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    Dual clutch transmission versus manual performance and gear shift time debate or some people are ignorant

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Cooling issues on the N54 platform put aside: 6MT<6AT<DCT on a roadcourse.

    What's it with people in the US mystifying driving stick? Because 90% of your cars come with autos it makes you special when you master the almighty stick? Click here to enlarge
    Been there, done that. I've driven manual cars for over 10 years. And I don't miss it one bit when I take my auto to the track and change gears at the push of my fingertip Click here to enlarge
    If you really believe that then I would bet my house I would out drive you in any car with a manual.....saying an auto is better than a manual on a road course is like saying all season tires are better then summer tires.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    If you really believe that then I would bet my house I would out drive you in any car with a manual.....saying an auto is better than a manual on a road course is like saying all season tires are better then summer tires.
    Oh, so why did F1 racing switch from manual transmissions to automatics and then semi-automatics? Sorry, but you can't beat the feeling of switching with the paddles on the steering wheels (just purchased some Verstrasse extended paddles as the orginal M3 DCT paddles are a bit smallish) vs a manual. I can keep both hands on the steering wheel all the time, focus on my lines, brake and downshift without needing to rev-match and heel-toe. Of course this will lead to lower laptimes.

    Technology advances and so do our cars. It's just a fact.

    You might indeed outdrive me, but it won't be due to your transmission Click here to enlarge

    Cheers.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    DCT is an auto, and thats the fastest mechanism ever invented.. Click here to enlarge
    That it is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    That it is.
    No, it isn't.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Oh, so why did F1 racing switch from manual transmissions to automatics and then semi-automatics? Sorry, but you can't beat the feeling of switching with the paddles on the steering wheels (just purchased some Verstrasse extended paddles as the orginal M3 DCT paddles are a bit smallish) vs a manual. I can keep both hands on the steering wheel all the time, focus on my lines, brake and downshift without needing to rev-match and heel-toe. Of course this will lead to lower laptimes.
    Very well said and exactly how it is. +1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Oh, so why did F1 racing switch from manual transmissions to automatics and then semi-automatics? Sorry, but you can't beat the feeling of switching with the paddles on the steering wheels (just purchased some Verstrasse extended paddles as the orginal M3 DCT paddles are a bit smallish) vs a manual. I can keep both hands on the steering wheel all the time, focus on my lines, brake and downshift without needing to rev-match and heel-toe. Of course this will lead to lower laptimes.

    Technology advances and so do our cars. It's just a fact.

    You might indeed outdrive me, but it won't be due to your transmission Click here to enlarge

    Cheers.
    I'm sorry didn't realize f1 transmissions have anything in common with the n54 automatic. If you can't brake and shift in a manual shift car the least of your concerns should be faster lap times as clearly you lack the coordination and skill.

    Put a bone stock 6m n54 vs an auto on any road course and the manual will win giving the driver is decent and drives both cars.

    Hell how many times did you hear the magazines $#@!ing about the m3 dct on a road course? We dont drive f1 cars and never will, so stop taking it to fantasy world and keep it real.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    I'm sorry didn't realize f1 transmissions have anything in common with the n54 automatic. If you can't brake and shift in a manual shift car the least of your concerns should be faster lap times as clearly you lack the coordination and skill.

    Put a bone stock 6m n54 vs an auto on any road course and the manual will win giving the driver is decent and drives both cars.

    Hell how many times did you hear the magazines $#@!ing about the m3 dct on a road course? We dont drive f1 cars and never will, so stop taking it to fantasy world and keep it real.
    Care to explain why? Because of the 3% less drivetrain loss? On a stock car that's 8whp...

    The only complaint I read about DCTs on the roadtrack is that they upshift automatically at redline, even in manual mode. But some manufacturers (Lotus in the new Exige IIRC) give the driver full control.

    What else is there to complain about? Modern DCTs shift so fast, you simply can't mechanically or physically match that in a manual. Even our relatively slow standard 6ATs are hard to be matched by a standard manual driver (see OPs vid, no pun intended).
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    Because you have full control over the gear box. It won't do something unexpected. As for dct, look up my vids against lost marine. He gained zero ground on shifts in a car that trapped faster and 60ed the same.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    The only complaint I read about DCTs on the roadtrack is that they upshift automatically at redline, even in manual mode.
    Never had it shift automatically for me in manual mode. Manual mode is manual, you can keep it on the limiter if you want to.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Because you have full control over the gear box. It won't do something unexpected. As for dct, look up my vids against lost marine. He gained zero ground on shifts in a car that trapped faster and 60ed the same.
    You actually think you can shift as fast as a DCT. That's cute.

