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  1. #1
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    Step Back and look at our situation as a society (another gun thread) (discussion)

    With the recent shooting(S) I think its necessary to ask our group (of people who I think of as "higher society").

    Why does it seem people want to blame an item that is completely useless without people? You can use anything to "kill" someone, from a bat, to a knife (as seen in china 20 kids where attacked yesterday) to a gun, to a full automatic "assault weapon". They all will result in the same outcome.

    Maybe its the people today? Would it be possible that our society has evolved into a society without remorse? Feelings?

    What brings a person to the point of killing innocent people, for no significant reason.

    My biggest question to everyone.

    Why, since the beginning of the united states we have allowed guns, we have always had "mentally unstable" people, people physically have not changed, but as recently (past 20 years) things like this are becoming more and more common. What has changed?

    (tv,movies,games,news, religion (lack of), hate, separation of society) these are all things that have changed in the last 20 years.

    What do you think has changed in the last 20 years causing society to develop people that are committing crimes without remorse?

    Lets all be adults, no name calling, we can all have an opinion and talk about those opinions without making a mockery of ourselves.




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    Society has become more "anonymous" nowadays. People are less involved, more self-centered. I don't want to generalize too much but that's definitely a (sad) trend.

    The media dictate what's right and what's wrong, what the "ideal" citizen has to be like, what he has to look like. You don't fit in that scheme, and you're borderlined in this society.
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  3. #3
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    I think they blame it because of the ease a gun can kill with compared to a bat. Your point is true though, people will always harm each other in some way.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    With the recent shooting(S) I think its necessary to ask our group (of people who I think of as "higher society").

    Why does it seem people want to blame an item that is completely useless without people? You can use anything to "kill" someone, from a bat, to a knife (as seen in china 20 kids where attacked yesterday) to a gun, to a full automatic "assault weapon". They all will result in the same outcome.

    Maybe its the people today? Would it be possible that our society has evolved into a society without remorse? Feelings?

    What brings a person to the point of killing innocent people, for no significant reason.

    My biggest question to everyone.

    Why, since the beginning of the united states we have allowed guns, we have always had "mentally unstable" people, people physically have not changed, but as recently (past 20 years) things like this are becoming more and more common. What has changed?

    (tv,movies,games,news, religion (lack of), hate, separation of society) these are all things that have changed in the last 20 years.

    What do you think has changed in the last 20 years causing society to develop people that are committing crimes without remorse?

    Lets all be adults, no name calling, we can all have an opinion and talk about those opinions without making a mockery of ourselves.

    To start off I can say that of the 22 kids that got attacked by the knife wielding madman 22 kids lived. On the other hand, of the 20 kids attacked by the madman wielding a gun in the American elementary school, none of them survived.

    If my memory is correct the last few of the mass murders that occurred in the United States have been committed with legally obtained guns, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Tucson, and now Newtown.

    Seems like violent gun crime isn't just isolated to "criminals" or people with history of violence. Now it seems that anybody who has a gun is at risk of going nuts and going on a shooting spree. Or maybe these people are already mentally ill but somehow guns still are legally sold to them which in my eyes is a failure of gun control. Your other statements in the other thread are also relying on a lot of "if's."

    If he didn't have guns, he would've used a knife, car, explosives - which in my eyes are things you don't actually know, I can easily counter that with:

    If he didn't have such easy access to guns, then he probably wouldn't have bothered of taking it as far as he did. Those statements are just that, both on my part and yours, speculations and really have no base to build an argument upon.

    As much as you don't like it, if this trend continues, it wont be the liberals and democrats who will take the guns away from you. It will be the people who own guns but shouldn't actually be owning guns. This woman that had purchased the guns 2 days ago would be looked upon by other gun owners as a true American exercising her 2nd Amendment right, and be no doubt in my mind praised by them. Today she can be looked upon as the wrong person to own firearms, because she failed to responsibly keep them out of the hands of her son who then went on a killing spree.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    To start off I can say that of the 22 kids that got attacked by the knife wielding madman 22 kids lived. On the other hand, of the 20 kids attacked by the madman wielding a gun in the American elementary school, none of them survived.

