two events are even similar, but my point is - there is no grey area here. Self defense is self defense, the right to bear arms is the right to bear arms, and the right to speak (freedom) is the right to speak. There is no law that says "if you are carrying your weapon, you must not talk to anyone - as there is a chance that someone could react in an aggressive way to what you say". There IS A LAW - however, that says you cannot go around holding people against their will (in other words, I have a gun - I think you are up to something, and I hold you there at gunpoint) - this is not what happened however, as he would be in jail if this was the case.

    The court system did what it was supposed to do; he did not meet the criteria for what the state charged him with. Look at what the jury had to agree to in order to swing the decision the other direction: http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...structions.pdf

    This case was nonsense from the beginning, especially after you look at that document. They had no chance of winning this case - it was theater for the country; nothing more, nothing less. Instead of "united", we are more divided - "mission accomplished". It's $#@!ed up.
    +1. I wanted to rep you, but alas, I have no power.Click here to enlarge

    It really is sad how the Florida legal system bowed to media pressure and the threat of DOJ review. Regardless of your opinion if Zimmerman was guilty, it was clear that the state couldn't/wouldn't prove its case.

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    The confrontation is what it is....

    but I am former law enforcement officer, and I hate to say, but there is a type. It's one of the reasons I left that world. People do things to build confidence in certain areas of their lives. If you like football but feel u are week or want to be better, you go to training camp, watch videos, etc. it's builds your confidence and abilities. Z stated in prior interviews that everything he had done was to pursue this law enforcement career. The ride alongs, the school etc...having a gun is empowering to many people, as is feeling like you can hold your own in a hand to hand situation. Hence the MMA. It is his right but there are much better ways to get shape, MMA is for fighting...you have to have an interest in fight to pursue MMA. His trainer got on stand and said he wouldn't let z do anything bout shadow box out of fear that he would hurt himself (that's was funny). But the reality is, he had to asses the situation before he got out the car, which he did and believed he was capable of conducting himself in a manor that would be beneficial to the ongoing situation (break ins and such). But the rreality is he wasn't. There is a way to go about things, but that doesn't mean that everybody knows that way...and for that, I make my original statement...tho I do respect the opinions of others

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    And sorry for the typos...iPad tells you what you mean to say!!! Lol

  17. #242
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    The confrontation is what it is....

    but I am former law enforcement officer, and I hate to say, but there is a type. It's one of the reasons I left that world. People do things to build confidence in certain areas of their lives. If you like football but feel u are week or want to be better, you go to training camp, watch videos, etc. it's builds your confidence and abilities. Z stated in prior interviews that everything he had done was to pursue this law enforcement career. The ride alongs, the school etc...having a gun is empowering to many people, as is feeling like you can hold your own in a hand to hand situation. Hence the MMA. It is his right but there are much better ways to get shape, MMA is for fighting...you have to have an interest in fight to pursue MMA. His trainer got on stand and said he wouldn't let z do anything bout shadow box out of fear that he would hurt himself (that's was funny). But the reality is, he had to asses the situation before he got out the car, which he did and believed he was capable of conducting himself in a manor that would be beneficial to the ongoing situation (break ins and such). But the rreality is he wasn't. There is a way to go about things, but that doesn't mean that everybody knows that way...and for that, I make my original statement...tho I do respect the opinions of others
    I'm not trying to argue the point, I'm simply trying to understand why you made the assumption that Zimmerman was a wanna-be tough guy. Yes, he had a desire to be a policeman. Yes, he did things to learn more about the job and improve himself in whatever way possible. And, yes, he was a pathetic fighter - I thought that was funny, too.

    But I still don't see where getting out of the car makes him immature or agressive. The evidence seems to support that Zimmerman did nothing but follow, at a distance, a "suspicious person." Yes, he had a gun but did not unholster it. He did not initiate contact with the "suspicious person." When he lost sight of the "suspicious person," he returned to his vehicle.

    So what evidence are you considering, and I'm missing, that supports your assertion that Zimmerman was incapable "of conducting himself in a manor [sic] that would be beneficial to the ongoing situation (break ins and such)?"

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    And sorry for the typos...iPad tells you what you mean to say!!! Lol
    DAMN YOU, AUTOCORRECT!!!!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    I feel it's important to address 2 points. Manslaughter could have gone either way for me because had he not gotten out of his car, we would not have this thread, but I am we'll versed in the law and understand is application.

    point 2, though I do not believe this was a racially motivated crime (jus a dumb ass being a dumb ass), there is a huge perception that America still has when it comes to race. Though we are not in the days of emit till (don't think I spelled it right), we do still have attitudes that perpetuate a cycle in America. Check this video, it is a must see for non black people to gain an u dear standing of the attitudes expressed towards black Americans daily. It also plays a role in the misguided attitude that everything is race related.

    MUST SEE MUST SEE MUST SEE
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60G...%3Dge7i60GuNRg
    That video is very true. Sucks but people just try to ignore it and act like that doesn't exist.

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    Well it's simple, maybe we can look at it like this. He is essentially, performing surveillance. If he doesn't know how to effectively do it, then he shouldn't. Following distance, breaking contact, never establishing direct contact and avoiding it at all costs...aka walking away, ignoring the subject, etc. this is the exact reason all states have laws on investigations. Z was essentially investigating a situation in which he had no direct interest. Some people excersise better judgement than others. It was poor judgement in several areas that led to this. I am pro gun, pro rights, I cam carry in 46 of the 50ish states. And doing so means I have to excersise more common sense when I am carrying...so, that's a responsibility that u take on when you choose to do so. ...and auo correct is the devil!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    Well it's simple, maybe we can look at it like this. He is essentially, performing surveillance. If he doesn't know how to effectively do it, then he shouldn't. Following distance, breaking contact, never establishing direct contact and avoiding it at all costs...aka walking away, ignoring the subject, etc. this is the exact reason all states have laws on investigations. Z was essentially investigating a situation in which he had no direct interest. Some people excersise better judgement than others. It was poor judgement in several areas that led to this. I am pro gun, pro rights, I cam carry in 46 of the 50ish states. And doing so means I have to excersise more common sense when I am carrying...so, that's a responsibility that u take on when you choose to do so. ...and auo correct is the devil!!!

    You're wrong.
    Every citizen, no matter how little training, or how poor their surveillance method, has the right to follow, observe, and report......especially on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
    The police NEEDS the reporting and the witnessing of the public to function.
    How many criminal trials rely on public observer testimony to convict?
    Why do we have a 911 phone system?


    Zimmerman did NOT use poor judgement.
    Trayvon simply behaved like an animal and was put down like one.

    Blaming Zimmerman is inaccurate and disgusting.
    Please stop.
    It makes me sick.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
    Zimmerman did NOT use poor judgement.
    Trayvon simply behaved like an animal and was put down like one.

    Blaming Zimmerman is inaccurate and disgusting.
    Please stop.
    It makes me sick.
    This. /thread.

  23. #248
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    You proved my point...civilian observation...he went from observation to investigation when he decided to pursue or investigate the young mans purpose for being in the area.

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    Anyway...unfortunately there is no law against being dumb, right, wrong, indifferent. Sad...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Diablorojo Click here to enlarge
    You proved my point...civilian observation...he went from observation to investigation when he decided to pursue or investigate the young mans purpose for being in the area.
    Every citizen has the right to do what he did. What is your point?

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