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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whipplem104 Click here to enlarge
    All things being equal. The car with the most torque will pull on the high end also. If torque is higher in the rpms the car is being run at. As the vehicle speed increases the work or force to move that car increases. Rolling resistance and wind drag. If two cars have the same gearing and hp curves and one is making more torque in the usable window of operation then it will be faster in those conditions.
    I do tuning on a rally car with a restrictor. It is a turbo audi aan engine. I am constantly yelling at the owner driver to shift early. He wants to wind it up. It makes 322lb/ft of torque at 3500rpm. At 5250 it makes 240. Hp peaks at 245 at 4700. The thing pulls like a freight train between 3000-5-5500 rpm. So it is not that simple when you add things like different transmissions and power curves. But I would probably run a e55 lower in the rpm range than the c63 in any conditions.
    You are talking about torque multiplication and that is producing horsepower which is what is winning the race. That is why the S2k at 9000 rpm works the way it does...

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    ahh even more interesting!

    I tried a 1993 Lola/Chevy Indy Car, 720bhp/365lb-ft.

    Stock: 4.4 seconds
    +50tq: 5.0 seconds!

    So the pattern here seems that the power curves that favor the high RPM range (McLaren F1, Indy car), or at least have a large hp/torque differential, benefit less from a modest improvement in torque - all other factors being equal. In the case of the 12,200RPM redline Indy car it actually had a negative impact.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ls1carguy Click here to enlarge
    I used my favorite bench racing tool to test this theory. I chose a 1998 Camaro Z28 5.7L V8 as the model, 305bhp/335lb-ft.

    Stock 40-100mph: 11.2 seconds

    305bhp/385lb-ft (+50tq): 10.8 seconds


    So that was interesting.

    I tried next with a 1994 McLaren F1, 618bhp/479lb-ft.

    Stock: 4.9 seconds
    +50lb-ft: 4.9 seconds

    ??!!

    1994 Toyota Supra Turbo, 320bhp/315lb-ft.

    Stock: 10.1
    +50tq: 9.8

    1986 MB 190E 2.3-16, 167bhp/162lb-ft

    Stock: 18.9
    +50tq: 18.3

    So there's definitely a trend of just 50lb-ft reducing roll times.
    Horsepower and torque are a function of each other. The thing is, in a top end race you want horses. If you increase torque somewhere in the rev range, you increase horsepower. However, if torque remains the same and you increase revs, you increase horsepower. HP wins...

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonsC63AMG Click here to enlarge
    But the diesel has $#@! for hp. The argument here is when hp is not so far off.
    That's a cop out Jon.

    You just can't use absolute terms about torque in this discussion due to so many variables.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Ok I am patently incorrect about the high rpm/high redline situation. I re-ran the tests with the Indy car and noticed it was shifting well below redline. It was calculating "best" shift points and employing those in the testing. I changed the program parameters to always shift at redline, and the Indy car ran 4.6/4.4 which -does- show an improvement like the others.

    Operator error!

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Thread jack with a stupid question which i have had in my mind since Jesus's birth:

    Which wins races? Horsepower or Torque?

    Jon. Regardless of actual outcome.
    2004 E500 - Eurocharged ECU, VRP headers and E55 exhaust. #1 record holder on dragtimes (13.49@102.5)
    2005 SL600 - OE Tuning ECU/ Speedriven TCU - #1 record holder on dragtimes (11.02@126)

    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqKECRhvlf4

    Powered by:Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Benz-O-Rama Click here to enlarge
    Jon. Regardless of actual outcome.
    Classic.

    Click here to enlarge

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Thread jack with a stupid question which i have had in my mind since Jesus's birth:

    Which wins races? Horsepower or Torque?
    Torque is fun, but aerodynamics, downforce, suspension, and tires win races. Unless we're talking about straight line highway pulls from a roll, where none of that $#@! actually matters.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Horsepower and gearing wins races, because if torque did, semi trailers would be spanking F1 cars because they have more torque per lbs.

    What is a race?

    A race is to see who can get to the finish line first or in an allotted amount OF TIME.

    Time is only taken into account with horsepower, torque is not a transient affect, horsepower is.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by oldgixxer Click here to enlarge
    I ran the same E55 your friend Albert ran w his W212 63,we were dead even from a 40 roll til we each hit the rev limiter. The W212 aren't as quick as the W211 E63
    Albert did have a w211 e63 it was slower way up top compare to his w212 e63. I know this because I ran him many times.Click here to enlarge
    C63 Tuned Only 60-130 in 8.71

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Rob, remember when all the E55 guys said the 63's would never compete with them LOL? I believe they called the 63's junk LOL.
    Lol. Its a good thing the 63s have close gears.
    C63 Tuned Only 60-130 in 8.71

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That's a cop out Jon.

    You just can't use absolute terms about torque in this discussion due to so many variables.
    Yes there are many variables-lbs,gearing,etc.
    C63 Tuned Only 60-130 in 8.71

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