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  1. #26
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I am going to chime in. I have a few points to make. @c32AMG-DTM already covered them.

    First off, I agree the title of this thread should be changed to reflect truth, if indeed this is a truthful forum.

    Secondly, owners are sending their ECUs to tuners to tune. Owners have a reasonable expectation that tuners will do whatever they do in order to give them the product they paid for, which is actually just a license. When you purchase a tune, you're merely licensing it from the tuner. You may own the hardware, but the software on the ECU is no longer your property.

    Companies have every right to protect their IP from infringement. Written code can be copyrighted and is in fact IP. Just because the new code was modified from existing code does not change the fact that it is IP. Mercedes (and other manufacturers) encrypt the code to prevent infringement, but they will never sue tuners, because they have sales increased from people to intend to tune the cars, much like yourself. Removable epoxy = encryption.

    I don't know which tuners or how many of them have a practice of using epoxy, but it appears from another post that MHP does this and offers to remove it and put the ECU back to stock if so desired. Really, some of y'all are just moving the hater train up the track more with this thread. I have yet to see anyone post that a tuner epoxied the ECU and refuses to remove it. This is really unwarranted, folks. The entire thread.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    ...if somebody does not have $40,000 sitting in a savings account to replace a blown AMG motor they better not even consider modding their car IMO, better yet take your money that you were gonna spend on that tune and buy an extended warranty and keep the car stock.
    Agree 100%.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    I am going to chime in. I have a few points to make. @c32AMG-DTM already covered them.

    First off, I agree the title of this thread should be changed to reflect truth, if indeed this is a truthful forum.

    Secondly, owners are sending their ECUs to tuners to tune. Owners have a reasonable expectation that tuners will do whatever they do in order to give them the product they paid for, which is actually just a license. When you purchase a tune, you're merely licensing it from the tuner. You may own the hardware, but the software on the ECU is no longer your property.

    Companies have every right to protect their IP from infringement. Written code can be copyrighted and is in fact IP. Just because the new code was modified from existing code does not change the fact that it is IP. Mercedes (and other manufacturers) encrypt the code to prevent infringement, but they will never sue tuners, because they have sales increased from people to intend to tune the cars, much like yourself. Removable epoxy = encryption.
    Thanks for chiming in, most of what you said is what I already said in a previous post myself and is pretty much what I expected to be "IP law". I believe a tuners "tune" is IP and they have a right to protect or encrypt it, however where I disagree with you is on your "Removable epoxy = encryption" comment. You stated the "hardware" is the property of the owner, physically applying a physical epoxy barrier is altering the hardaware, you can't see and touch IP, you can see and touch hardware.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for chiming in, most of what you said is what I already expected and said in a previous post myself. I believe a tuners "tune" is IP and they have a right to protect or encrypt it, however where I disagree with you is on your "Removable epoxy = encryption" comment. You stated the "hardware" is the property of the owner, physically applying a physical epoxy barrier is altering the hardaware, you can's see and touch IP, you can see and touch hardware.
    The hardware is not being "altered" or "destroyed" or anything of that nature. Epoxy serves the same purpose as an encryption. If the epoxy was permanent and could not be removed, altering the hardware, you would be correct.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    The hardware is not being "altered" or "destroyed" or anything of that nature. Epoxy serves the same purpose as an encryption. If the epoxy was permanent and could not be removed, altering the hardware, you would be correct.
    Very very fine line here. I am not agreeing with you but I suppose the arguement could be made. Furthermore MHP only just came out a couple weeks ago and posted about the epoxy. I highly doubt any of their customers were made aware of it at the time the work was performed.
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    Well its obvious whomever decided to open up this ECU clearly had an intent of stealing the file or something. Now on a second note why don't you post photos of the actually CNC mill working over the ECU with the end mill spinning and cutting? I doubt anyone would because only a fool would even attempt this. For all the skeptics please prove the CNC milled the board to remove the glue or prove this ECU was broken or hurt from the tuner. If you can not prove this then you wasted everyone's time reading it. Makes a nice photo to simply clamp an ECU to a mill but id like to see the action guys, sorry. major electronic manufacture do this to protect their designs and IP. I am involved in pro audio and this is common place for very high end equipment in recording studios and home audio. I think with all the drama these boards have been igniting over tuning is the main reason tuners go to this extreme to stop others. I think this thread is just an attempt to throw someone under the bus who isnt a paying sponsor here anymore.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Very very fine line here. I am not agreeing with you but I suppose the arguement could be made. Furthermore MHP only just came out a couple weeks ago and posted about the epoxy. I highly doubt any of their customers were made aware of it at the time the work was performed.
    True perhaps, but now you're going down a different path. Most tuners, in my experience, don't fully disclose exactly what they have to do to an ME 9.7 ECU to load their tune on it (or, they downplay it), because they don't want to risk a sale on what they view to be a trivial issue, one which the customer most likely won't fully understand anyway.

