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  1. #26
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    Sticky: you figure Japan would've attacked us pretty close to the timeframe they did, with or without FDR's counter-intel trick to force their hand when the blockade didn't work?

    I'd agree they didn't have much choice under the circumstances. Except of course free trade with China were China up for it. Which is to say, their ruling class up for it, which they weren't as although peaceful trade would've benefited both peoples immensely (and saving the Jap oligarchy's arses) it wouldn't have profited China's oligarchy. That's why you had some Chinese aiding and abetting the Japs around the perimeter as they were dirt poor and pretty much willing to lick any hand that fed 'em.

    I say we drop the "US interests" charade, let the oil conglomerates hire Xe to defend what are clearly private interests given the fact that we're not given a share in but sold the product of those interests - unless i missed the memo about the nationalisation of the oil industry - then X5 could sign up and get paid based on his market value instead of feeding his family on government cheese. The companies make money, the military budget shrinks, the debt's paid down, the economy fires up and everyone's happy. Except the Arabs of course, but really, they take that whole "ours" and "yours" thing way too far.

    propain: Since it's been shown that the House of Saud supports anti-US terrorism, should we invade them as well? What if the Mossad was involved? What of the "dancing Israeli students" found jumping for joy during the attack in a field across the Hudson who were quickly released and spirited back to Israel after being found to have Mossad connections? What if it could be shown they had ties to our own intelligence service, that it went all the way to the top and that those currently in power are protecting the guilty? Time for regime change here stateside? As in the whole structure and not just playing musical dictators?

    (in my best Stewie Griffin deadpan) eh letsjustsupportthetroops..
    Last edited by susan28; 10-26-2011 at 12:16 PM.
    ​"For the most part, it was pretty quiet all night long in gold and silver, but I'm sure the bullion banks are still lurking out there somewhere." -Ed Steer

  2. #27
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    The moral of the story is Vote Ron Paul 2012, and vote for him in the primaries in ur states if you want to see something change. Or just keep paying attention to sports, and other nonsense.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    The moral of the story is Vote Ron Paul 2012, and vote for him in the primaries in ur states if you want to see something change. Or just keep paying attention to sports, and other nonsense.
    I Just sent off my party-change form yesterday. All Paul supporters should check their state's rules on primaries and change their party affiliation to R if need be, these guys are!
    ​"For the most part, it was pretty quiet all night long in gold and silver, but I'm sure the bullion banks are still lurking out there somewhere." -Ed Steer

  4. #29
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    PS: Don't forget, it varies by state, but for a lot of them, you need to be registered Republican for 3 months before you can vote in the primaries. Don't put this off!
    ​"For the most part, it was pretty quiet all night long in gold and silver, but I'm sure the bullion banks are still lurking out there somewhere." -Ed Steer

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If it was as close of a military alliance as you think it was don't you think Japan would have told Hitler they were planning to attack the US? It became a military alliance BECAUSE Japan attacked the USA. It was originally supposed to be a 10 year agreement that recognized each other's sphere of interests, as in, you don't mess with us we don't mess with you.

    Incorrect. Unless you use wikipedia... LOL. Funny how you quoted the same text. The pact was a military alliance. The Axis powers. Why did Hitler declare war on the US then? Because they honored the pact they signed 1 year before. Thats why. Japan was smart not to tell Hitler. It was a suprise attack, the less you tell the better. They didnt tell Italy either.

    They were not formally militarily aligned until after Pearl Harbor when the declarations of war took place. The Tripartite Act was a treaty not a declaration of mutual war aims.

    It was an alliance. An alliance formed while WWII was raging. Give me a break man. I find it hilarious that you dont think the Axis Pact signed DURING WWII was a pact of military allaince. LOL. Honestly.. Where the hell did you major in History???

    If you read the document you will see that the only time the military is mentioned is if one of the powers is attacked establishing mutual defense. Hitler wasn't expecting Japan to go on offense, see the difference?

    No I dont. I see it as Hitler was on the offensive already and Japan formed a pact with a country who was at war. Why would Japan do something like this unless it knew it would join the war??? Hitler formed the pact with Japan because they were already engaged in the war as well. Seriously??? LOL

    Hitler was concerned with Europe and Japan with Asia, they just wanted to stay out of each others way and not be dragged into wars which Hitler made his largest mistake up to that point by declaring war on the USA which he did not have to do according to the Tripartite Pact.

