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  1. #51
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    I think another question that should be asked is this - What would you guys think if you found out that Renntech was doing this ? Clearly they don't and have the ability to embed their encryption in the file itself. Yet, we all know that anyone with the skill and proper tools can crack the Renntech file which is considered the one of the best in the business, right ?
    So why go to such extremes to keep others from seeing what is on MHP tuned ECU's ? And if their tune is so good, then why can't they encrypt it electronically ?? Perhaps the answer is simple and the MHP tune really isn't that different than any other tune out there...or, maybe they don't want people seeing the tune and finding out that it doesn't really control all the parameters that MHP says it does. I don't know, but I think those are valid questions given the lengths that we see this particular tuner is willing to take to hide their files.

    Lastly - who's ECU is this ? Jim, is it yours ?? If so, I'd like to see pictures of the board after it was saved by the CNC machine. And I also agree with others here...The title of this thread is misleading if in fact the ECU was not ruined and was able to be salvaged. But still, having to use a CNC machine to clear away all that epoxy is still pretty hard to swallow for me and I'd be pissed off even if the ECU was still fine.
    Last edited by LZH; 10-18-2011 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Some very good points and counter points being made here and I tend to agree with all of them.

    I think what is being said at this point is that Andy previously admitted that he does this to the ECU's he tunes - even showed a picture of it...but the pic he showed didn't show the the true amount of epoxy and the haphazard manner in which it was applied. Looking at the first few pics in this thread, you can clearly see the mound of epoxy is covering up other components on the board. I'd be pissed about that. I don't give a $#@! if the tuner says that he has the tools and solvents to safely remove it, I wouldn't want it there in the first place nor would I ever agree to it if I was told beforehand that this was their GHETTO way of encryption. And Furthermore, I guarantee you if a dealer saw this they would void the owners warranty citing a severely damaged and tampered with ECU - or, they would refuse to do any work on the vehicle until the owner purchased a new ECU.

    So many of you take such pride in your AMG's and nit pick every single little thing about them - I'd be willing to be that these same people would be very surprised to know that tucked away under their hood was an ECU that had some gigantic glob of epoxy covering it. One could argue that it's not harming the functioning of the ECU, but could you also say with absolute certainty that it will never cause the ECU to fail ? No matter which way you slice it, it has been done to owners ECU's without their knowledge or consent and it's a TOTALLY GHETTO way of encryption.
    It's your prerogative wether or not to use any tuner. Andy has been very forthcoming about it, as already shown. Also, MBUSA has been notorious for voiding warranties for any aftermarket products, even wheels. Yes, it has happened. So, I really don't think warranty is at issue. We all know we are modifying a vehicle and the warranty is subject to that, epoxy or no epoxy.