    If my memory is correct the last few of the mass murders that occurred in the United States have been committed with legally obtained guns, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Tucson, and now Newtown.

    Seems like violent gun crime isn't just isolated to "criminals" or people with history of violence. Now it seems that anybody who has a gun is at risk of going nuts and going on a shooting spree. Or maybe these people are already mentally ill but somehow guns still are legally sold to them which in my eyes is a failure of gun control. Your other statements in the other thread are also relying on a lot of "if's."

    If he didn't have guns, he would've used a knife, car, explosives - which in my eyes are things you don't actually know, I can easily counter that with:

    If he didn't have such easy access to guns, then he probably wouldn't have bothered of taking it as far as he did. Those statements are just that, both on my part and yours, speculations and really have no base to build an argument upon.

    As much as you don't like it, if this trend continues, it wont be the liberals and democrats who will take the guns away from you. It will be the people who own guns but shouldn't actually be owning guns. This woman that had purchased the guns 2 days ago would be looked upon by other gun owners as a true American exercising her 2nd Amendment right, and be no doubt in my mind praised by them. Today she can be looked upon as the wrong person to own firearms, because she failed to responsibly keep them out of the hands of her son who then went on a killing spree.
    This is incorrect, the last three shootings. The church type place (cant think of the name) was reported that the guns where stolen, the mall shooting the guns where stolen, and this last shooting the guns where stolen.

    The people are not "crazed people with guns" most of them don't even know how to shoot them properly, thats why they only are able to kill a small number of people.

    There is no way to say "if he didn't have a gun", if the criminal wants a gun they're not hard to find, or steal (which is what they did) ILLEGALLY. So they are committing a crime, to commit a crime. I do not think crime is able to be stopped. If people want to do something, they will do it.

    From the reports I read, he went to a gun store to buy a gun 3 days before and was turned down. So he resorted to stealing one. That proves that gun laws do not work. If people want a gun, they steal one, or buy a stolen one.

    Nobody is aware how he stole weapons from his mother, for all we know he beat her until she couldn't move and she gave in. The person had mental issues. So saying it was her fault, without knowing the facts is rough.

    (the "facts" Im saying is coming from multiple news sources so who knows how "correct" it is, obviously my opinion, is just that)




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    This is incorrect, the last three shootings. The church type place (cant think of the name) was reported that the guns where stolen, the mall shooting the guns where stolen, and this last shooting the guns where stolen.

    The people are not "crazed people with guns" most of them don't even know how to shoot them properly, thats why they only are able to kill a small number of people.

    There is no way to say "if he didn't have a gun", if the criminal wants a gun they're not hard to find, or steal (which is what they did) ILLEGALLY. So they are committing a crime, to commit a crime. I do not think crime is able to be stopped. If people want to do something, they will do it.

    From the reports I read, he went to a gun store to buy a gun 3 days before and was turned down. So he resorted to stealing one. That proves that gun laws do not work. If people want a gun, they steal one, or buy a stolen one.

    Nobody is aware how he stole weapons from his mother, for all we know he beat her until she couldn't move and she gave in. The person had mental issues. So saying it was her fault, without knowing the facts is rough.

    (the "facts" Im saying is coming from multiple news sources so who knows how "correct" it is, obviously my opinion, is just that)

    Aurora guns were legal - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...ferent-stores/
    Tuscon guns were legal - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010901912.html
    Virginia Tech guns were legal - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1147121.html
    New Jersey Pathmark guns were legal - http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/09/...mark-shooting/
    Minneapolis guns were legal - http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/M...172181001.html

    Milwaukee shooting guns were purchased illegally - http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...rs-spa-shooter

    Now am I trying to argue against myself here with this example? No, that is an example of failure of current gun control.


