Thread: Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990
12-03-2011, 11:08 PM #51
12-03-2011, 11:10 PM #52
12-03-2011, 11:13 PM #53
12-03-2011, 11:14 PM #54
I think we saw from your results that a tuned standard car and a P31 are close so stating one can expect the same peak for both makes sense. The P31 is definitely aggressive for a factory tune.
Also, your gain was on a different dyno as well, different tuner, and you had adaptability issues from what I understand. Your 30-40 whp didn't show up because it didn't stay there. So it is not valid to say 40 whp did not show at the track as if the ECU did not adapt it would have. There is no way for 40 whp to not show in a trap speed.
12-03-2011, 11:17 PM #55
40 whp is not something that won't show up as that is almost 4 MPH.
Sorry, but I've likely had many more passes than you at a much younger age since I have been doing this since I was 17. I think you may lack some experience as everyone should know the relation between horsepower and trap as well as the rules of thumb in drag racing. That is why you can extrapolate horsepower from your trap.
Please show me an example of your car gaining 40 whp and it not showing in the trap speed, I'd love to see it.
Perhaps you should look at my post above to see why DD GT3 RD is a different situation not to mention not a car running or ever having ran this tune.
12-03-2011, 11:20 PM #56
12-03-2011, 11:27 PM #57
12-03-2011, 11:33 PM #58
Just one simple example how the dyno numbers mean crap if your car is not dialed in for them. Real world adds real problems.
12-03-2011, 11:36 PM #59
There is no revolution I'm talking about. Trust me, I asked Weistec about this. They are doing things other tuners aren't. What is premature is forming your conclusion without all the necessary information. Rather than *thinking* you know why don't you do what I did and contact them directly? They are not approaching this in the exact same manner as other tuners and once again have clearly demonstrated an incredible grasp of the M156 that others have yet to match as far tuning complexity.
Just earlier you said the peak HP was not out of line at all compared to your own results, interesting. I hope we don't see more flip flopping.
12-03-2011, 11:44 PM #60
I'm a kid? I'm a 28 year old adult last time I checked who definitely has spent far more time reading about, researching, and applying this topic than you have over literally the past decade on more forums than I care to count. You may be surprised but there are many things I could teach you and perhaps you should listen from time to time. Your age bares no correlation to your knowledge as time spent applying and researching it are far more important factors. I have seen more than enough to come to an educated conclusion as to what you know, show me the 40 whp not showing up in a slip, please.
12-03-2011, 11:44 PM #61
12-03-2011, 11:49 PM #62
That is fine if you don't care about dyno numbers but I certainly do as do others. There are many factors and you can't exactly see an HP and torque curve on a slip. I like real world numbers as well which is likely why I launched my car at the strip as much as I did but I certainly don't dismiss one factor in favor of another as that is ignorant.
12-04-2011, 12:01 AM #63
12-04-2011, 12:03 AM #64
12-04-2011, 12:08 AM #65
12-04-2011, 12:10 AM #66
In some cases however I did see gains in whp on the dyno and no gain on the track. Maybe due to a fluke dyno runs or maybe the conditions on the dyno were more favorable than they were on the track. In many cases my ET's would be worse due to the more power and more wheel spin but my traps would be higher as you stated. In most of those cases the suspension or tire configuration needed to be changed.
Ive also seen power on the dyno and have never seen anything change at the track. Not big power as your stating but 10 whp has shown nothing on my slips at times.
12-04-2011, 12:19 AM #67
12-04-2011, 12:27 AM #68
Your example is a mechanical failure affecting performance of a car. Uh, ya, and a flat tire will change your results too.
If you gain HP it will translate to the track. The track works much like a dyno does so having both numbers is of course preferable to see if they correlate.
10 whp has shown nothing on your slips? Same conditions and same everything? Because 10 whp sure shows up on an E46 M3, 330i, E92 M3, and every car I have ever had. There is no such thing as limp horses, either they are there or they aren't. If you truly added them, they will show.
12-04-2011, 12:31 AM #69
There is no reason to not try this tune out. Go for it, who is stopping you?
There is no problem with you on this side of the computer, I do not know why you assume otherwise.
12-04-2011, 12:42 AM #70
This thread is hilarious
FWIW, my experience with Weistec has been that they are VERY conservative when the quote me anything related to power gains. During my build with them throughout the various stages they had quoted me a "goal" hp figure and ALWAYS exceeded that goal figure. They are a different type of tuner and they don't over hype their product with a bunch of bull$#@! claims. I promise you if they are claiming this tune make 47 hp, its making all of 47 hp.
