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Thread: 27 dead in school shooting? What in the actual $#@!.

              
   
  1. #351
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
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    I suspect not which means the amendment needs to be updated.
    No weapons were specified in the 2nd amendment because it is irrelevant what the weapon is. It's a philosophy, not a list of what guns you can own.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
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    Forgive my ignorance but were assault weapons like AK47's available when your 2nd amendment was written? I suspect not which means the amendment needs to be updated.
    The Internet, compact discs, television, motion pictures, radio, phonographs, and photographs were not available when the 1st Amendment was written. Do these forms of media not deserve to be protected as the quill pens and parchment were in the times of the Constitution? Certainly the Founders did not imagine that we would one day have the ability to create a motion picture of two women eating a cup full of feces. But it is protected as free expression all the same.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
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    The Internet, compact discs, television, motion pictures, radio, phonographs, and photographs were not available when the 1st Amendment was written. Do these forms of media not deserve to be protected as the quill pens and parchment were in the times of the Constitution
    And there you have it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    Comparing cars and firearms are we, this ANR Logic is nuts.

    Ownership of cars is very wide spread, almost everyone uses one
    they are used more and for longer than guns
    Most of the time when someone is killed by a car its accident and not premeditated
    A car is not designed to kill, a gun is designed to kill

    Lostmarine I read your long post above, If you think you need to sleep with an AR15 under your bed and full magazines in a drawer near by, and have actually thought of response time, I would actually go as far as classifying you as boarderine mental, this is paranoid schizophrenia! If this is what you would classify as "normal home defense" than I can understand partially the discussion ongoing about mental health in general...........

    Maybe the general concept and understanding of "normal" has been totally lost throughout the years, and this is why I and some other people here can't understand what you are on about. There is so much fear being fed to you by the media that you are kept in constant distrust of everyone around you, everyone is a potential enemy.

    more guns will not fix your problem, the solution to cancer is not more cancer.
    why not i do yes the AR is not good for home defense .but i also have a 9mm right next to my head every night without fail . some back ground though i go to range several times a month i carry ccl and i and millions of people take this responsabilty very serously .

    you sound like your part of the brady campain ! and i cant tell you what idiots they are .

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    oh, just like drivers license of people 16-21 and 45 and older are tested annually? i mean they do more killings than firearms.. and driving is categorized NOW as a privelage, not a RIGHT.. sooo..
    Repped for truth.

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    I need to make a redneck meme about guns lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    What about that guy that E90SoFlo linked to the youtube video? Tyler Brehm, he wasn't mentally ill, a perfectly normal dude. It appears that he just did that, and snapped.
    you mean this guy "The ex-girlfriend also says that he had been “really stressed out lately” and began taking pills given to him by someone he believed to be a pharmaceutical sales rep. She says that was out of character for him.
    "He was very anti-pharmaceutical," Alligood, 24, says of the drug use. She also says he wasn’t the same after he started using them."

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
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    So you don't like my plan which means either you have something better or you think the system is fine as is. Are you saying it is fine for an individual who at one point was mentally stable but now is not, to possess firearms?

    Which developed country has the most loose gun laws? Which developed country has the most gun deaths...see a correlation? Forgive my ignorance but were assault weapons like AK47's available when your 2nd amendment was written? I suspect not which means the amendment needs to be updated.

    I am not saying to ban the guns you hold so precious, i am saying the law needs to be updated to reflect that the world has changed.
    your plan of taxing ammo? well, the more i think about it, it DOES work, partially, but it leads to more "crime" and other things we dont want to see. you will see it become the new black market commodity you are also setting a precedence that only the rich can now have guns, formally establishing classes in American society. sure, anyone "can" buy ammo.. but you just can use it unless your really well off..

    2nd part, assault weapons? i dont always like to repost things, BUT

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights


    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"


    The Founding Fathers on Arms

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States


    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine


    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788


    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot


    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot


    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States


    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.


    "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    Alexander Hamilton
    The Federalist Papers at 184-8



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
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    Which developed country has the most loose gun laws? Which developed country has the most gun deaths...see a correlation? Forgive my ignorance but were assault weapons like AK47's available when your 2nd amendment was written? I suspect not which means the amendment needs to be updated.