    So, you're splitting hairs in a sense. If MHP told all their clients "if for any reason you're unhappy, we'll gladly put you back to the stock ECU map, but it's important that you send the ECU back to us to process your request" - in a way, they've notified their clients of this. They haven't disclosed each and every step to load/unload, add/remove encryption/epoxy/etc, but I don't know of any tuners that do. I.e. it's not SOP or best-practices to do so in this industry. Maybe someday that'll change, who knows?

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    True perhaps, but now you're going down a different path. Most tuners, in my experience, don't fully disclose exactly what they have to do to an ME 9.7 ECU to load their tune on it (or, they downplay it), because they don't want to risk a sale on what they view to be a trivial issue, one which the customer most likely won't fully understand anyway.

    So, you're splitting hairs in a sense. If MHP told all their clients "if for any reason you're unhappy, we'll gladly put you back to the stock ECU map, but it's important that you send the ECU back to us to process your request" - in a way, they've notified their clients of this. They haven't disclosed each and every step to load/unload, add/remove encryption/epoxy/etc, but I don't know of any tuners that do. I.e. it's not SOP or best-practices to do so in this industry. Maybe someday that'll change, who knows?
    It's a safe bet that I have owned more modded vehichles than the average person, I have owned cars tuned by Lingenfelter, Dinan, PC and more and none of them ever did anything like this.
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  9. #34
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    /inb4benzomannyc is Andy.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    /inb4benzomannyc is Andy.
    You think? LOL
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  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    It's a safe bet that I have owned more modded vehichles than the average person, I have owned cars tuned by Lingenfelter, Dinan, PC and more and none of them ever did anything like this.
    Or perhaps you just didn't know they did.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    You think? LOL
    Actually, I don't. Writing style is completely different. I just knew that you were going to go there.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    Or perhaps you just didn't know they did.
    I am certain that the Dinan and PC were never epoxyed, can't confirm the Lingenfelter, but the fact that the guy that tunes for them is a friends brother I would go out on a limb and say he probably did not epoxy my board.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    It's a safe bet that I have owned more modded vehichles than the average person, I have owned cars tuned by Lingenfelter, Dinan, PC and more and none of them ever did anything like this.
    I don't see the relevance of your response to my post (#32). Are you saying that those tuners did disclose exactly what steps they go through when tuning your vehicles, in rebuttal to my assertion that tuners typically do not?

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    I wish people on this forum would stick to discrediting tuners who actually destroy $#@!.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    I wish people on this forum would stick to discrediting tuners who actually destroy $#@!.
    People seemingly prefer to discredit those they have an axe to grind with. Personally, professionally, or both.

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    People seemingly prefer to discredit those they have an axe to grind with. Personally, professionally, or both.
    It's a truly sad world in which we live.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    I don't see the relevance of your response to my post (#32). Are you saying that those tuners did disclose exactly what steps they go through when tuning your vehicles, in rebuttal to my assertion that tuners typically do not?
    All I am saying is that none of my numerous other "tuned" ecus were ever epoxyed as a form of encryption.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    I am going to chime in. I have a few points to make. @c32AMG-DTM already covered them.

