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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    I simply said watch the video didnt I? Our shift points are actually identical. You can hear his tranny shift and see my car squat, ZERO ground was lost or made up.... If anything my car was heavier cause I am a bigger guy as both car weight in the 3600lb range plus driver.
    I'll be the first to agree that no human can rip off a shift in 50 MS or something in that range.

    But...

    In watching the videos of Laloosh & LM racing, what I thought was odd was LM's M3 wasn't pulling ahead of Laloosh when his car shifted. You would expect if both vehicles are shifting at the same times, the vehicle that can complete the shift *faster* will pull ahead a bit and gain some advantage...but this wasn't shown to be true in that video IIRC.

    If Laloosh had made the claim that he lined up with LM and lost no ground to LM's DCT when it shifted, we'd at the very least view those comments with a bunch of skepticism. But hey, he's got it on video and there doesn't seem to be any advantage with the DCT in this quarter mile run.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It is a physical impossibility for you to shift anywhere near a dual clutch. IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. A DCT will outshift you 100 times out of 100 times. There is no way around it
    Agree with that statement...but then one would expect the DCT car to gain "some" advantage each time it shifts, but the video we're talking about doesn't seem to reflect this.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    I out trapped and raped every one I raced....
    Someone needs to build you a statue already or get a permission slip signed by you before they race their manual.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    And yes, give me a 6mt m3, and line me up with an equally modded dct one and the dct will not win. But you don't believe me and that's ok.
    Ah, I see. So we should base things on your ego and not empirical data. Whatever world you want to live in where you shift so fast you make dual clutches obsolete is fine by me.

    For some reason every other driver in the world needs to follow the laws of physics except you.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    The bottom line here is really fuggin simple... Some of us @Sledgehammer @Laloosh @Blaizon (To name a few) can be fast no matter what trans is in the car as we have the skills to do so. Many of you (Fanboys, wannabe's, skill less twerps and so on LOL) will ONLY be fast with a paddle at your finger tips. Thats not skill thats situational and that puts drivers a a deficit, personally if you can't drive a stick and heel toe, rev match, power shift or do a clutch less shift then your skill sets are seriously limited. Thats a fact not an opinion.
    Your point on driver skill is great and all but it what is a fact is that a dual clutch will beat a manual in the same car no matter who the hell is driving it. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want for rowing your own gears as you stare at taillights.

    And no, a DCT or auto does not take away your driving skill it allows you to concentrate on accelerating, turning, braking, etc and to do so more consistently. Not rowing your own gears does not suddenly make you retarded.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Glad you have the patience to type that up, great post for the paddle pushers who thing they are drivers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf357ZY1SHI
    This is quick.

    This is quick
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uEgB...4&feature=plcp
    Who cares?

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    Agree with that statement...but then one would expect the DCT car to gain "some" advantage each time it shifts, but the video we're talking about doesn't seem to reflect this.
    That's because the cars accelerate similarly over a distance. The M3 spends more time accelerating to equal what the 5.0 is able to do in less time and that is what makes them even in this race. Give the 5.0 a DCT and watch it win versus the DCT M3 in that same distance due to the time picked up over that same distance.

    If a 911 Carrera S manual is equal to a DCT M3 does that mean it shifts as fast? How about if it gets a dual clutch and then wins the race is the M3 now shifting slower? See the problem?

  7. #32
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    Moved to N54 as this is an N54 centered topic shift speed debate notwithstanding.

  8. #33
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    lol, ive run 2 stangs and a vette on video. in all of them, there is no percievable advantage, other than consistancy (and thats not even guaranteed in manual mode) between a properly driven manual and dct..


    lets not forget the 6MT e92 i ran that looked like it was gonna be a hell of a run.. if he didnt mis-shift everytime..

    what gives this illusion is the dct cars are easy to drive, and MOST of the manuals they race are people that do not have the basic skills to shift a car

    but on a road course, the same driver will be faster in dct due to the fact it was designed for such, eliminating the need to actually control the gearing, but just decide what gear you want

  9. #34
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    Late to the party.. But OP we need to get you going with a 15ohm upgrade and say a 40% E85 mix! Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    lol, ive run 2 stangs and a vette on video. in all of them, there is no percievable advantage, other than consistancy (and thats not even guaranteed in manual mode) between a properly driven manual and dct..
    You're comparing your car to different cars. Why in the world do you not see the problem? Give the stangs and vettes a DCT and they will be faster. Just because they are just as fast does not mean they are shifting just as fast. You guys can not be this dumb.

    Read, for god's sake, read.

