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  1. #151
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Just please leave personal insults out of the discussion. You guys did the same thing to me (and maybe others) when I disagreed with you about one little thing on mbworld a while back. Then it kept getting worse until two of the moderators intervened. I respect your contribution to this site and all your feedback so lets please keep it clean and on-track.
    Well said, this is exactly it.

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  2. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    My friend's Ferrari put down 465 whp SAE and I believe 479 whp uncorrected.
    Do you have his graph by any chance? Nobody has seen one that high yet and it would be awesome to have it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    If this comment was directed at my number 6 comment in my previous post, then please note I made that comment in very strict context: only at those extremely high speeds. For example: a roll race from 280 km/h to 325 km/h.... obviously the Ferrari would be seen accelerating away from an SLS.
    It would likely be close but we would have to see it. Nobody is doing 280-325 rolls though.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    True, but cd is constant while aerodynamics play a much better roll the faster you go - more specifically at extremely high speeds.
    The cd factors into your statement though.

    Regarding the shif times, I don't know how there would be that large of a gap. I'll look into it more as it just feels off based on the technology. Sequentials have outshifted 100ms and even autos are hitting around that now I think.

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  3. #153
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    Controversy: Is the SLS AMG faster than the 458 Italia stock for stock?

    A debate has been raging on the BenzBoost forums and we decided it was finally time to put together information on these two cars to help sort out the video below. There are three races and the SLS gets the jump in the first two. In the first race the SLS is lined up ahead and gets on the gas first pulling. In the second video a mix-up in the honks has the SLS jump again leading the 458 to have to run it down which it can not. The third race is the cleanest with the SLS still pulling away and rather quickly.

    Click here to enlarge

    Now, this has led to people from each side yelling and screaming at each other. Here is what we know, the SLS dyno's more on a dynojet stock. There are variables involved of course but based on the graphs we have thus far the 458 baselines around 450 wheel and the SLS around 488 wheel. Advantage, SLS.

    458:
    Click here to enlarge

    SLS:
    Click here to enlarge


    So power favors the SLS but what about the weight? Well, Road and Track weighed the 458 Italia at 3490 pounds. The SLS AMG comes in at 3795 pounds. 300 pounds in favor of the 458 Italia although this is mitigated more from a roll than from a stop.

    This may help explain why the 458 Italia gets a better elapsed time in the 1/4 mile versus the SLS stock for stock. It's rear engine launch is also a large factor helping it get off the line better. Going back to Road and Track, the numbers are 11.0@128.5 versus 11.6@124.3 for the Italia and SLS respectively. 0-120 numbers favor the Italia by 1.2 second stock for stock, not a small difference.

    Shift speed has been stated to favor the 458 with the SLS at 100ms to its 40ms. This disparity seems too large for the same technology from the same supplier, Getrag. As a matter of fact, they are basically the same unit. So is there really that large of a disparity here? We don't think so.

    So how do you explain the outcome of the video? The only explanation is that the SLS is not stock. Logically, this is the only conclusion one can reach to explain how the SLS leaves the 458 the way it does. The weight is not as large of a factor once the cars are moving but even so we should see the 458 slowly pull not the SLS jumping out and destroying the 458. A stock SLS simply is not capable of it based on the data presented here. The stock claims are likely misleading and for SLS owners to boast. This is why we prefer track numbers for support but even without them a video can still be broken down. If we are incorrect, someone do this same race with two stock cars and prove us wrong. One thing is certain, both are fast cars and examples of some of the best vehicles available today.


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  4. #154
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Nice Artice!

    But if you contact "trakhose" on youtube. You will find out that the SLS is stock
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  5. #155
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Just please leave personal insults out of the discussion. You guys did the same thing to me (and maybe others) when I disagreed with you about one little thing on mbworld a while back. Then it kept getting worse until two of the moderators intervened. I respect your contribution to this site and all your feedback so lets please keep it clean and on-track.
    No problem Moe. My bro and I have alof of respect for you

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I actually lean towards your side of the argument a little bit (that the SLS would win from a roll) but I was just wondering why this maybe happening if the Ferrari seems to have the advantage. There's actually very good discussion in this thread if you remove all the clutter Click here to enlarge

    I would've loved to find a stock SLS close to my area so I could film a couple of close races but unfortunately my friend's car is now modified: tune + headers + minor exhaust modifications Click here to enlarge

    Lets see if you can film anything for us. We cant race our SLS with our 458, as our SLS is modded with one of the best mods around. Please talk to your friends moe, and see if you can get another video for us all. all my buddies in the UAE/Qatar with Ferrari 458's are all tuned.loool

    I can set up races with my bro's SLS and some other tuned 458's, but this is out of this discussion
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  6. #156
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    It could just be that the fuel quality in the country the video was taken is poor and affects the 458 more than the SLS.

