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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    4-8 ms... good luck topping that Click here to enlarge
    That's what I've heard, but I've been trying to get any type of official documentation or links on that and have not been able to.... do you have any links from BMW you can post here?
    2007 E63 P30
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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    That's what I've heard, but I've been trying to get any type of official documentation or links on that and have not been able to.... do you have any links from BMW you can post here?
    I don't have anything official from BMW, just this:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    Now, here is actual documentation to support shift speeds and the reason why a dual clutch transmission simply can not be approached by an automatic or manual.


    A dual clutch transmission is essentially two manual transmissions in one housing. One gear set is responsible for odd gears and one gear set is responsible for even gears. The next gear is essentially already preselected. When one gear set is disengaged, the other is already in gear and it is basically an instantaneous shift with no perceivable interruption. It happens forty times faster than the blink of an eye.


    The VW group has their DSG numbers published and they are 8 milliseconds. Basically, a human being can not even perceive the gear change.


    The fastest automatic in the world is the Lexus IS-F gearbox, at 100 ms. The ZF transmission in BMW's is at the 200 ms mark.


    Unfortunately, a person with extreme bias posted numbers without realizing what they were posting or willing to admit reality, skewing numbers to misrepresent the facts due to personal issues.


    Well, here are the numbers with support.


    A long shift time is considered anything over 625 ms


    The average manual car driver: 500 ms - 1 s
    Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms
    Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
    BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 220 ms
    Ferrari 360: 150 ms
    Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms
    Lexus LFA: 150 ms
    Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms
    Nissan GT-R: 100ms
    BMW M3 E46 with SMG II: 80 ms
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms
    Volkswagen Golf GTI (Direct Shift): 8 ms
    Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms
    All Volkswagen DSG Gearbox (Direct Shift): 8 ms


    The source for shift times as well as DSG information is here if one is interested: http://paultan.org/2006/06/26/vw-pha...s-way-for-dsg/


    BMW has not posted official shift times for the DCT unfortunately. Why not? Getrag just hasn't released the info officially but 4 ms has been posted as a "leak" on BMW sites.


    The Nissan GTR time is stated odd and I believe it is simply due to how Nissan explains it cutting the shift time in R mode vs. regular mode. The GR6 Borg Warner tranny is not shifting slower than sequential manuals, just does not make sense. Maybe it is 100 ms though, but that would just be odd.


    Just how big of a difference does the DCT make? Even vs. the best auto transmission in the world for shift speed, it will be picking up a conservative tenth per shift. What about vs. a manual? Well, here is a professional driver in a manual car vs. the same car in DSG, see for yourself:





    So, hopefully this explains some things for people. All transmissions have their strengths and weaknesses, however, for flat out the fastest shift speeds available today, dual clutch transmissions do not have an equal and are simply on their own level.
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  3. #28
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    The 13k for the ceramic brake kit might stop 2 ft shorter but it's 50% lighter in rotating mass.

    Btw
    Smg2. Is 100ms
    smg3. Is 80ms
    MCT in M 100ms

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mthis Click here to enlarge
    The 13k for the ceramic brake kit might stop 2 ft shorter but it's 50% lighter in rotating mass.

    Btw
    Smg2. Is 100ms
    smg3. Is 80ms
    MCT in M 100ms
    Yep, lighter and less fade.
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mthis Click here to enlarge
    Btw
    Smg2. Is 100ms
    smg3. Is 80ms
    MCT in M 100ms
    SMG3 revision 2 was actually up to 60 ms but it was only available on the lighter cars. Either way, SMG is over 5 years old and it's slowest speed matched the newest Mercedes technology available today in similar cars. If the new DCT transmission by BMW can indeed shift at 4 to 8 ms (even 10 ms), then it would be more than 10 times faster than anything Mercedes has right now. I can understand 20% faster or 30% faster between competitors, but 10 times faster is definitely more than enough reason to call the Mercedes transmission slow - especially by many of those magazine testers.
    2007 E63 P30
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't have anything official from BMW, just this:
    4 to 8 ms seems way too fast.... we can't always count on "unofficial" leaks, so I'm going to wait until we get solid official release. How long has the BMW DCT been out? Hasn't it been a year already? I would think all information would be available by now Click here to enlarge
    2007 E63 P30
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  7. #32
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I highly doubt it's 4 ms to be honest, The latest F1 cars can shift in 5 ms and they have by far the most advanced transmissions on earth regardless of the number of clutches.

    Click here to enlarge

    The tested E63 weighs 4279 lbs
    Last edited by Sorena; 04-21-2012 at 04:25 AM.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    4 to 8 ms seems way too fast.... we can't always count on "unofficial" leaks, so I'm going to wait until we get solid official release. How long has the BMW DCT been out? Hasn't it been a year already? I would think all information would be available by now Click here to enlarge
    You can probably get the specs from Getrag. 8ms is official from VW btw.
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    The latest F1 cars can shift in 5 ms and they have by far the most advanced transmissions on earth regardless of the number of clutches.
    Um, the number of clutches definitely matter.

    Yes, 5ms is super fast. It's going to be very tough to see much more improvement in shift speed.
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You can probably get the specs from Getrag. 8ms is official from VW btw.
    Yeah I know about the transmission in the Bugatti being 8 ms but not sure about the BMW yet. I will check their site again and Getrag to see if they posted anything official. But as I mentioned before, even if BMW's DCT shifts at 10 ms, it would be 10 times faster than Mercedes' comparable transmission. The gap should not be this big, should it? Click here to enlarge
    2007 E63 P30
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  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    The gap should not be this big, should it?
    Well, MB is sticking with autos still. I don't think this gap should exist but that is because I think Mercedes should offer the option. Odd that only the SLS has it...
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