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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@AUTOCouture Click here to enlarge
    I don't support it one bit. There is ruling in there too that the govt has the right to view your own insurance policy and determine wether you need to drop it and sign up with their plan?


    With everyone on the govt back, we will end up just like Canada. Good luck waiting for that heart valve replacement when youre 65. You will be put on a waiting list and when your number is called you get to go in and get your operation.

    But what if they can't operate for 8 months? And at the rate you are going you will only last 3 months?
    Oh well, I'm sorry, better start calling your loved ones and tell them you will be 6ft under soon.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by scott_uw Click here to enlarge
    With all due respect, please let me know when this 'person' actually dies. I've heard enough anecdotal evidence in my life that Canadian healthcare is the terrible with people dying left and right to become numb to it. Medicine is given based on need, not want, in Canada. Being close to dying will put you at the front of the line always. If he exists and he's chosen for whatever reason to go with and wait for a biological valve instead of mechanical at his age(and condition from your post) I'm not sure what to say.

    For reference:
    Cardiac surgery wait times in Ontario: http://www.ccn.on.ca/ccn_public/uplo...e_May_2012.pdf
    Cardiac surgery wait times in ATL Canada: http://www.gov.ns.ca/health/waittime...e.asp?pid=1060
    My wait time for appendicitis(burst): 0 mins, straight to a hospital bed, straight to triage nurse then floor doctor with surgery sometime shortly after.
    My wait time for concussion/broken shoulder: 30-40 mins to a bed, instant xray, 35 addl mins waiting for MRI.

    The Canadian system isn't perfect but I'm sick and $#@!ing tired of hearing people with no actual experience with it hammering on and on about it because of either anecdotal evidence or your news provides such a balanced and non-lobbyist point of view of it.
    Average Life Expectancy by Country
    US is 38...all these countries (and pretty much all of Europe) with universal health care are above us, most by quite a bit. Canada is 10, heck Hong Kong beats us at #2.

    Overall health rating...hey look...at least we think we are awesome (graded ourselves "A")
    Click here to enlarge



    Healthcare Cost by Country (Insurance cost is the topic but as many countries use universal healthcare the phrasing has to be changed, see the first paragraph on the link)

    Per capita per year...

    US - $7,300
    UK - $3,000
    Canada - $3,800
    Japan - $2,900 (highest life expectancy btw, link)
    etc.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@AUTOCouture Click here to enlarge
    You know what really would help? Crushing all these unions that bleed this country dry with overinflated pensions.

    Thats one of the main reasons alone why NY state is so poor. Union pensions are so drastically overinflated that the state can't keep up with paying for them. That would drop the tolls on the bridges here, reduce taxes and make businesses more competitive for employees.

    Here, in case you didn't know, your pension is only averaged from the first and last 3 years at work. So you could do some good overtime when you first get hired, then sit on your ass for another 17 years, then work retarded amount of overtime to the point where your OT is almost equal to your standard salary, and then you retire. Suddenly your pension after only 20 years of work is more than your regular salary while you were at work!
    I think the big point there is the pensions in the first place. Ok some pension sure...but people use the fact they get a pension to be completely irresponsible through their whole lives. Put nothing away for retirement and blow it all on $#@! they can't afford, then expect to live of pensions and social security.
    Last edited by Forced Air; 07-03-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    Correct same with all the countries over there. People in the USA don't get it.
    You claim this based on what?

    I have been to the hospital in several European countries and never "greased" anybody....I didn't pay anything ever in fact.
    Never thought I would see the day...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Life is so much more fun with a nemesis. I miss Shiv. Click here to enlarge
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  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    You claim this based on what?

    I have been to the hospital in several European countries and never "greased" anybody....I didn't pay anything ever in fact.
    maybe the former soviet union *shrug*

  4. #79
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    Okay, I'll jump in with two personal horror stories about universal health coverage in Europe.

    1. About 5 years ago, my father in-law fell off his roof re shingling it. Yes he is old and stubborn, and had no business doing it, but alas he did anyway. So he falls off the roof. By the way, this is in Marki Poland, close to Warsaw. 3 hours later the ambulance arrives, traffic problems, not anyones fault so far. He gets to the hospital where they check him over quickly, good so far. A few timely x-rays and he has a broken hip and two broken ribs. They give him a hand full of pain killers and inform him there are NO beds available, and to come back in 2 days. Why were they booked solid, because everyone can, and does go to the hospital when they have a cold and stubbed toe.