  7. #157
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    hmmm... 458 is lighter, traps higher in the 1/4, aero advantage and somewhat of a gering advantage... i've heard stories ther are 130 mph + cars, i don't buy this video.

  8. #158
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    Thumbs up

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    No reason to leave.... you guys are big car enthusiasts just like most people here. I went back and positive repp'ed you guys to try and even things out a bit.

    Just please leave personal insults out of the discussion. You guys did the same thing to me (and maybe others) when I disagreed with you about one little thing on mbworld a while back. Then it kept getting worse until two of the moderators intervened. I respect your contribution to this site and all your feedback so lets please keep it clean and on-track.

    I actually lean towards your side of the argument a little bit (that the SLS would win from a roll) but I was just wondering why this maybe happening if the Ferrari seems to have the advantage. There's actually very good discussion in this thread if you remove all the clutter Click here to enlarge
    Moe

    I respect you man I would never attack a respectful person like you even if you disagree with me . I don't expect everyone to agree with what I say and that is totally fine as long as it is civil.

    It nice to see some discussions like this. What I'm talking about here is the exact experience that I had when my SLS was completely stock against a stock 458. I showed that the weight of both cars are as 1620Kg Curb Weigh (EU standard) and the Ferrari (about 1570 Kg EU Standard), so around 50 Kg difference (110 pounds). However Ferrari advertise their dry weight which is 1390Kg. Motortrend stated the Curb Weight of the Ferrari 458 in US standard which is around I think 1495Kg. The difference between curb weight of EU standard and US standard is that the EU standard includes 75 Kg driver while US standard does not. So that curb weight in MotorTrend of the Ferrari 458 would be around 1570Kg in EU standard.


    I only realized all of this weight standards after beating a stock Ferrari 458 with my SLS when it was stock. I even thought that the 458 would kill me and I was surprised that I beat it . That's why I went searching all about this and found out that the actual weight differnce is 50Kg and SLS has more wheel horsepower. Also if you see this same thread at Mbworld you will see a member who has an SLS and posted and said that he has beaten a stock Ferrari 458 with his stock SLS AMG.

  9. #159
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    A debate has been raging on the BenzBoost forums and we decided it was finally time to put together information on these two cars to help sort out the video below. There are three races and the SLS gets the jump in the first two. In the first race the SLS is lined up ahead and gets on the gas first pulling. In the second video a mix-up in the honks has the SLS jump again leading the 458 to have to run it down which it can not. The third race is the cleanest with the SLS still pulling away and rather quickly.

    Click here to enlarge

    Now, this has led to people from each side yelling and screaming at each other. Here is what we know, the SLS dyno's more on a dynojet stock. There are variables involved of course but based on the graphs we have thus far the 458 baselines around 450 wheel and the SLS around 488 wheel. Advantage, SLS.

    458:

    SLS:


    So power favors the SLS but what about the weight? Well, Road and Track weighed the 458 Italia at 3490 pounds. The SLS AMG comes in at 3795 pounds. 300 pounds in favor of the 458 Italia although this is mitigated more from a roll than from a stop.

    This may help explain why the 458 Italia gets a better elapsed time in the 1/4 mile versus the SLS stock for stock. It's rear engine launch is also a large factor helping it get off the line better. Going back to Road and Track, the numbers are 11.0@128.5 versus 11.6@124.3 for the Italia and SLS respectively. 0-120 numbers favor the Italia by 1.2 second stock for stock, not a small difference.

    Shift speed has been stated to favor the 458 with the SLS at 100ms to its 40ms. This disparity seems too large for the same technology from the same supplier, Getrag. As a matter of fact, they are basically the same unit. So is there really that large of a disparity here? We don't think so.

    So how do you explain the outcome of the video? The only explanation is that the SLS is not stock. Logically, this is the only conclusion one can reach to explain how the SLS leaves the 458 the way it does. The weight is not as large of a factor once the cars are moving but even so we should see the 458 slowly pull not the SLS jumping out and destroying the 458. A stock SLS simply is not capable of it based on the data presented here. The stock claims are likely misleading and for SLS owners to boast. This is why we prefer track numbers for support but even without them a video can still be broken down. If we are incorrect, someone do this same race with two stock cars and prove us wrong. One thing is certain, both are fast cars and examples of some of the best vehicles available today.