    DCT M5 is 3 mph and 4/10's faster than its manual counterpart:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...er-than-manual

    PDK carrera S is 3 MPH and 7/10's faster than its manual counterpart:

    http://www.porscheboost.com/content....n-the-1-4-mile

    The DCT M3 holds all the records.

    Yes, we all get it that the driver is a large factor in a manual car. We get it. That still doesn't mean he can outshift a DCT because it's IMPOSSIBLE.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That's because the cars accelerate similarly. Give the 5.0 a DCT and watch it win versus the DCT M3.
    Yes, give the 5.0 a DCT and it may well win the race. I agree on this as well but this is not my argument or the point I am trying to make. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "The cars accelerate similarly." That is my point exactly. You have two cars virtually side by side accelerating as you said "similarly." I agree 100% that LM's DCT can shift faster than Laloosh driving his 6MT Stang. Based on that, one would expect to see LM's M3 edging out ahead after each shift his DCT makes...but we don't see that.

    If the DCT shifts out of a gear and into the next higher gear *faster* than a human driven 6MT, doesn't that mean that it then gets on to the business of getting back in the race in that higher gear and down the track just a bit faster and therefore a bit ahead of its 6MT competitor??

    I guess what's buggin' me also is that we've all seen the roll races with two cars that are pretty similarly matched. If one car is a DCT (or SMG) and the other is a manual tranny, we can see the DCT gain a bit of an advantage each time it shifts...due no doubt to the fact that it accomplishes the shift so much fastet than the human rowing the manual.
    Last edited by Blitz535i; 08-01-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    Yes, give the 5.0 a DCT and it may well win the race. I agree on this as well but this is not my argument or the point I am trying to make. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "The cars accelerate similarly." That is my point exactly. You have two cars virtually side by side accelerating as you said "similarly." I agree 100% that LM's DCT can shift faster than Laloosh driving his 6MT Stang. Based on that, one would expect to see LM's M3 edging out ahead after each shift his DCT makes...but we don't see that.
    You don't see that for several reasons. One, the cars have different gearing. Two, different powerbands. Three, intertia. Four, the DCT M3 is geared tightest 1-2-3 and too short on the top end once in 4th. Also, the objects are moving at high speed and closely matched. You aren't going to see the M3 suddenly going forward when the stang shifts only for the stand to regain and for this process to repeat. The difference over time is literally negligible so they will remain door to door due to the DCT keeping the M3 in it so to speak. The 5.0 is fast enough to keep up, due to its power/torque, not shift speed.

    The 5.0 would be a much faster car with a dual clutch. Just like a Carrera S. Just like an M5 is. There is no break in the laws of physics here because two different cars get to the same point.

    Didn't the 5.0 have a tune on it during the races? So wasn't it putting out more power? The DCT is the reason it's even despite the fact you can't physically see the shift speed taking place.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Someone needs to build you a statue already or get a permission slip signed by you before they race their manual.
    You butt hurt cause no n54 has ever out trapped me same day at the track? Facts are facts

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ah, I see. So we should base things on your ego and not empirical data. Whatever world you want to live in where you shift so fast you make dual clutches obsolete is fine by me.

    For some reason every other driver in the world needs to follow the laws of physics except you.
    Not obsolete , just useless if you can drive, cause they will not pull on a driver that knows how to row the gears with full effort. Those that can't shift due to skill or other reasons, go ahead keep pushing those paddles, no1 is stopping you, but to tell me you are quicker then me mod for mod cause of the tranny, I will simply laugh and make you look stupid on video.
    Last edited by Laloosh; 08-01-2012 at 02:28 PM.

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You don't see that for several reasons. One, the cars have different gearing. Two, different powerbands. Three, intertia. Four, the DCT M3 is geared tightest 1-2-3 and too short on the top end once in 4th. Also, the objects are moving at high speed and closely matched. You aren't going to see the M3 suddenly going forward when the stang shifts only for the stand to regain and for this process to repeat. The difference over time is literally negligible so they will remain door to door due to the DCT keeping the M3 in it so to speak. The 5.0 is fast enough to keep up, due to its power/torque, not shift speed.

    The 5.0 would be a much faster car with a dual clutch. Just like a Carrera S. Just like an M5 is. There is no break in the laws of physics here because two different cars get to the same point.

    Didn't the 5.0 have a tune on it during the races? So wasn't it putting out more power? The DCT is the reason it's even despite the fact you can't physically see the shift speed taking place.
    Once again, my car was bone stock with 400 miles in the video. So the 5.0 is faster but spends less time in its power zone, however it trapped lower and ran the same time? Yeak makes sense.....lol As for gearing, I have the worst gearing for drag racing according to everyone with a mustang. I have 3.31, not 3.55s or 3.73 or 3.90 or 4.10s ect ect, the tallest gear is in my car.