    You say in this crime the gun was stolen, ok fine, even though I don't count it as being stolen. If a family member can take your gun from you then I see that as your failure to keep it out of their hands. And hence I put the blame on the gun owner.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    To start off I can say that of the 22 kids that got attacked by the knife wielding madman 22 kids lived....

    ....
    yes from that occurence..all 22 kids lived..but about a year ago I think..the same thing happened in china with a guy wielding a machete at a school and there were a number of casualties

  8. #8
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    Aurora guns were legal - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...ferent-stores/
    Tuscon guns were legal - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010901912.html
    Virginia Tech guns were legal - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1147121.html
    New Jersey Pathmark guns were legal - http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/09/...mark-shooting/
    Minneapolis guns were legal - http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/M...172181001.html

    Milwaukee shooting guns were purchased illegally - http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...rs-spa-shooter

    Now am I trying to argue against myself here with this example? No, that is an example of failure of current gun control.


    You say in this crime the gun was stolen, ok fine, even though I don't count it as being stolen. If a family member can take your gun from you then I see that as your failure to keep it out of their hands. And hence I put the blame on the gun owner.
    James Holmes purchased a Smith and Wesson .233 high powered semi-automatic rifle
    The news source doesn't even know the type of weapons they want to ban. its a .223.

    Im reading through the uneducated articles now.

    edit: I own a Remington 870 and it has yet to kill anybody for no reason.

    edit: Dupnik criticized lawmakers who proposed a bill in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings to allow students and teachers to carry guns to class."That's the ridiculous state to where we have become," he said.

    This would have protected children yesterday. Like it or not.

    Edit :

    "The people that you would be trying to control are not concerned about breaking some little city ordinance," she said. "If they're thinking about taking life, do you think the fact that their gun isn't properly registered is something that even crosses their minds? That's why the gun restriction laws we just think are ridiculous."

    good point
    Last edited by Legionofboom; 12-15-2012 at 03:50 PM.




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    Tell me why then isn't the United States the safest country to live in but one with one of the highest gun related deaths. Does more guns to you mean safer society? It doesn't seem to be working as it is.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    Tell me why then isn't the United States the safest country to live in but one with one of the highest gun related deaths. Does more guns to you mean safer society? It doesn't seem to be working as it is.
    Well thats a good question, and to answer it, i shall ask you a question.

    tell me why the gun related crime rates are highest in places its hardest to get guns?

    I personally think, If I was a criminal and I was going to rob someone, i wouldn't pick the guy with a rifle on their backs. I would pick the little lady that is helpless, wouldn't you?

    If you're theory of "if we don't have gun's nobody will get shot" is great on paper, but in society that isn't how it works.




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    That's where you're wrong. All you have to do is look at some of the countries listed in that wiki page you linked.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    Well thats a good question, and to answer it, i shall ask you a question.

    tell me why the gun related crime rates are highest in places its hardest to get guns?

    I personally think, If I was a criminal and I was going to rob someone, i wouldn't pick the guy with a rifle on their backs. I would pick the little lady that is helpless, wouldn't you?

    If you're theory of "if we don't have gun's nobody will get shot" is great on paper, but in society that isn't how it works.
    this is what i agree with.

    should everyone own a gun? no.
    do we need more laws? maybe, like taking certified classes, sure.

    do we need to enforce current laws better. YUP
    in short, nothing changes when law abiding citizens carry guns.

    what you dont hear about, are the instances in which someone carrying a gun LEGALLY saves lives. Happens more than you think

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    That's where you're wrong. All you have to do is look at some of the countries listed in that wiki page you linked.
    My facts about what states have the highest gun related crime rate is not wrong as well as having the strictest gun laws.

    How does that show you that everyone having guns results in more crime? Statistics show otherwise.