    Great comparison of your car which is completely different to an M3 as somehow being valid. Why not take a look at dual clutch versus manual comparisons done with the same car? It isn't even a discussion, the difference is that large.

    And another thing, you take any great driver and put them in a car with sequential or dual clutch and they will beat the manual version every single time and be more consistent. Right, F1 drivers would be faster rowing gears lol.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Never had it shift automatically for me in manual mode. Manual mode is manual, you can keep it on the limiter if you want to.
    Well at redline it will eventually upshift. That's how it's programmed and you can't over-rev with the auto tranny.

    But I don't see how all this is a big issue if you're used to the car a bit. I usually try to upshift at latest at 6.500 rpm. With stock turbos there's no power to be found at the top, and it'll only generate extra heat.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Well at redline it will eventually upshift. That's how it's programmed and you can't over-rev with the auto tranny.
    You sure can overrev with it. I did it...

    Secondly, I've never had it automatically upshift with me. It's a DCT, not an auto. Hence why you can hit the limiter. The SMG would never upshift for me either in manual.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You actually think you can shift as fast as a DCT. That's cute.

    Great comparison of your car which is completely different to an M3 as somehow being valid. Why not take a look at dual clutch versus manual comparisons done with the same car? It isn't even a discussion, the difference is that large.

    And another thing, you take any great driver and put them in a car with sequential or dual clutch and they will beat the manual version every single time and be more consistent. Right, F1 drivers would be faster rowing gears lol.
    Never said i can outshift it, I simply said it can't out shift me. Ask steve or watch the videos again. We 60ed the same, had the same et, he had a higher trap. So if he is going faster, where the hell did I make up the ground?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Never said i can outshift it, I simply said it can't out shift me.
    Really. So, we throw a dual clutch in a 5.0 and it won't outshift you huh?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Ask steve or watch the videos again. We 60ed the same, had the same et, he had a higher trap. So if he is going faster, where the hell did I make up the ground?
    How in the world is a car with a different motor, different powerband, with different gearing, putting out different power, in a car with different weight, that is running a similar time somehow evidence of the transmission shift speed being equal?

    It is a physical impossibility for you to shift anywhere near a dual clutch. IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. A DCT will outshift you 100 times out of 100 times. There is no way around it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How in the world is a car with a different motor, different powerband, with different gearing, putting out different power, in a car with different weight, that is running a similar time somehow evidence of the transmission shift speed being equal?

    It is a physical impossibility for you to shift anywhere near a dual clutch. IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. A DCT will outshift you 100 times out of 100 times. There is no way around it.
    Some people simply don't get it Click here to enlarge

    DCTs in cars like the F458, Aventador shift in 50ms. That's 50 MILLI-seconds. But Laloosh will still outshift them... Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    DCTs in cars like the F458, Aventador shift in 50ms. That's 50 MILLI-seconds. But Laloosh will still outshift them...
    I think what he's saying is that the overall impact of that faster shift wasn't noticed in a race and while on paper it is faster that the advantage wasn't there, there and then.

    To add to this messy discussion, with NLS (wotbox) wired on my car I've shown logs on here with 60-70ms shifts so a 6MT can be very very fast in that respect but about 50ms is the fastest I can imagine I'll ever be able to pull off shifts with NLS in place. Plenty fast for me.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    I think what he's saying is that the overall impact of that faster shift wasn't noticed in a race and while on paper it is faster that the advantage wasn't there, there and then.
    It's impossible for it not to be there. He is comparing two different cars. It makes no sense.

    In the M5 the DCT is much quicker. In the 911 the dual clutch PDK is much quicker. I know he wants to feel good about his shifting and driving blah blah blah but a dual clutch in the same car would quite simply obliterate him. There is no debate: http://www.porscheboost.com/content....n-the-1-4-mile

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    To add to this messy discussion, with NLS (wotbox) wired on my car I've shown logs on here with 60-70ms shifts so a 6MT can be very very fast in that respect but about 50ms is the fastest I can imagine I'll ever be able to pull off shifts with NLS in place. Plenty fast for me.
    Nobody is doing 50 ms with a manual. Here is a list of shift times, your numbers are off: http://www.germanboost.com/showthrea...tch-manual-etc

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Really. So, we throw a dual clutch in a 5.0 and it won't outshift you huh?