    So why did he? Because he honored the pact.


    Did Japan have to resort to war? Well, when Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931 that is when the idea of war with Japan started for the USA, well before Pearl Harbor. When Japan invaded China (US getting pissed that Japan's power is expanding in Asia which threatened US interests in the Philippines) the US later set up an embargo on all oil exports to Japan. This led to the Japanese Navy realizing it only had 2 years of fuel. This in turn pushed Japan to plan to expand further simply to gather resources. So, is an embargo a reason to go to war? It has happened many times in history but now you say it is no excuse?

    An embargo because they were invading other countries?? Completely justified. To continue trade with Japan meant the USA was alligned with Germany, Japan and Italy. That message needed to be made clear. We didnt join the war but we werent going to support the enemy either.

    Japan did not attack the Philippines which they probably should have in retrospect from their perspective. They instead decided to focus on the US Navy in the Pacific as war was coming one way or another. Pearl Harbor was a response to the US embargo and US attempts at curtailing Japanese advances in Asia. As in, forcing them to do what we wanted. The most aggressive thing that could be done without declaring war was to attempt to cut of Japan's resources.

    Hey, what happens when our resources are cutoff? Oh ya, we go to war. Unless you think all this stuff taking place in the Middle East has nothing to do with oil? You think it is just a coincidence wars take place when other countries start buying up resources? Come on man, it's ok for us to declare war under the false guise of weapons or mass bull$#@! but Japan can't? Hurray, we won.

    No one told Japan to wage war. When Japan engaged went on the offensive and alligned themselves with Germany the USA made moves to cut them off. Japan made the first move. Japan was the instagator.

    What do you mean they didn't act like it came out of nowhere? Ever actually read FDR's speech? Hello: "the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan." What did they think was going to happen? Hell, they probably did it just to provoke them.

    It was a sneak attack. Otherwise Japan was looked at as a threat for a while. This is why moves were made to deter further aggression. A declaration of War was possible. Not a sneak attack. Some say they knew it was coming and moved out the carriers to avoid the total loss. Another conspiracy.

    To ignore Japan in the pacific would have been a huge mistake. But according to you, leaving it alone would have been better? Is that what you are saying? Pearl Harbor would have been attacked anyhow. Are you suggesting we continued trading with Japan oil during their war efforts?

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  6. #31
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    All good points propain but one, which is that it's mere "conspiracy" that FDR knew it was coming. It is in the public domain now that we had broken Japan's cryptology and that FDR was privy to communications with their ambassador which disclosed the whole thing. This i read in a well-footnoted book over a decade ago, not a wiki. Maybe he didn't know the precise position of the fleet once radio silence had been engaged, but no way he didn't know of it. Is it so hard to believe, given the paternalist he was?

    (ps like the way you respond within a single quoted text rather than multi-quotes, much easier to follow!)
    ​"For the most part, it was pretty quiet all night long in gold and silver, but I'm sure the bullion banks are still lurking out there somewhere." -Ed Steer

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by susan28 Click here to enlarge
    All good points propain but one, which is that it's mere "conspiracy" that FDR knew it was coming. It is in the public domain now that we had broken Japan's cryptology and that FDR was privy to communications with their ambassador which disclosed the whole thing. This i read in a well-footnoted book over a decade ago, not a wiki. Maybe he didn't know the precise position of the fleet once radio silence had been engaged, but no way he didn't know of it. Is it so hard to believe, given the paternalist he was?

    (ps like the way you respond within a single quoted text rather than multi-quotes, much easier to follow!)
    Thanks Susan. I try not to bring my own opinion into debates like this. My opinion is that FDR knew the attack was coming as well but he didnt know from where. That is why I said in a previous text that I didnt believe anyone was surprised.

    As to the pact Article 3 spells it all out.

    Germany, Italy and Japan agree to co-operate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means when one of the three contracting powers is attacked by a power at present not involved in the European war or in the Chinese-Japanese conflict.