    Is this not a perfect example of total area under the curve? Since we aren't going to actually calculate, you can count the squares under each curve. Each square represents the exact same amount of "power" in each graph (x/y increase same in each)- you can easily see the advantage goes to the 458. It's not peak horsepower, it's average.

  10. #160
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
    Nice Artice!

    But if you contact "trakhose" on youtube. You will find out that the SLS is stock
    Thanks, It may be but then the Italia may have some kind of issue if it is losing that badly.

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  11. #161
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
    Moe

    I respect you man I would never attack a respectful person like you even if you disagree with me . I don't expect everyone to agree with what I say and that is totally fine as long as it is civil.

    It nice to see some discussions like this. What I'm talking about here is the exact experience that I had when my SLS was completely stock against a stock 458. I showed that the weight of both cars are as 1620Kg Curb Weigh (EU standard) and the Ferrari (about 1570 Kg EU Standard), so around 50 Kg difference (110 pounds). However Ferrari advertise their dry weight which is 1390Kg. Motortrend stated the Curb Weight of the Ferrari 458 in US standard which is around I think 1495Kg. The difference between curb weight of EU standard and US standard is that the EU standard includes 75 Kg driver while US standard does not. So that curb weight in MotorTrend of the Ferrari 458 would be around 1570Kg in EU standard.


    I only realized all of this weight standards after beating a stock Ferrari 458 with my SLS when it was stock. I even thought that the 458 would kill me and I was surprised that I beat it . That's why I went searching all about this and found out that the actual weight differnce is 50Kg and SLS has more wheel horsepower. Also if you see this same thread at Mbworld you will see a member who has an SLS and posted and said that he has beaten a stock Ferrari 458 with his stock SLS AMG.
    I'm trying to find someone with a an SLS and 458 willing to run but it is not easy. I think a new vid would really put an end to all this and be helpful.

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  12. #162
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm trying to find someone with a an SLS and 458 willing to run but it is not easy. I think a new vid would really put an end to all this and be helpful.
    Find someone with and SLS and I'll get a 458

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Do you have his graph by any chance? Nobody has seen one that high yet and it would be awesome to have it.
    Ask and you shall receive.... Click here to enlarge I finally got a chance to get in touch with my friend with the Ferrari 458 (he's out of state on business right now). He said his car dynos differently on different dynos (as expected) but more interestingly, he said the more he ran it, the better it got. The lowest it ever dynoed was 457 whp and the highest was 478 whp. Here is a crude cell phone picture I took while we were at the dyno shop a year ago.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It would likely be close but we would have to see it. Nobody is doing 280-325 rolls though.
    Not if the speeds we're targeting are higher than one of the car's top speed.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Regarding the shif times, I don't know how there would be that large of a gap. I'll look into it more as it just feels off based on the technology. Sequentials have outshifted 100ms and even autos are hitting around that now I think.
    As you can see, the 100 ms shift time comes directly from the Mercedes-AMG site. Regular auto trans (speaking about Mercedes ones) are not that fast yet. I think I read one time that they were close to 200 ms (I'll have to double-check to confirm though).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
    No problem Moe. My bro and I have alof of respect for you
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
    Moe
    I respect you man I would never attack a respectful person like you even if you disagree with me . I don't expect everyone to agree with what I say and that is totally fine as long as it is civil.
    Thanks guys, the feeling is mutual.... Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
    Lets see if you can film anything for us. We cant race our SLS with our 458, as our SLS is modded with one of the best mods around. Please talk to your friends moe, and see if you can get another video for us all. all my buddies in the UAE/Qatar with Ferrari 458's are all tuned.loool
    Unfortunately my friend's Ferrari now has headers + tune + exhaust work. But in the winter time, I usually organize a couple of track events, and I know at least 2 Ferrari 458 Italia's that are still stock. They would be happy to make a video but I do NOT know anyone with a stock SLS. If I can find someone in our next track event, I will definitely film it Click here to enlarge
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    Some 0-60 mph runs and 60-130 mph runs

    .
    Sticky, here are some VBox runs from the 458 Italia. It has a bunch of 0 to 60 mph and 60 to 130 mph runs. I don't have the software, so please post them when you get a chance.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    .
    Sticky, here are some VBox runs from the 458 Italia. It has a bunch of 0 to 60 mph and 60 to 130 mph runs. I don't have the software, so please post them when you get a chance.
    Was busy over the weekend obviously, I will get to this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Thanks guys, the feeling is mutual.... Click here to enlarge