    2. My cousin, living in Belarus. He falls while trying to ice skate. His story, that we to this day do not believe. Anyway, an ambulance is called to take him to an er room. Upon arrival, they find he also had a broken hip. All of his friends warn him about the hospital's government paid workers, and directed him to use a private doctor. He agrees and off he goes. The privately employed doctor fixes his broken hip. After 4 weeks, he can not walk and is in great pain still. He flys back to PA and sees his family doctor. Result, he is admitted ASAP into an ER and they have to break his hip again, as the first doctor $#@!ed up. 8 weeks later, he returns to Belarus, able to walk again.

    Yeah, I really want this type of quality care for my family.

  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    Average Life Expectancy by Country
    US is 38...all these countries (and pretty much all of Europe) with universal health care are above us, most by quite a bit. Canada is 10, heck Hong Kong beats us at #2.

    Overall health rating...hey look...at least we think we are awesome (graded ourselves "A")
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...d_tbl_SM-1.png
    Looks at the details of the scorecard though - the specific categories reflect lifestyle and dietary trends in each country. People in the US smoke, eat poorly, and don't exercise. Universal healthcare won't solve these issues; it will only be there to try and save people from themselves once it's time to suffer the consequences of their choices. I'm all in favor of taxing the hell out of cigarettes, soda and fast food to pay for programs to educate the public about how these habits are detrimental to their health. That would be an example of using taxes to encourage people to STOP a bad behavior that costs society, but still giving the individual the choice in the matter instead of a penalty for inaction.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    Healthcare Cost by Country (Insurance cost is the topic but as many countries use universal healthcare the phrasing has to be changed, see the first paragraph on the link)

    Per capita per year...

    US - $7,300
    UK - $3,000
    Canada - $3,800
    Japan - $2,900 (highest life expectancy btw, link)
    etc.
    So in the countries that have universal coverage, the average cost per user is less. To me that indicates that the quality is less as well. Simple cost/benefit analysis - you get what you pay for. That, or the subscribers tend to use their care less frequently due to quality/healthy lifestyles. See above.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    I think the big point there is the pensions in the first place. Ok some pension sure...but people use the fact they get a pension to be completely irresponsible through their whole lives. Put nothing away for retirement and blow it all on $#@! they can't afford, then expect to live of pensions and social security.
    100% accurate here. In fact, I don't expect to get any of my Soc. Sec. benefit when it comes time for me to retire. And I am saving on my own accordingly. It's too bad the general public can't grasp the idea of personal responsibility.
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  6. #81
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    You claim this based on what?

    I have been to the hospital in several European countries and never "greased" anybody....I didn't pay anything ever in fact.

    I'm referring to many things. Patriot Act, NDAA, and the drones coming to a neighborhood near you sooner or later(30,000 by 2018).
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  7. #82
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    Ok i want to move out the USA, I hear Iceland has hot $#@!es and the best saunas on earth. Anyone else in?
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Ok i want to move out the USA, I hear Iceland has hot $#@!es and the best saunas on earth. Anyone else in?
    I'm in. I want to roast some weenies over a volcano.
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  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    Looks at the details of the scorecard though - the specific categories reflect lifestyle and dietary trends in each country. People in the US smoke, eat poorly, and don't exercise. Universal healthcare won't solve these issues; it will only be there to try and save people from themselves once it's time to suffer the consequences of their choices. I'm all in favor of taxing the hell out of cigarettes, soda and fast food to pay for programs to educate the public about how these habits are detrimental to their health. That would be an example of using taxes to encourage people to STOP a bad behavior that costs society, but still giving the individual the choice in the matter instead of a penalty for inaction.


    So in the countries that have universal coverage, the average cost per user is less. To me that indicates that the quality is less as well. Simple cost/benefit analysis - you get what you pay for. That, or the subscribers tend to use their care less frequently due to quality/healthy lifestyles. See above.


    100% accurate here. In fact, I don't expect to get any of my Soc. Sec. benefit when it comes time for me to retire. And I am saving on my own accordingly. It's too bad the general public can't grasp the idea of personal responsibility.