    I am not saying to ban the guns you hold so precious, i am saying the law needs to be updated to reflect that the world has changed.
    next we go on to evaluate the weapons of which were used by both sides during the Revolutionary war.. since they ARE directly relevent. at the time, bot sides was the Brown Bess. A long land version, and a short land version.. guess what the differences were? yes, size, length ect..guess who used which?
    , no, actually americans used the long land because it was readily available, cheaper, and on hand as its primarily used for hunting. The brits, o those brits, wanted a shorter version, what you may cal "an assualt" type weapon, for armed confilct.. guess when the americans started getting the short version.. yes from the frogs, i mean french.. guess when the winds of change started to come about.. roughly the same time the weaponry became equal

    sooo.. knowing the quotes above, what exactly can you intelligently infer about the TRUE intent of the founding fathers..? that the weapons MUST be on par with whatever tyrannical government that tries to enslave us again.. or that its just so americans can go hunting?

    updated? like your freedom of speech, or your driving privileges or your tax rate? all those need to be updated, because, again.. someone else is much smarter and capable of running your life, than you are. even when statistically, the highest gun crimes are in the places with the most strict gun laws..how many times do we have to invoke logic?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    you mean this guy "The ex-girlfriend also says that he had been “really stressed out lately” and began taking pills given to him by someone he believed to be a pharmaceutical sales rep. She says that was out of character for him.
    "He was very anti-pharmaceutical," Alligood, 24, says of the drug use. She also says he wasn’t the same after he started using them."
    I would like to know what kind of drug has a side effect of "Picking up a gun and shooting people in the intersection."

    A normal person has a life changing event and falls into depression, thinks of an idea to and needs drugs to help him go through with it. End result and we have Tyler Brehm. This guy has no history of mental illness and unless he's on drugs 24/7 which is completely impossible for anybody to do that, he still retains the ability of lucid thinking.

    That is a normal person going nuts.

    But if that doesn't work for you maybe this will:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1847441.html
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    I would like to know what kind of drug has a side effect of "Picking up a gun and shooting people in the intersection."
    You would think not any anti-depressant...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    You would think not any anti-depressant...
    A lot of people take anti-depressants and don't go on a shooting spree. There was a time where my mother was on anti-depressants and she didn't go nutzo. I've had friend who took anti-depressants who is also a gun owner and that didn't make him go firing out into cars.

    Not only that but LM needs to dig up a list of the drugs this guy was on to actually refute the claim that the person isn't normal. Every article that I've seen on this guy never mentions drugs as the cause. The headlines usually read "Drugs may have been a factor". And the only reason that is talked about is because his girlfriend mentions that. Whether he had drugs in his system during the shooting that is not confirmed, that is just pure speculation.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    A lot of people take anti-depressants and don't go on a shooting spree. There was a time where my mother was on anti-depressants and she didn't go nutzo. I've had friend who took anti-depressants who is also a gun owner and that didn't make him go firing out into cars.
    Not everyone taking these drugs becomes a mass killer, just like not every gun in existence is used in a crime.

    However, one thing that Columbine, Aurora, Newtown, and probably many other mass shooting have in common... The perps were taking anti-depressants.
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    Article is too big to post in its entirety, but there are some interesting arguments here.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-pet..._b_218465.html

    It's worth re-emphasizing that used of antidepressants is based more on myth than on science. Here are some proven facts totally at odds with medical propaganda:

    First, there is no evidence that antidepressants prevent suicide and a great deal of evidence that they cause it.

    Second, antidepressants almost never cure depression and instead they frequently worsen depression.

    Third, antidepressants never cure biochemical imbalances. Instead, they always cause them. There are no known biochemical imbalances in the brains of depressed people until they start taking toxic psychiatric drugs and every person who takes one of these drugs end up with a significant biochemical disturbance in the brain. That's how the drugs work--by disrupting normal biochemical processes in the brain.

    Fourth, when all antidepressant studies are examined as a group, rather than cherry picked by the drug companies, antidepressants are no better than placebo.
    ... and ...

    The FDA requires drug companies to list the following negative effects in their descriptions of their antidepressant medications: "anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity...and mania." We are giving our troops drugs that provide a prescription for uncontrolled, disinhibited violence, including agitation, irritability, impulsivity, hostility, and aggressiveness.
    Last edited by whoosh; 12-21-2012 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Formatting
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    I would like to know what kind of drug has a side effect of "Picking up a gun and shooting people in the intersection."

    A normal person has a life changing event and falls into depression, thinks of an idea to and needs drugs to help him go through with it. End result and we have Tyler Brehm. This guy has no history of mental illness and unless he's on drugs 24/7 which is completely impossible for anybody to do that, he still retains the ability of lucid thinking.

    That is a normal person going nuts.