    This is from the document, not from wiki or any other source. The document almost spells out that the pact was military and that if the USA attacked Germany that Japan was obligated to declare war on the US. Some say Hitler was surpised by Japan's attack. I believe they knew about it. But thats just my opinion. Either way, it doesnt spell out that if Japan attacks another country so I can see a bit of Joe's point but I believe that was just semantics at that point because conflict with any of the 3 countries in the pact was a guarantee at the time this pact was formed.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Incorrect. Unless you use wikipedia... LOL. Funny how you quoted the same text. The pact was a military alliance. The Axis powers. Why did Hitler declare war on the US then? Because they honored the pact they signed 1 year before. Thats why. Japan was smart not to tell Hitler. It was a suprise attack, the less you tell the better. They didnt tell Italy either.
    Incorrect unless? What? You are interpreting it as a military alliance and I just told you military isn't mentioned until defense. You are implying an offensive alliance which would by default have included Germany in Pearl Harbor but that was solely a Japanese undertaking provoked by the USA.

    Why did Hitler declare war on the US? I don't know, he shouldn't have, and according to your supposed "alliance" he didn't even have to so seems to me it was more of a treaty.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    It was an alliance. An alliance formed while WWII was raging. Give me a break man. I find it hilarious that you dont think the Axis Pact signed DURING WWII was a pact of military allaince. LOL. Honestly.. Where the hell did you major in History???
    Once again, they were not formally militarily aligned with war aims until they were both at war with the same party. This "alliance" was of mutual defense. Why didn't all the other parties signed onto the act declare war on the USA then?

    I'm a hell of a history student btw Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    No I dont. I see it as Hitler was on the offensive already and Japan formed a pact with a country who was at war. Why would Japan do something like this unless it knew it would join the war??? Hitler formed the pact with Japan because they were already engaged in the war as well. Seriously??? LOL
    I told you why Japan did this and what led to it. Japan didn't know Hitler would declare war on the USA. How can you say they did when Hitler wasn't even informed about the attack and was pissed off about it? The alliance was just to stay out of each other's way. I never saw the Germans NAVY focusing on the Pacific, did you?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    So why did he? Because he honored the pact.
    And everyone else didn't? Huh? Hitler didn't honor the pact by declaring War after Japan attacked. He would have honored the pact by declaring war if the USA attacked Japan. Understand the difference?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    An embargo because they were invading other countries?? Completely justified.
    Police the world mentality.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    To continue trade with Japan meant the USA was alligned with Germany, Japan and Italy. That message needed to be made clear. We didnt join the war but we werent going to support the enemy either.
    Oh, so covertly helping all the powers against Germany is cool? The USA basically said we aren't picking sides, but really they already did. Just like in World War I.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    No one told Japan to wage war. When Japan engaged went on the offensive and alligned themselves with Germany the USA made moves to cut them off. Japan made the first move. Japan was the instagator.
    Japan didn't go off fighting in Europe. Japan was the instigator from your perspective. I am saying the USA certainly was aggressive and did not exactly diffuse tensions. You don't think they wanted an excuse to enter the war?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    It was a sneak attack. Otherwise Japan was looked at as a threat for a while. This is why moves were made to deter further aggression. A declaration of War was possible. Not a sneak attack. Some say they knew it was coming and moved out the carriers to avoid the total loss. Another conspiracy.
    I just told you war was building for over a decade with Japan. It wasn't out of nowhere. Sneak attack? Ok, but they acted like they were surprised Japan's answer was war when they were left with little alternatives. Huge military needing resources vying for power... doesn't sound all too different, does it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    To ignore Japan in the pacific would have been a huge mistake. But according to you, leaving it alone would have been better? Is that what you are saying? Pearl Harbor would have been attacked anyhow. Are you suggesting we continued trading with Japan oil during their war efforts?
    No, what I am saying is the USA certainly shares responsibility for escalating the situation. We are not blameless and certainly it was ultimately Japan who attacked and paid a heavy price for it. However, if we were truly interested in avoiding war why continue to escalate the situation pushing toward it instead of away from it?

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    when one of the three contracting powers is attacked
    Pay attention to this part.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Incorrect unless? What? You are interpreting it as a military alliance and I just told you military isn't mentioned until defense. You are implying an offensive alliance which would by default have included Germany in Pearl Harbor but that was solely a Japanese undertaking provoked by the USA.