    Unfortunately my friend's Ferrari now has headers + tune + exhaust work. But in the winter time, I usually organize a couple of track events, and I know at least 2 Ferrari 458 Italia's that are still stock. They would be happy to make a video but I do NOT know anyone with a stock SLS. If I can find someone in our next track event, I will definitely film it Click here to enlarge
    Did he get any runs with this headers, tune, and exhaust? He has the baseline so if it was me I would be itching to see the difference!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Ask and you shall receive.... Click here to enlarge I finally got a chance to get in touch with my friend with the Ferrari 458 (he's out of state on business right now). He said his car dynos differently on different dynos (as expected) but more interestingly, he said the more he ran it, the better it got. The lowest it ever dynoed was 457 whp and the highest was 478 whp. Here is a crude cell phone picture I took while we were at the dyno shop a year ago.




    Not if the speeds we're targeting are higher than one of the car's top speed.



    As you can see, the 100 ms shift time comes directly from the Mercedes-AMG site. Regular auto trans (speaking about Mercedes ones) are not that fast yet. I think I read one time that they were close to 200 ms (I'll have to double-check to confirm though).
    Good stuff Mo, the highest I have ever seen is that 478 you just posted.

    The trans is a Getrag unit that is the same as the Ferrari. It just doesn't make sense to me that Mercedes would slow it down. I think it is a difference in how shift times are being measure or something of that sort as the hardware is capable of the exact same things. Considering Mercedes made a point about mentioning their software was more aggressive than what was seen in the California (also the same unit) why would they slow it down to 100ms when the California shifts faster than 100ms? See the inconsistency? It just doesn't make sense. I really don't think there is as large of a gap if any as what you are saying.

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    They should have raced from 0.
    Surprised to see how quick the SLS is

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    This would be more believable if the results were closer, but it's not. That SLS literally slingshots ahead. The race should be much closer. This pill is too big for anyone with common knowledge of these cars to swallow. It is not stock and is prob running race gas. We need to see a real stock face off here.

    Next thread, SLS crushes F12, LOL.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NatAsp-M3 Click here to enlarge
    Next thread, SLS crushes F12, LOL.
    Maybe even Enzo's successor. Click here to enlarge

    BTW i forgot which 360 you got. Modena or Challenge Stradale?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Maybe even Enzo's successor. Click here to enlarge

    BTW i forgot which 360 you got. Modena or Challenge Stradale?
    The Stradale. The newer generations are so much faster and more refined, but I love the raw go-cart feeling of the Stradale.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NatAsp-M3 Click here to enlarge
    The Stradale. The newer generations are so much faster and more refined, but I love the raw go-cart feeling of the Stradale.
    Definitely. Also the sound it makes is just insane.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Good stuff Mo, the highest I have ever seen is that 478 you just posted.

    The trans is a Getrag unit that is the same as the Ferrari. It just doesn't make sense to me that Mercedes would slow it down. I think it is a difference in how shift times are being measure or something of that sort as the hardware is capable of the exact same things. Considering Mercedes made a point about mentioning their software was more aggressive than what was seen in the California (also the same unit) why would they slow it down to 100ms when the California shifts faster than 100ms? See the inconsistency? It just doesn't make sense. I really don't think there is as large of a gap if any as what you are saying.
    I'm not so sure the tranny is identical to the one in the 458 Italia. Judging solely by my feel of the two cars, more specifically after driving the SLS intensely on Laguna Seca road course at the AMG driving academy, and after been driven in the Ferrari 458 Italia more than a few times, the shifting and responsiveness of the 458 transmission felt very decisively faster than that of the SLS. I understand that it could've been an illusion because the Ferrari is a smaller car and feels lighter, but my gut feeling tells me that the tranny in the 458 is way faster.

    Does anyone know if any of the accelerometers are able to measure shift speed? That would be a fun test to try out...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I'm not so sure the tranny is identical to the one in the 458 Italia.
    Based on what? It seems to be the same Getrag model from everything I have read.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    the shifting and responsiveness of the 458 transmission felt very decisively faster than that of the SLS.
    It's shifting a different powerband at a different RPM. Also, the location of the gearbox is in a different area. It should feel different even if it is the same unit just like the 335 DCT feels different than the M3 despite being the same box.

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