    But if that doesn't work for you maybe this will:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1847441.html

    have you watched any pharma commercials where sideffects are delusion, suicidal thoughts, depression ect? come on now.. if hes on drugs, he's on drugs. then he is not normal. todays society, thanks to pharma sponsored bills and commercials would have you believe that taking drugs will "make you feel better" and cure your problems, instead of dealing with them.. those are the mental health issues we need to fight.. how ironic is it that all these "normal" people were taking psycho altering drugs? they didnt commit crimes before being on pharma grade drugs, only after.. so whats the connection? its drugs, + irresponsible gun owners.. oh wait.. if dude killed his mom, is that normal? i mean, what is stopping a killer from taking a key from his mom once his mom is dead. welp.. nothing.. so its the guns fault now.. see how this all reverts back to mental issues yet..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    A lot of people take anti-depressants and don't go on a shooting spree.
    more peopleown guns and dont go on shooting spree's, so, thanks for arguing on the pro-gun side

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
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    Article is too big to post in its entirety, but there are some interesting arguments here.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-pet..._b_218465.html

    It's worth re-emphasizing that used of antidepressants is based more on myth than on science. Here are some proven facts totally at odds with medical propaganda:

    First, there is no evidence that antidepressants prevent suicide and a great deal of evidence that they cause it.

    Second, antidepressants almost never cure depression and instead they frequently worsen depression.

    Third, antidepressants never cure biochemical imbalances. Instead, they always cause them. There are no known biochemical imbalances in the brains of depressed people until they start taking toxic psychiatric drugs and every person who takes one of these drugs end up with a significant biochemical disturbance in the brain. That's how the drugs work--by disrupting normal biochemical processes in the brain.

    Fourth, when all antidepressant studies are examined as a group, rather than cherry picked by the drug companies, antidepressants are no better than placebo.
    ... and ...

    The FDA requires drug companies to list the following negative effects in their descriptions of their antidepressant medications: "anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity...and mania." We are giving our troops drugs that provide a prescription for uncontrolled, disinhibited violence, including agitation, irritability, impulsivity, hostility, and aggressiveness.
    exactly.. thank you..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    more peopleown guns and dont go on shooting spree's, so, thanks for arguing on the pro-gun side
    No the argument here is not pro gun vs. ant-gun, because I'm not anti-gun for probably the millionth time. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that? Now the argument here is that you say: (You) "Normal people can't snap and start shooting people" vs. (Me) "Normal people use their guns to shoot other people." Stay on topic.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    exactly.. thank you..
    No not exactly, what drugs was Tyler Brehn taking? While you're at it see what kind of drugs Terrence Tyler was on as well or what mental illness.

    Exactly, Thank you.
    Last edited by sr20seb; 12-21-2012 at 01:48 PM. Reason: forgot another guy
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    What happened here? I always read comments on forums and news sites, "If this was Texas, this dude would have 20 people shoot his ass before he could kill somebody"

    Well here's Texas:

    http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=8926644

    Guess the neighborhood is still safe and they can all sleep soundly. Both the gun owners exercising their 2nd Amendment rights survived to live another day and squeeze off some more rounds. The only collateral damage? a mother of 2, the only person not shooting.

    Yeah, we'll never hear about these stories on the "Liberal media either."

    Am I the only one here that can see that guns made this situation far worse than it could have been? Or did it somehow make this better? A stupid road rage incident where I'm sure more than a good handful of us have once been a witness to, or even a part in. Where it should end in just a few, insults thrown back and forth, and then a stupid story to tell to your buddy about that one $#@! you encountered on the road. Here it ends in tragedy and 2 kids losing a mother in a blink of an eye, a flash of a muzzle, a squeeze of a trigger......
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    and what is the NRA's response, more guns at school....kids are dying because there are too many guns so what do they want...more guns.


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    In their defense their idea is to have trained and armed security guards at schools. Wasn't the response to 9/11 to have trained, armed security guards on planes?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    In their defense their idea is to have trained and armed security guards at schools. Wasn't the response to 9/11 to have trained, armed security guards on planes?
    They had armed sky marshals before 9/11. After 9/11, they decided that pilots could have a semi-auto handgun in the cockpit if they chose to do so.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
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    They had armed sky marshals before 9/11. After 9/11, they decided that pilots could have a semi-auto handgun in the cockpit if they chose to do so.
    I don't think the sky marshal's were as prevalent but point being armed guards were a solution. Armed guards are used in lot's of places, I don't see the issue.

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    Yes, they definitely stepped up the marshals after 9/11.

    As for guards at schools...

    Click here to enlarge
    Current: '06 Cayman S | '12 E91 328i X-drive | '00 S2000
    Previous: '12 E92 335is w/JB4 | '10 STi w/Cobb, RCE, Whiteline
    Coming Soon: '15 Macan S | '15 WRX STi

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