    There is no need to interpret it at all. The words in Article 3 state that they will assist one another militarily if attacked. Germany was already at war, so was Italy. Common sense would tell you that 3 out of the 3 countries who are already at war and ALL had intentions of a continued campaign to attack countries they werent currently at war with just signed a military alliance. How this escapes you is beyond me. Ron Paul thinking I guess.

    Why did Hitler declare war on the US? I don't know, he shouldn't have, and according to your supposed "alliance" he didn't even have to so seems to me it was more of a treaty.

    It is not a supposed alliance. All 3 countries knew their campaign would be expanded and knew it was only a matter of time until one of the 3 was attacked by someone who they werent currently engaged with. The pact being signed almost guaranteed that scenario. "I dont know, he shouldnt have" Really? Couldnt have possibly anything to do with the Axis pact he sign right? LOL



    Once again, they were not formally militarily aligned with war aims until they were both at war with the same party. This "alliance" was of mutual defense. Why didn't all the other parties signed onto the act declare war on the USA then?

    I'm a hell of a history student btw Click here to enlarge

    I think your interpretation needs work.
    Click here to enlarge


    I told you why Japan did this and what led to it. Japan didn't know Hitler would declare war on the USA. How can you say they did when Hitler wasn't even informed about the attack and was pissed off about it? The alliance was just to stay out of each other's way. I never saw the Germans NAVY focusing on the Pacific, did you?

    Right because all government leaders tell the truth. You dont think he wanted the USA involved? If he didnt why did he declare war on us? Ohh thats right, to honor that silly pact. If you dont believe the pact then why would he? Answer that question with a "I dont know" and we will get somewhere. Also show me some documentation that "Hitler was pissed off" I dont recall ever reading any. Like I said, im not an expert.

    And everyone else didn't? Huh? Hitler didn't honor the pact by declaring War after Japan attacked. He would have honored the pact by declaring war if the USA attacked Japan. Understand the difference?

    So again, why did he declare war if he didnt have to. Hitler didnt have to do anything. He was a turn coat from the begining and if Japan won he would have finished them off anyhow. Hitler should have never declared war on the US and let us just beat the hell out of each other and then come in and clean up the mess. So again, why? His interests with Japan were to be alligned militarily from the begining. By not declaring war on the US would have shown Japan that he wasnt interested in mutual defence and when Japan won against us as I imagine he thought they would he would ask Japan to help him finish off his campaign.


    Oh, so covertly helping all the powers against Germany is cool? The USA basically said we aren't picking sides, but really they already did. Just like in World War I.

    They picked the side of not doing business with tyrants and war mongers without getting involved militarily. Its more of a moral decision than a provocation.



    Japan didn't go off fighting in Europe. Japan was the instigator from your perspective. I am saying the USA certainly was aggressive and did not exactly diffuse tensions. You don't think they wanted an excuse to enter the war?

    By signing a pact with Germany, the tyrant and war monger of Europe they instigated. They chose their side as the USA responded. No, I dont believe the USA was ready to enter the war. If they were interested in entering the war we would have ramped up our production. We didnt ramp up production until AFTER the attack on Pearl Harbor. Many people say that if Japan or Germany was able to set foot on our soil before Pearl Harbor they would have taken over the USA quite easily. We have NOTHING as far as tanks, planes and other equipment. For a country who wanted to enter the war according to you we certainly werent prepared for it.



    I just told you war was building for over a decade with Japan. It wasn't out of nowhere. Sneak attack? Ok, but they acted like they were surprised Japan's answer was war when they were left with little alternatives. Huge military needing resources vying for power... doesn't sound all too different, does it?

    Sneak attack because Japan didnt declare war first. A very cowardly act.



    No, what I am saying is the USA certainly shares responsibility for escalating the situation. We are not blameless and certainly it was ultimately Japan who attacked and paid a heavy price for it. However, if we were truly interested in avoiding war why continue to escalate the situation pushing toward it instead of away from it?

    Blameless? No. We took some actions that led us to war. Not a guarantee but the enemy thought it was its only option. I can see this point. Inaction, the way this debate started would have been FAR worse and we would be speaking German or Japanses right now.