    The video you might be referring to is this one:

    this is a poor example because my car was not stock here and out trapped and ET steve by over half a second, it just looks closer cause he red lighted. The stock video is the video I am talking about

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Your point on driver skill is great and all but it what is a fact is that a dual clutch will beat a manual in the same car no matter who the hell is driving it. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want for rowing your own gears as you stare at taillights.

    And no, a DCT or auto does not take away your driving skill it allows you to concentrate on accelerating, turning, braking, etc and to do so more consistently. Not rowing your own gears does not suddenly make you retarded.
    That's pretty bold considering the vid of @Laloosh car being stock vs @LostMarine and the vid floating around of the two stock M3's running.

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    I wish I had a DCT.

      Click here to enlarge Spoiler:  
    Click here to enlarge
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

    2007 e92 Mont. Blue 335i | 6MT | COBB Tuned | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Helix FMIC | AA DPs | HKS Exhaust | DCI | Stett CP w/ Forged DVs | KWv2 Coilovers | UUC Sway Bars & SSK | HPF Stg 2 Clutch | HFS-4 | M3 Suspension Bits | DEFIVfab Diff Lockdown Kit | Stoptech Trophy BBK

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    I wish I had a DCT.

    So you wish you had a useless car right now due to a slipping tranny and no ability to launch like a car should launch? Nice.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    So you wish you had a useless car right now due to a slipping tranny and no ability to launch like a car should launch? Nice.
    Let me rephrase. I wish I had a DCT GTR.
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

    2007 e92 Mont. Blue 335i | 6MT | COBB Tuned | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Helix FMIC | AA DPs | HKS Exhaust | DCI | Stett CP w/ Forged DVs | KWv2 Coilovers | UUC Sway Bars & SSK | HPF Stg 2 Clutch | HFS-4 | M3 Suspension Bits | DEFIVfab Diff Lockdown Kit | Stoptech Trophy BBK

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Let me rephrase. I wish I had a DCT GTR.
    That makes more sense.

  21. #46
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    Dual clutch transmission versus manual performance and gear shift time debate or some people are ignorant

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    You butt hurt cause no n54 has ever out trapped me same day at the track? Facts are facts
    Which obviously means no N54 could as every fast N54 in existence was located in close proximity to the track when you ran. Logical.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THE TECH Click here to enlarge
    Everyone on here has touted this as a place that is open, doesn't ban people, etc. Obviously Sticky wants to show his control over another member. Seems to be the same power issue as on m3post. So call it what you want, you're being just as controlling and obviously have a beef with Mike. Why is there a user title called Guest Vendor anyway? Obviously a way to segregate those you want to control who may have been previous vendors.
    I think you are assuming a lot. There have been past issues here that have resulted in these rules, so this really has nothing to do with Mike.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Not obsolete , just useless if you can drive, cause they will not pull on a driver that knows how to row the gears with full effort. Those that can't shift due to skill or other reasons, go ahead keep pushing those paddles, no1 is stopping you, but to tell me you are quicker then me mod for mod cause of the tranny, I will simply laugh and make you look stupid on video.
    Oh, DCT is useless if someone can drive a manual. Click here to enlarge

    You apparently being the only person who can make it useless obviously since professional test drivers superior to you in every respect can't even get close to it. You clearly being superior to them and all and somehow defying what all testing and evidence supports. Logical again.

    Yes, you will make me look stupid on video by doing what nobody else has ever done because it is a physical impossibility. Good point.

    Why don't we just get down to the point of all this and have everyone pat you on the back for shifting quickly. Isn't that what you really are seeking? Some kind of validation of your driving? It's ok, you shift quickly. Everything will be fine, I promise.

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    That's pretty bold considering the vid of @Laloosh car being stock vs @LostMarine and the vid floating around of the two stock M3's running.
    I'm pretty sure he was tuned and ran at the track at some point. I'd have to go look through the old posts but it is irrelevent.

    What is bold about stating when you don't row your own gears you can concentrate on other aspects? Uh, what do the best in the world do? Let me guess, this guy knows more than Schumacher.

    This discussion is beyond retarded. The guy is justifying a manual in his mind based on a completely different car running even with a dual clutch car. That does not mean they shift equally. It's kind of funny in a sad way.

    Regarding the M3's, the manual has better gearing for the top end. The DCT is geared for the road course. When you spend more time in gear the difference is less pronounced. Pretty simple.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    You butt hurt cause no stock turbo n54 has ever out trapped me same day at the track? Facts are facts
    fixed

    different cars, but side by side, the advantage did not affect the outcome. the MT was not shifted slow enough for a dct to eek out a win a car that accellerates so equally to the other

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