    In 2011 the applications to buy a gun went up 40%, yet gun crime went down 13%. (sourse is CBS, I dont have the link, I was reading about it last night)

    More information that is suprising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland (dont hate on wiki)

    Also, you can find a lot of stories of a gun resolving a situation without anyone dying, usually fleeing of the criminal. Without a weapon to protect yourself with you are at the mercy, like the children yesterday, they are at the mercy of the criminals.




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    Now look at Poland and tell me how that relates to Switzerland.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    Now look at Poland and tell me how that relates to Switzerland.
    Please do explain.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Please do explain.
    Country with nearly 5 times the population if Switzerland with much stricter gun laws and somehow according to that wiki page less gun related murders. It shouldn't be so right?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    Country with nearly 5 times the population if Switzerland with much stricter gun laws and somehow according to that wiki page less gun related murders. It shouldn't be so right?
    It's an interesting point.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    Country with nearly 5 times the population if Switzerland with much stricter gun laws and somehow according to that wiki page less gun related murders. It shouldn't be so right?
    here is the actual statistics
    http://www.nationmaster.com/red/coun...ri-crime&all=1

    more stats

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...er-100-000-pop

    I would not say there gun regulations is really working. We also have a much different culture then poland, and I feel like we are much more like Switzerland where we are "free to protect ourselves", rather then the mentality of "nothing will happen so we wont have to protect anything"




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    Country with nearly 5 times the population if Switzerland with much stricter gun laws and somehow according to that wiki page less gun related murders. It shouldn't be so right?
    total population of poland is?
    % on welfare
    whats violent crime like?
    whats the murder rate?
    whats the rate of theft?
    whats the police per citizen rate?
    whats the legal system like?
    how are their jails and rights to convicts?
    whats the legal system in general vs ours?

    answers needed before we use poland as a flagship

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    total population of poland is?
    % on welfare
    whats violent crime like?
    whats the murder rate?
    whats the rate of theft?
    whats the police per citizen rate?
    whats the legal system like?
    how are their jails and rights to convicts?
    whats the legal system in general vs ours?

    answers needed before we use poland as a flagship
    here
    http://www.nationmaster.com/red/coun...ri-crime&all=1




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    I have a family emergency I need to bow out of this thread for now.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Everyone is trying to blame this to one single aspect and looking for a single solution to solve this complicated matter. People who are pro-gun are so fixated on defending their guns, that they fail to see that part of the problem is how easy it is to legally acquire a gun and use it for malicious use. People who are anti-gun are so quick to blame this on guns, that they don't see that part of the problem is not the actual guns that do the damage, its the people with the evil intent that do the damage with the said weapon.

    Part of the problem is how easy it is to legally acquire a gun, part of the problem is how lacking our mental healthcare system really is, part of the problem is the lack of security in schools as well as other areas, part of the problem is our justice system... there really is no simple fix for this matter. Sometimes there really isn't a fix for this and maybe this is the best that we can do for now.

    People need to put their agendas, egos, and politics aside to review each and every single element that may have contributed to this awful tragedy. This is too much of a tragedy to let partiality keep us from finding a solution to this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 Click here to enlarge
    ...there really is no simple fix for this matter. Sometimes there really isn't a fix for this and maybe this is the best that we can do for now.

    .....
    I pretty much agreed with every word in your post until I read this. I cant believe that this is the best we can do..while there may not be one "fix it all" solution..there are other things that can be done which may not fix everything, but they can lower the chances of this happening again.

    I would also say, while its pretty easy to get a gun, its also pretty easy for criminals to get thier hands on illegal guns

    I think if we had armed security guards in schools, or teachers being allowed to carry, some of these things could be avoided.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    I have a family emergency I need to bow out of this thread for now.
    Hope everything is ok.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    I have a family emergency I need to bow out of this thread for now.
    Hope everyone is ok.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Hope everything is ok.
    damn sticky you're good lol




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