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    But still, having to use a CNC machine to clear away all that epoxy is still pretty hard to swallow for me and I'd be pissed off even if the ECU was still fine.
    Nobody had to CNC anything. Someone could have easily had Andy put the ECU back to stock, but chose not to. We don't know the story.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    It's your prerogative wether or not to use any tuner. Andy has been very forthcoming about it, as already shown. Also, MBUSA has been notorious for voiding warranties for any aftermarket products, even wheels. Yes, it has happened. So, I really don't think warranty is at issue. We all know we are modifying a vehicle and the warranty is subject to that, epoxy or no epoxy.
    Are you kidding me ??? Are you really going to cite MBUSA voiding warranty for wheels as if that is an apples to apples comparison in this scenario ??? Any dealer that might see an ECU tampered with in this manner is going to raise some VERY BIG CONCERNS and that is a FACT. You cannot say the same for aftermarket wheels. The ECU controls so many different aspects of the vehicle that an initial visual inspection would most likely cause the dealer to immediatly call the regional rep and then it's GAME OVER.
    Your argument does not hold a drop of water. There are plenty of ways to modify a car and not have the dealer immediatly throw up a red flag - this is not one of them and you are foolish to suggest otherwise.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Are you kidding me ??? Are you really going to cite MBUSA voiding warranty for wheels as if that is an apples to apples comparison in this scenario ??? Any dealer that might see an ECU tampered with in this manner is going to raise some VERY BIG CONCERNS and that is a FACT. You cannot say the same for aftermarket wheels. The ECU controls so many different aspects of the vehicle that an initial visual inspection would most likely cause the dealer to immediatly call the regional rep and then it's GAME OVER.
    Your argument does not hold a drop of water.
    Really? Because dealers open the ECUs how often? Sorry, bro, but my argument holds water because it's happened before. Voiding warranty is voiding warranty...and they are known to do it any little chance they get.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    Nobody had to CNC anything. Someone could have easily had Andy put the ECU back to stock, but chose not to. We don't know the story.
    So what you're saying is that this is industry standard to leave the customer high and dry. If the customer has a falling out with the tuner and says, "Screw you, I don't want my money back, I don't ever want anything to do with you again" - then what do you think is going to happen when said customer takes this $#@!ed up ECU to another tuner ????? I'll tell you what will happen, THIS THREAD - because no RESPECTABLE tuner is going to even ATTEMPT to try and remove that mound of epoxy. WHY ??? BECAUSE IT ISN'T INDUSTRY STANDARD to modify hardware in such a way!!!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    So what you're saying is that this is industry standard to leave the customer high and dry. If the customer has a falling out with the tuner and says, "Screw you, I don't want my money back, I don't ever want anything to do with you again" - then what do you think is going to happen when said customer takes this $#@!ed up ECU to another tuner ????? I'll tell you what will happen, THIS THREAD - because no RESPECTABLE tuner is going to even ATTEMPT to try and remove that mound of epoxy. WHY ??? BECAUSE IT ISN'T INDUSTRY STANDARD to modify hardware in such a way!!!!!
    Then that's the customer's dumbass fault for not having the tuner remove the epoxy first as he stated he would. I'm sorry, but I can't side with arrogance over common sense. Someone already commented saying this is standard practice with audio engineering. Maybe someone was just smart enough to pioneer it in auto engineering.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    Really? Because dealers open the ECUs how often? Sorry, bro, but my argument holds water because it's happened before. Voiding warranty is voiding warranty...and they are known to do it any little chance they get.
    Clearly you missed this in my first post here:

    " One could argue that it's not harming the functioning of the ECU, but could you also say with absolute certainty that it will never cause the ECU to fail ?"

    So can you say with 100% certainty that this "epoxy encryption" will never cause any problems with the ECU whatsoever ??
    Anyone in their right mind cannot agree to that statement thus proving your argument doesn't hold water. Chances are it could fail giving the dealer the opportunity to open it and thus voiding the warranty.
    Do you know what kind of equipment the dealer has to monitor voltage inside the ECU ? I do...and I can tell you with absolute certainty that if this ECU was diagnosed, the epoxy covering the other components would cause a voltage spike outside it's normal parameters and raise a few eyebrows.

  9. #59
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    A couple of things to take away from this:

    1. Without question, IF this vehicle had have had an engine/ECU issue, MB would have voided the warranty instantly. I really do not care what our resident lawyer would say, but this vehicle would have been null and voided INSTANTLY. If you feel otherwise, please stand up and defend them with time and money.

    2. It is NOT industry standard to do this tactic to save your IP material. NO ONE Does this except for company A, PERIOD.

    3. It is common knowledge that company A gets their tunes from tectech. They have even stated that themselves. For those non believers please check the dyno graphs at both sites to see the similarities/exact graphs. If you like I can post them myselfClick here to enlarge

    4. It can be argued from both sides that the title is misleading, but it still has your attention on this matter, doesn't it? I personally would agree that it was NOT ruined as it was stated that they removed it. Simple fact here guys. Why was it removed, now that IS a good question. I to would like to see the finished product after the millingClick here to enlarge

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Clearly you missed this in my first post here:

    " One could argue that it's not harming the functioning of the ECU, but could you also say with absolute certainty that it will never cause the ECU to fail ?"