    This.


    Bloomberg is passing a law here in NYC that restricts the size of large and supersize drinks. Limiting them to 16oz per cup.

    People are outraged over it, saying the mayor has no right to tell you want you can and cannot order in terms of size, but you know what, he makes a very good point. He is on the radio every friday morning on 710AM with Jon Gambling, and last friday his argument was 'the reason why we did this is because citizens tend to eat whatever is put in front of them, regardless of size. BUT, they will usually only do one serving. If you want 32oz of whatever soda or caffiene drink you want, that is fine, but they have to serve it to you in 2 cups. What studies have shown is that most people will think twice if they have to carry around two drinks, and only get one cup (most people do not ever finish their drink anyway, half goes in the trash). Less soda translates into less sugar and other chemicals, and in return will somewhat have an impact on weight gain, and in the long term hopefully reduce insurance costs due to possible diabetes or other ill effects due to obesity. This is one of the few arguements I will side on with Bloomberg, some of his other policies I do not agree on (enforcing no guns allowed in the 5 boroughs, and no concealed carry)

    The biggest issue and change really starts with the consumer. What both sides are afraid to tell us is that we are overspending our way into the ground. We as a society need to stop spending our asses off and saving so little..most have maybe enough money in the bank to last 3-4 weeks, and still more have nothing saved and live paycheck to paycheck...all it takes is a week or two without pay and you will never get out from underneath all the bills.

  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    The idea would be companies that don't have profits to stock holders as a priority.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Charity is non-profit currently and seems to have plenty of investment.

    My idea would be that the insurance company is capped at a certain amount of people with all finances displayed publicly. So it does not take on more than it can handle. Whatever the amount of money it takes to begin it can be either from outside investors (who get a % return of excess funds to encourage investment, but the company still is not for profit and this is still less than whatever it costs for ppl to pay monthly/quarterly whatever) or from actual individuals. You can pony up X amount to be in the program if you have X amount of finances which is returned to you if nothing happens. Essentially, it would be more difficult to get accepted but if you are in you have the potential to get all your money back. No doubt we would get complaints this would cater to the rich but I do not see why people don't understand they cater to the super ridiculously wealthy by paying insurance in the first place with how the companies clean up from funds from the entire population and do not return them.
    Fair points, both of you. Interestingly enough, all of my auto and home insurance is through State Farm, which is a policyholder owned company. I've received a few checks in the past when the company ran a huge surplus, although most of the time any small surplus results in a rate reduction for policyholders. This basically fits the model you are proposing.

  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    State Farm, which is a policyholder owned company.
    I didn't know this but this is on the right track and similar to what I proposed.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@AUTOCouture Click here to enlarge
    This.


    Bloomberg is passing a law here in NYC that restricts the size of large and supersize drinks. Limiting them to 16oz per cup.

    People are outraged over it, saying the mayor has no right to tell you want you can and cannot order in terms of size, but you know what, he makes a very good point. He is on the radio every friday morning on 710AM with Jon Gambling, and last friday his argument was 'the reason why we did this is because citizens tend to eat whatever is put in front of them, regardless of size. BUT, they will usually only do one serving. If you want 32oz of whatever soda or caffiene drink you want, that is fine, but they have to serve it to you in 2 cups. What studies have shown is that most people will think twice if they have to carry around two drinks, and only get one cup (most people do not ever finish their drink anyway, half goes in the trash). Less soda translates into less sugar and other chemicals, and in return will somewhat have an impact on weight gain, and in the long term hopefully reduce insurance costs due to possible diabetes or other ill effects due to obesity. This is one of the few arguements I will side on with Bloomberg, some of his other policies I do not agree on (enforcing no guns allowed in the 5 boroughs, and no concealed carry)