    How in the world is a car with a different motor, different powerband, with different gearing, putting out different power, in a car with different weight, that is running a similar time somehow evidence of the transmission shift speed being equal?

    It is a physical impossibility for you to shift anywhere near a dual clutch. IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. A DCT will outshift you 100 times out of 100 times. There is no way around it.
    I simply said watch the video didnt I? Our shift points are actually identical. You can hear his tranny shift and see my car squat, ZERO ground was lost or made up.... If anything my car was heavier cause I am a bigger guy as both car weight in the 3600lb range plus driver.

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    Dual clutch transmission versus manual performance and gear shift time debate or some people are ignorant

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    I simply said watch the video didnt I? Our shift points are actually identical. You can hear his tranny shift and see my car squat, ZERO ground was lost or made up.... If anything my car was heavier cause I am a bigger guy as both car weight in the 3600lb range plus driver.
    His car weighs 3550 or so. You are in the 3600 range but yes the weights are similar.

    Did the thought cross your mind that he is keeping pace due to his trans? Do you really think your car would be slower with a dual clutch? Didn't you have some mods? Why are you ignoring all test data?

    The dual clutch is a significant advantage. You physically can't shift as fast. I don't know what else to tell you.

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    Smile Let's point and laugh at ThurmanZnq

    Welcome ThurmanZnq, take a look around, I think you will like what you see.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    His car weighs 3550 or so. You are in the 3600 range but yes the weights are similar.

    Did the thought cross your mind that he is keeping pace due to his trans? Do you really think your car would be slower with a dual clutch? Didn't you have some mods? Why are you ignoring all test data?

    The dual clutch is a significant advantage. You physically can't shift as fast. I don't know what else to tell you.
    So my car is 100lbs heavier, plus i'm 100 lbs heavier then steve, 200 lbs heavier total, with slower traps, but identical ET on the same 60. And yes, give me a 6mt m3, and line me up with an equally modded dct one and the dct will not win. But you don't believe me and that's ok.

    As for hte video, steve was modded, i had 400 miles on the car and it was bone stock. The second video where I went 12.4 was tune only, then I think theres another video where I went 12.1, but those are pointless to compare cause I am out trapping him and out ETing him bad.

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    2 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I'll start by stating the obvious, this comes down to preference...

    I chalk this all up as follows...

    1. Most people CANNOT shift a manual transmission well, much less race one or drive it aggressively. Its a skill and many don't want to or can't perfect
    2. Transmissions like the DCT, TipTronic or whatever else take away the part of your driving skill. Hence comments like the car is robotic in many reviews of cars with these types of transmissions.
    3. Comparing the F1 trans to a street trans is ludicrous to say the least.
    4. Most people are lazy so thats why they are more prevalent. In addition to that the shifts have gotten faster with the idea being to make it faster than a manual trans and allow more focus on driving the car.

    The bottom line here is really fuggin simple... Some of us @Sledgehammer @Laloosh @Blaizon (To name a few) can be fast no matter what trans is in the car as we have the skills to do so. Many of you (Fanboys, wannabe's, skill less twerps and so on LOL) will ONLY be fast with a paddle at your finger tips. Thats not skill thats situational and that puts drivers a a deficit, personally if you can't drive a stick and heel toe, rev match, power shift or do a clutch less shift then your skill sets are seriously limited. Thats a fact not an opinion.

    I ran @LostMarine in the Vette and my shifts and near imperceptible in the video's he posted. The DCT and like styled transmissions are certainly more consistent, not always faster and not to everyones liking. Folks keep getting hung up on the shift speed vs the enjoyment or skill needed to handle a car. Laloosh and I seem to subscribe to the simple concept of skill and enjoyment not just the outright speed.
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Glad you have the patience to type that up, great post for the paddle pushers who thing they are drivers.


    This is quick.

    This is quick
    Last edited by Laloosh; 08-01-2012 at 12:21 PM.

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    LOL, powershifting in combat boots FTW.

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