    First off, I agree the title of this thread should be changed to reflect truth, if indeed this is a truthful forum.

    Secondly, owners are sending their ECUs to tuners to tune. Owners have a reasonable expectation that tuners will do whatever they do in order to give them the product they paid for, which is actually just a license. When you purchase a tune, you're merely licensing it from the tuner. You may own the hardware, but the software on the ECU is no longer your property.

    Companies have every right to protect their IP from infringement. Written code can be copyrighted and is in fact IP. Just because the new code was modified from existing code does not change the fact that it is IP. Mercedes (and other manufacturers) encrypt the code to prevent infringement, but they will never sue tuners, because they have sales increased from people to intend to tune the cars, much like yourself. Removable epoxy = encryption.

    I don't know which tuners or how many of them have a practice of using epoxy, but it appears from another post that MHP does this and offers to remove it and put the ECU back to stock if so desired. Really, some of y'all are just moving the hater train up the track more with this thread. I have yet to see anyone post that a tuner epoxied the ECU and refuses to remove it. This is really unwarranted, folks. The entire thread.
    Well said.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    /inb4benzomannyc is Andy.
    Sorry pal I am not Andy I have been an active member of MBworld since 2003 way before Andy rose to the circuit of Mercedes Benz tuning. You guys are such a bunch of jokers it makes me laugh. I signed up with the intent this forum may have a more mature audience which it simply does not as I am finding out.

    Like my post stated prove it that this ECU was ruined or the CNC actually cut the glue off or just shut up. If there is no proof then this post and all post in this thread are clearly here to discredit a company in a ruthless manner. It's shame. Do any of you guys have actual real jobs or careers? Sorry I don't have 7000 post to be a forum top dog because I actually work for a living and do not thrive on bashing others in public domain to make myself feel better like most of you guys do.
    JRCart lets be real with your statements of owning all these modded cars like your the baddest guy on the block. Your still bragging about your OLD CLK 63, and you play the role of a district attorney on forums. Why don't you go buy an Aventador or 599 GTO and mod those cars or build a collection of world class vintage and race cars and then I would actually respect you but I simply do not since your behavior is nothing but immature and demeaning. You are not a true car guy, just some ego driven cyber bully who needs an ego boost from phantom friends on web forums. Life is way to short to be living and acting the way some of you guys intend to choose. It is time to Wake up and Grow Up!

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzomannyc Click here to enlarge
    Sorry pal I am not Andy I have been an active member of MBworld since 2003 way before Andy rose to the circuit of Mercedes Benz tuning. You guys are such a bunch of jokers it makes me laugh. I signed up with the intent this forum may have a more mature audience which it simply does not as I am finding out.

    Like my post stated prove it that this ECU was ruined or the CNC actually cut the glue off or just shut up. If there is no proof then this post and all post in this thread are clearly here to discredit a company in a ruthless manner. It's shame. Do any of you guys have actual real jobs or careers? Sorry I don't have 7000 post to be a forum top dog because I actually work for a living and do not thrive on bashing others in public domain to make myself feel better like most of you guys do.
    JRCart lets be real with your statements of owning all these modded cars like your the baddest guy on the block. Your still bragging about your OLD CLK 63, and you play the role of a district attorney on forums. Why don't you go buy an Aventador or 599 GTO and mod those cars or build a collection of world class vintage and race cars and then I would actually respect you but I simply do not since your behavior is nothing but immature and demeaning. You are not a true car guy, just some ego driven cyber bully who needs an ego boost from phantom friends on web forums. Life is way to short to be living and acting the way some of you guys intend to choose. It is time to Wake up and Grow Up!
    Read all my posts. I said you were not Andy. I made that comment, because there are certain members in this thread who keep targeting new members as being Andy posting under a different username. Yes, they are very infantile.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzomannyc Click here to enlarge
    Sorry pal I am not Andy I have been an active member of MBworld since 2003 way before Andy rose to the circuit of Mercedes Benz tuning. You guys are such a bunch of jokers it makes me laugh. I signed up with the intent this forum may have a more mature audience which it simply does not as I am finding out.