    The biggest issue and change really starts with the consumer. What both sides are afraid to tell us is that we are overspending our way into the ground. We as a society need to stop spending our asses off and saving so little..most have maybe enough money in the bank to last 3-4 weeks, and still more have nothing saved and live paycheck to paycheck...all it takes is a week or two without pay and you will never get out from underneath all the bills.
    The government should not have to dictate to ADULTS who are FREE in this country to eat any amount of food or drink they want. It is their decision to make. If I want a 64 oz soda, then I am willing to buy one from a supplier who meets me demand. I shouldnt have to be PENALIZED for paying tax twice on two separate beverages because bloomberg THINKS hes helping me by forcing me to buy two drinks instead of one so I wont get fat and cost taxpayers money to do my liposuction via the obamacare mandate. $#@! this $#@!, obamacare is for people who are at the bottom of the food chain, they pay 5% taxes because they make 20k a year and will have health coverage because of the 1% of the population that pay 35% taxes and populate the obamacare pool of health funds. The only people that benefit from this are the people making minimum wage for 15 years straight and are going to be spoonfed healthcare. That is not what america is about, in america if you made a $#@!ty decision in your life then you pay for it, if you make a good decision you reap the rewards, that is the opposite of communism and the beauty of our country.

    THIS IS A DOUBLE STANDARD, YOU CANT RUN THIS COUNTRY ON COMMUNISM. YOU CANT TELL FREE MEN WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT EAT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS NOW IN CONTROL OF YOUR HEALTH. YOU CANT FORCE ME TO EAT BROCOLLI AND CARROTS BECAUSE OBAMACARE MANDATES THAT, YOU CANNOT FORCE ME TO DO ANYTHING THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY AND I WANT 64 OZ OF PEPSI IN ONE SERVING GODAMMIT.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

  13. #88
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    The government should not have to dictate to ADULTS who are FREE in this country to eat any amount of food or drink they want. It is their decision to make. If I want a 64 oz soda, then I am willing to buy one from a supplier who meets me demand. I shouldnt have to be PENALIZED for paying tax twice on two separate beverages because bloomberg THINKS hes helping me by forcing me to buy two drinks instead of one so I wont get fat and cost taxpayers money to do my liposuction via the obamacare mandate. $#@! this $#@!, obamacare is for people who are at the bottom of the food chain, they pay 5% taxes because they make 20k a year and will have health coverage because of the 1% of the population that pay 35% taxes and populate the obamacare pool of health funds. The only people that benefit from this are the people making minimum wage for 15 years straight and are going to be spoonfed healthcare. That is not what america is about, in america if you made a $#@!ty decision in your life then you pay for it, if you make a good decision you reap the rewards, that is the opposite of communism and the beauty of our country.

    THIS IS A DOUBLE STANDARD, YOU CANT RUN THIS COUNTRY ON COMMUNISM. YOU CANT TELL FREE MEN WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT EAT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS NOW IN CONTROL OF YOUR HEALTH. YOU CANT FORCE ME TO EAT BROCOLLI AND CARROTS BECAUSE OBAMACARE MANDATES THAT, YOU CANNOT FORCE ME TO DO ANYTHING THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY AND I WANT 64 OZ OF PEPSI IN ONE SERVING GODAMMIT.

    hes not taxing you per cup, you get taxed once on whatever size you want, he just makes you take it in X amount of cups to make up for it. lol


    Oh AND Obamacare says if you make $250k or more per year, you actually pay less %-wise into Obamacare..if you make under 100k you actually have to pay more of your salary into it. I dont get that?

  14. #89
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    Glenn Beck also pointed out last year that Insurance companies make 4% profit total....whereas pepsi or coca-cola make 48-51% profit.

    Yet to the government the insurance companies are 'making a killing off innocent people, they shouldnt be allowed to run rampant'. What about soft drink beverage companies who make millions every year on sales, who target ads to young people which increases the likelihood of obesity? Why dont they have to 'be fair' and give up their share to make the average American richer?

    Its all just a scheme to portray the healthcare system as evil, the friendly government will step in to save the day, just like they tried to 'save the day' on their stupid Fast and Furious scheme to show why we shouldnt have the 2nd amendment.

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    insurance companies are making 4% profit after the tax deferred 401k's and retirement plans for the officers and frivilous write offs for company MOcedes benz's and jets , yachts and so on so i figure the realistic number is between 7-10% . so if you show me lets say "blue cross blue shield trading as WLP . stock price is 61.28 who are worth in stock value alone over 20 billion dollars and if they show a gross profit of 4 % on yearly sales of 61 billion dollars their profit is around 2.5 billion dollars .

    what you lose on % mark ups you make up in volume , Damn id take that 4% profit at those numbers any day !