    So can you say with 100% certainty that this "epoxy encryption" will never cause any problems with the ECU whatsoever ??
    Anyone in their right mind cannot agree to that statement thus proving your argument doesn't hold water. Chances are it could fail giving the dealer the opportunity to open it and thus voiding the warranty.
    Do you know what kind of equipment the dealer has to monitor voltage inside the ECU ? I do...and I can tell you with absolute certainty that if this ECU was diagnosed, the epoxy covering the other components would cause a voltage spike outside it's normal parameters and raise a few eyebrows.
    Can you say 100% that it can cause harm? Surely if it's used in other industries on boards that has to be some indication, but you didn't give that any deference. Your mind is clouded with your hatred toward Andy/MHP. You keep using "your argument does not hold any water." That's a common phrase for people who argue without conviction. It's a subconscious defense mechanism. That only really tells me that you don't absolutely believe what you post....and you can't, because you can't say with certainty that you know this particular epoxy can cause any damage whatsoever.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    Then that's the customer's dumbass fault for not having the tuner remove the epoxy first as he stated he would. I'm sorry, but I can't side with arrogance over common sense. Someone already commented saying this is standard practice with audio engineering. Maybe someone was just smart enough to pioneer it in auto engineering.
    You truly are an idiot.
    So some guy with no credibility comes on here and in his FIRST POST states that this is common practice in the field of audio engineering and you immediately take that as FACT ???? For an attorney you really have a strange way of finding the facts...
    And so now the customer is the "dumbass"??? I have been in situations with people where I have been so put off that I was willing to lose thousands of dollars just to never have to hear from them again or have anything to do with them because I had lost all faith in them. So if this were the case, then I would be the "dumbass" ???

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    You truly are an idiot.
    So some guy with no credibility comes on here and in his FIRST POST states that this is common practice in the field of audio engineering and you immediately take that as FACT ???? For an attorney you really have a strange way of finding the facts...
    And so now the customer is the "dumbass"??? I have been in situations with people where I have been so put off that I was willing to lose thousands of dollars just to never have to hear from them again or have anything to do with them because I had lost all faith in them. So if this were the case, then I would be the "dumbass" ???
    No, you're the dumbass now. Off to MBW for me too.

    I'm done with this $#@!.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    Can you say 100% that it can cause harm? Surely if it's used in other industries on boards that has to be some indication, but you didn't give that any deference. Your mind is clouded with your hatred toward Andy/MHP. You keep using "your argument does not hold any water." That's a common phrase for people who argue without conviction. It's a subconscious defense mechanism. That only really tells me that you don't absolutely believe what you post....and you can't, because you can't say with certainty that you know this particular epoxy can cause any damage whatsoever.
    Again, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, and yes, I know for a fact that if the ECU pictured in this thread was diagnosed by a dealer that the following would occur:

    "and I can tell you with absolute certainty that if this ECU was diagnosed, the epoxy covering the other components would cause a voltage spike outside it's normal parameters and raise a few eyebrows."

    The reason I know it can happen is because my dealer performed the same test on my ECU when I first got my car and it threw a CEL. I watched them perform the test and know for FACT that if the ECU in question was tested in the same manner, it would fail the test and be opened up.
    This has nothing to do with my thoughts about Andy or MHP but everything to do with someone damaging a customers ECU. Try to stay on topic.

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    No, you're the dumbass now. Off to MBW for me too.

    I'm done with this $#@!.
    Good riddance. I thought you "argued with conviction" ??? So I guess that is your "subconscious defense mechanism" - to run away from a topic because you can't successfully argue your point...Well played.

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    last time i checked , i had my ecu tuned by MHP . i sent it to them and had it back in 2 days . i don't give a sh#t if they put HE-MAN slime on it . if the product or tune works great for the customer and can be easily reversed , as said so by Andy , does it really matter what it looks like on the inside of a box that will never get viewed ? i might question it if there was a thread that said Andy's epoxy burned my car to the ground .i think Sticky may have gone a little overboard on this thread Click here to enlargea CNC machine to remove epoxy ???????i think everyone has had superglue on their finger . i dont think anyone used a skillsaw to remove it Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BAD430BENZ Click here to enlarge
    last time i checked , i had my ecu tuned by MHP . i sent it to them and had it back in 2 days . i don't give a sh#t if they put HE-MAN slime on it . if the product or tune works great for the customer and can be easily reversed , as said so by Andy , does it really matter what it looks like on the inside of a box that will never get viewed ? i might question it if there was a thread that said Andy's epoxy burned my car to the ground .i think Sticky may have gone a little overboard on this thread Click here to enlargea CNC machine to remove epoxy ???????i think everyone has had superglue on their finger . i dont think anyone used a skillsaw to remove it Click here to enlarge
    And what would you do if you had a CEL and the dealer voided your warranty ? Just a hypothetical....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    And what would you do if you had a CEL and the dealer voided your warranty ? Just a hypothetical....
    if i got a cel , i would send the thing back to Andy to put back to stock until the problem was fixed . there are lots of ways to skin a cat . you have to be smarter than the average bear . i have enough done to my car that the warranty is voided already anyway . it's kinda nice to know people at the dealership .