    Like my post stated prove it that this ECU was ruined or the CNC actually cut the glue off or just shut up. If there is no proof then this post and all post in this thread are clearly here to discredit a company in a ruthless manner. It's shame. Do any of you guys have actual real jobs or careers? Sorry I don't have 7000 post to be a forum top dog because I actually work for a living and do not thrive on bashing others in public domain to make myself feel better like most of you guys do.
    JRCart lets be real with your statements of owning all these modded cars like your the baddest guy on the block. Your still bragging about your OLD CLK 63, and you play the role of a district attorney on forums. Why don't you go buy an Aventador or 599 GTO and mod those cars or build a collection of world class vintage and race cars and then I would actually respect you but I simply do not since your behavior is nothing but immature and demeaning. You are not a true car guy, just some ego driven cyber bully who needs an ego boost from phantom friends on web forums. Life is way to short to be living and acting the way some of you guys intend to choose. It is time to Wake up and Grow Up!
    I think he was being sacrcastic
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    I wish people on this forum would stick to discrediting tuners who actually destroy $#@!.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    People seemingly prefer to discredit those they have an axe to grind with. Personally, professionally, or both.
    +1

    This is just a witch hunt.

    Andy has stated publicly he would gladly remove the epoxy
    if the customer desired. Many of you got your wish when Andy
    was removed from this forum but I guess that wasn't enough?
    Very sad.

    Back to mbworld for me.
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    Stage 1 Mods:
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    10.87 @ 127.02 - STAGE 1
    10.53 @ 131.31 - STAGE 2
    10.47 @ 133.20 - STAGE 3

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    Some very good points and counter points being made here and I tend to agree with all of them.

    I think what is being said at this point is that Andy previously admitted that he does this to the ECU's he tunes - even showed a picture of it...but the pic he showed didn't show the the true amount of epoxy and the haphazard manner in which it was applied. Looking at the first few pics in this thread, you can clearly see the mound of epoxy is covering up other components on the board. I'd be pissed about that. I don't give a $#@! if the tuner says that he has the tools and solvents to safely remove it, I wouldn't want it there in the first place nor would I ever agree to it if I was told beforehand that this was their GHETTO way of encryption. And Furthermore, I guarantee you if a dealer saw this they would void the owners warranty citing a severely damaged and tampered with ECU - or, they would refuse to do any work on the vehicle until the owner purchased a new ECU.

    So many of you take such pride in your AMG's and nit pick every single little thing about them - I'd be willing to be that these same people would be very surprised to know that tucked away under their hood was an ECU that had some gigantic glob of epoxy covering it. One could argue that it's not harming the functioning of the ECU, but could you also say with absolute certainty that it will never cause the ECU to fail ? No matter which way you slice it, it has been done to owners ECU's without their knowledge or consent and it's a TOTALLY GHETTO way of encryption.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PetroC63 Click here to enlarge
    +1

    This is just a witch hunt.

    Andy has stated publicly he would gladly remove the epoxy
    if the customer desired. Many of you got your wish when Andy
    was removed from this forum but I guess that wasn't enough?
    Very sad.

    Back to mbworld for me.
    You know, it's funny that you say that. I think many are thinking the same thing.

    Don't get me wrong, MHP/Andy is not without faults, but getting to read his posts was one signficant aspect that made this place unique and different than MBW. Now, BenzBoost seemingly is becoming more polarizing and inflammatory and has very little unique, technical info that one can't readily get elsewhere, oftentimes much sooner and with more info/comments/feedback (due to much higher traffic). For example: Renntech's new M157 tune track results? That was posted days earlier by SGC on MBW. The moderation has also eased significantly over there - which was the most often-cited complaint.

    But couldn't agree more, the "Joe, Jim, and Luke show" is becoming a pretty predictable satire. Witchhunt indeed.

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