    And yes Healthcare is evil ! Emblem health must die !!!!! they suck soo bad that a mispelled named from Sofia to Sophia triggers a claim denial.
    Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DAGREEKNYC Click here to enlarge
    insurance companies are making 4% profit after the tax deferred 401k's and retirement plans for the officers and frivilous write offs for company MOcedes benz's and jets , yachts and so on so i figure the realistic number is between 7-10% . so if you show me lets say "blue cross blue shield trading as WLP . stock price is 61.28 who are worth in stock value alone over 20 billion dollars and if they show a gross profit of 4 % on yearly sales of 61 billion dollars their profit is around 2.5 billion dollars .

    what you lose on % mark ups you make up in volume , Damn id take that 4% profit at those numbers any day !

    And yes Healthcare is evil ! Emblem health must die !!!!! they suck soo bad that a mispelled named from Sofia to Sophia triggers a claim denial.

    I never heard of Emblem health..what is that?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@AUTOCouture Click here to enlarge
    I never heard of Emblem health..what is that?
    Emblem health is one of the worst health insurances companies out there .
    Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@AUTOCouture Click here to enlarge
    Glenn Beck also pointed out last year that Insurance companies make 4% profit total....whereas pepsi or coca-cola make 48-51% profit.
    I'd be interested to see the actual stats that Beck cited. There is a big difference between insurance companies as a whole, and health insurance companies. Figure a year like 2005 where we had Katrina and several other hurricanes, and the companies took a huge loss due to the high number of claims paid out. I'd be surprised if that 4% applies strictly to healthcare.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@AUTOCouture Click here to enlarge
    Its all just a scheme to portray the healthcare system as evil, the friendly government will step in to save the day, just like they tried to 'save the day' on their stupid Fast and Furious scheme to show why we shouldnt have the 2nd amendment.
    Well, that's part of it. The real motivation here is votes and ensuring we never retreat from the 50% mark of people who are largely dependent upon government assistance. You could make the case that the slow economic recovery we are seeing is due in part to a reluctance on the part of the current admin to get people off the government teet.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    I'd be interested to see the actual stats that Beck cited. There is a big difference between insurance companies as a whole, and health insurance companies. Figure a year like 2005 where we had Katrina and several other hurricanes, and the companies took a huge loss due to the high number of claims paid out. I'd be surprised if that 4% applies strictly to healthcare.


    Well, that's part of it. The real motivation here is votes and ensuring we never retreat from the 50% mark of people who are largely dependent upon government assistance. You could make the case that the slow economic recovery we are seeing is due in part to a reluctance on the part of the current admin to get people off the government teet.

    Ill have to hunt for it, I remember seeing it on his afternoon show more than a year ago when Obamacare was first getting wind.

    Someone was saying I think on Savage last night or Hannity, that in CA their CalCare system is a mess. He lost his job right as his wife was having their baby. Insurance stepped up and paid part of it, but he had to go on other assistance programs just so he could get the bills paid. After 2 months he called them to say he wanted to get off the system cuse he got another job and he was able to make it on his own, and CalCare said no, you have to stay on it for another 6 months, and they tried to bribe him with welfare checks, foodstamps, or even make bogus claims to allow him to get free support.


    Getting on any kind of government program is easy...getting off is not.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    Looks at the details of the scorecard though - the specific categories reflect lifestyle and dietary trends in each country. People in the US smoke, eat poorly, and don't exercise. Universal healthcare won't solve these issues; it will only be there to try and save people from themselves once it's time to suffer the consequences of their choices. I'm all in favor of taxing the hell out of cigarettes, soda and fast food to pay for programs to educate the public about how these habits are detrimental to their health. That would be an example of using taxes to encourage people to STOP a bad behavior that costs society, but still giving the individual the choice in the matter instead of a penalty for inaction.


    So in the countries that have universal coverage, the average cost per user is less. To me that indicates that the quality is less as well. Simple cost/benefit analysis - you get what you pay for. That, or the subscribers tend to use their care less frequently due to quality/healthy lifestyles. See above.
    Or it is just more efficient and/or cost effective. Can't agree more with the first paragraph.
    Never thought I would see the day...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Life is so much more fun with a nemesis. I miss Shiv. Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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