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    And what would you do if you had a CEL and the dealer voided your warranty ? Just a hypothetical....
    and if people are that worried about the warranty........they shouldn't modify the carClick here to enlarge

  19. #69
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    the whole idea behind modding is to try and stay off the dealers radar. A tune, hard to detect if the checksum remains zero...headers, maybe not so much. Malfunctioning ECU with epoxy all over it ? Game over.
    There ARE many ways to skin a cat - using epoxy is not one of them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BAD430BENZ Click here to enlarge
    if i got a cel , i would send the thing back to Andy to put back to stock until the problem was fixed . there are lots of ways to skin a cat . you have to be smarter than the average bear . i have enough done to my car that the warranty is voided already anyway . it's kinda nice to know people at the dealership .
    What are you going to do if you get a CEL and Andy is out of business ??

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    No, you're the dumbass now. Off to MBW for me too.

    I'm done with this $#@!.
    This happens when a troll has the right to speak and others can't shut him up. sad

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    Guys your lack of knowledge in electronics is sure evident. this process is called? I rather let you guys do homework it has been done for the last 30+ years to protect proprietary designs of electronic circuitry and other components from being copied and sold for less ( china) knock offs and competitors. Do your research before making statements. IBM even does this as does MAC.Its the very little secrets that separate the best from good or the superior from mediocre.With the scenarios of late I do not blame anyone for taking such measures to save their files because this industry is a mess it seems with nobody doing any of their own engineering, just stealing and claiming it to be theirs. Such a shame pretty soon China will jump on board and be selling files for 99 cents and you guys will be all over it. This is why our country is suffering everyone is lazy to be a pioneer or do anything on their own, all a copy game in every industry. I am a recording and mastering engineer in NYC and I know this process well from the designers of equipment I use daily that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even my Krell Monoblock amps are....., opps there's that magic word i left out again, Only products that are the best of the best use this approach because encryption is easily broken. We already know MHP track record speaks for itself. Enough said. and anyone who takes a CNC mill to a piece of electronics is a total idiot and should be ashamed to even post that up. I have seen repair guys come to the studio and fix our SSL board and its a $#@! to get this resin off but its there for a reason to stop you and me and anyone in between from stealing and reverse engineering things for their own benefit. its things like this that separate the best from run of the mill and with cars the same principals would apply. Please show us photos of before and after Please show us a video milling the ECU so we can all laugh Please prove this ECU was broken and the endmill didn't break it Please tell us why the ECU was even opened and in question with no evidence to back up it being faulty. Thats the most questionable issue at large hmmmmm I cant stop laughing right now at my desk over the ignorance that runs wild on car forums.

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    What MHP aka tectec / pascal doesnt realize is there is a bdm pad on the whole other side of the board that can read and write the file ... Not just the pad he covered.

    If you want this crazy IP tune then simply purchase it from singh autosport or eurotek with no epoxy problems. Thry sell tectec too.

    Word on the street is a popular but newbie tuner around the mbw parts uses a ripped tectec file so the epoxy isnt doing much.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    You truly are an idiot.
    So some guy with no credibility comes on here and in his FIRST POST states that this is common practice in the field of audio engineering and you immediately take that as FACT ???? For an attorney you really have a strange way of finding the facts...
    And so now the customer is the "dumbass"??? I have been in situations with people where I have been so put off that I was willing to lose thousands of dollars just to never have to hear from them again or have anything to do with them because I had lost all faith in them. So if this were the case, then I would be the "dumbass" ???
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    What are you going to do if you get a CEL and Andy is out of business ??
    what if ? what if ? what if ?.......every response from you is a question and i know that you have all the answers but i am happy with my tune and my experience with MHP . Andy has been nothing but straight forward with me and has had some of the best customer service i have had . you can just continue with your little Anti-MHP demonstration and your total knowledge of everything , and i will stick to what i know . just like your buddy Jim said , you have to pay to play and i will pay my way and you can pay your own way .

    can't wait for the next question from you Click here to enlarge

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