Go back and search every post ever put made by Weistec, you will not find a singe chect pounding or bold claim in any of their posts. They are the most conservative and realist tuners I have ever worked with. They have never once "told me what I want to hear" just to get me to cut a check for a product. Their product speaks for itself and as soon as a few of these tunes hit the street and track you guys will see what they can do.
As for the basline number of 394 it does look a little low but then again the dyno they use has always read a little low IMO. My BS baseline dynoed at 411 on a dynojet with the prefilters removed at a shop near my home in Chicago a week later my car was shipped to evosprt and run on their dynojet and it made either 417 or 419 (I can't remember exact its been a while). That being said a gain is a gain and even if this tune only makes 35 its the least expensive power that you're going to find, but if they are claiming 47 hp I would bet its making 47 hp.
Put a call into Steve or Mike or one of the guys at Weistec and talk to them for 10 minutes and you will instantly realize their coonservative mindset. Keep in mind Weistec has tuned Earl and my car to over 660rwhp without breaking anything or blowing anything up. There are other tuners that have blown these thingss up while doing a simple intake and exhaust tune. They know what they're doing and they can back up their words.
1000+WHP WEISTEC 2008 CLK63 Black Series
790WHP WEISTEC 2012 C63 Black Series
725WHP WEISTEC 2014 SLS Black Series
12-04-2011, 02:07 AM #71Member
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It's very simple to verify this.
You guys are missing that they are doing things differently from other tuners. Hold them to their own standard.
Could it be that Wesitec simply knows more and can tune better than anyone else ?
12-04-2011, 02:22 AM #72
Regarding being objective, yes, that is a separate and definitely important issue. That is why open debate is preferred as whether one believes another has bias or not challenging those assumptions should lead to the truth.
There is no doubt the stock tune is a work of art as is the entire car. I'm not debating those engineers skill. But they have other parameters to worry about other than max performance. They have to take emissions, fuel efficiency, decibel value, etc., into account.
Aftermarket tunes vary across the spectrum because of all the different approaches so naturally a single tune compared to multiple tunes will have a varied spectrum. You take a single aggressive, custom tune on a specific type of fuel vs. the stock tune and the custom dyno tune should be more consistent or else it isn't a good tune.
12-04-2011, 05:31 AM #73
2007 E63 P30
12-04-2011, 05:39 AM #74
Sometimes the gains don't translate right away to the track. That's why it is important to pick a tuner that knows what they're doing.2007 E63 P30
12-04-2011, 06:03 AM #75
As I stated earlier, % loss "standards" come from dynojets usually. Different dynojets will read differently and there are different models of dynojets as well. Comparing on the exact same dyno makes more sense.
Once again, you are just mentioning RWHP as an absolute and I'm asking you which correction standard was used for these 410+ runs. SAE? DIN? Uncorrected? etc.
You are assuming something is wrong with a car that baselines 395. This assumption is based on nothing other than a standard you created in your head. There is no % loss that has to be matched to the wheels. Engine dyno's are used by the manufacturers anyway.
Don't you think Weistec when tuning the ECU on this car would have seen whether it was healthy or not?
Why have other E63's on dynojets dyno'd less?
What is important is the change from the baseline to the tune.
You simply are assuming the car was not healthy which is absolutely not fair especially when you continue to compare it against the highest figures and not even an average which would be much more accurate.
You haven't even asked how many miles this car had, that would be one of my first questions.
I find it odd you continue to assume this car was unhealthy based on an assumption you are passing off as a proven fact. You could also try asking Weistec or talking to the owner...
It should be understood that you can't just add 47 whp to any and every M156. I mean come on Mo, I don't expect ricer math from you.
We would have to see what would happen with a car that baselines higher. Perhaps this dynojet reads lower than others. I do not think it is fair for you to negatively assume there is something wrong with this vehicle based on hand picked numbers by you.
This is also 91 octane. How many 93 octane numbers are you using for your 410-420 argument? Also, how many of those dyno's were guys trying to prove how strong their motor is? How many of them pulled filters or filled up with race gas to try to act like the M156 was not giving up anything to the M113k? I remember how the early days were with the transition and guys throwing dyno numbers around and beating their chests. This car did what it did on this dyno. It is reckless to go around calling it unhealthy based on arbitrarily hand picked figures by yourself with 0 proof anything was wrong with this vehicle and no statement from the tune or owner saying anything was out of order.
It definitely is correct to state one can not expect to gain 47 whp if they baseline 425 whp for some reason. The compression ratio with 91 octane will ultimately be the limiting factor and timing on all M156's will only be pushed so far before detonation is an issue and this is why peak numbers should all sync for the most part. Weistec is doing something different then others though, that is all I can really say.
Weistec has shown a conservative approach thus far, let's see what more results bring. This is promising and positive for those with M156's including yourself.