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  11. #36
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    Lets expand on this: (This is not from wikipedia): http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/triparti.asp

    Accordingly, the governments of Germany, Italy and Japan have agreed as follows:

    ARTICLE ONE


    Japan recognizes and respects the leadership of Germany and Italy in establishment of a new order in Europe.

    ARTICLE TWO


    Germany and Italy recognize and respect the leadership of Japan in the establishment of a new order in greater East Asia.

    ARTICLE THREE


    Germany, Italy and Japan agree to co-operate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means when one of the three contracting powers is attacked by a power at present not involved in the European war or in the Chinese-Japanese conflict.

    (the United States had not attacked japan first, although an economic embargo/trade embargo could be considered an attack, it wasn't physical, although it's results were physical. I see both Sticky's and Propains arguments legitimate, although they don't see eye to eye on this, they are both right, and both wrong, depending on your stance)


    ARTICLE FOUR


    With the view to implementing the present pact, joint technical commissions, members which are to be appointed by the respective governments of Germany, Italy and Japan will meet without delay.

    ARTICLE FIVE


    Germany, Italy and Japan affirm that the aforesaid terms do not in any way affect the political status which exists at present as between each of the three contracting powers and Soviet Russia.(1)

    ARTICLE SIX


    The present pact shall come into effect immediately upon signature and shall remain in force 10 years from the date of its coming into force. At the proper time before expiration of said term, the high contracting parties shall at the request of any of them enter into negotiations for its renewal.
    In faith whereof, the undersigned duly authorized by their respective governments have signed this pact and have affixed hereto their signatures.

    Done in triplicate at Berlin, the 27th day of September, 1940, in the 19th year of the fascist era, corresponding to the 27th day of the ninth month of the 15th year of Showa (the reign of Emperor Hirohito).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Imagine if those Americans flew planes filled with innocent people to destroy not only the economy of your country but as many innocent lives as possible in the name of god. Imagine if the USA protected those people and the USA government refused to do anything about those factions living on their soil.

    Pick a base where the USA occupies and I will give you a reason why it exists. Tell you what, crack down on terrorist camps in your country and we will respond with peace and love. Until then the people of those countries will suffer. Don't blame the US for responding to attacks on its soil, blame the governments of the countries harboring those criminals.

    I am a fan of Ron Paul, he is a smart guy and I agree with most of his points, but this policy and attitude is the reason I will never vote for him and why he will never take office.

    The whole mind our own business didn't work in WWII and with abundantly more powerful weapons and technology today surely wont work now. Wake up. The world is an ugly place where people seek power. Always has been.. always will be. Its human nature.
    so why did the terrorists attacks happen? surely they had nothing to do with our past actions involving said countries.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nickr519 Click here to enlarge
    so why did the terrorists attacks happen? surely they had nothing to do with our past actions involving said countries.
    positive rep for this here
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nickr519 Click here to enlarge
    so why did the terrorists attacks happen? surely they had nothing to do with our past actions involving said countries.
    You want to argue causality now? Are you seriously suggesting that its that simple? Surely those actions by the US didn't involve any action or actions to proceed it. I am honestly amazed how some can oversimplify things.

    You tell me? That statement tells me you have facts that the terrorist actions were justified based on a previous action that was committed or caused by the USA. What was that? Simple statements like that only make you look uninformed and ignorant on the subject. If you want to join the debate please feel free but at least bring something to debate. Please though... this wasnt a request for you to google every site on the planet and regurgate that information in your next post. If you know... then lets hear it. Ill help. I know Clinton unsuccessfully tried to kill Osama with a failed missle attack on his camps in Afghanistan. Is that what you are referring to?

    Positive rep for that cryptic statement? wow... LOL
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    by the way @susan28 government cheese is tasty...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FLYING X5 Click here to enlarge
    by the way @susan28 government cheese is tasty...
    Well glad Sgt Bilko's takin' care of ya Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    You want to argue causality now? Are you seriously suggesting that its that simple? Surely those actions by the US didn't involve any action or actions to proceed it. I am honestly amazed how some can oversimplify things.

    You tell me? That statement tells me you have facts that the terrorist actions were justified based on a previous action that was committed or caused by the USA. What was that? Simple statements like that only make you look uninformed and ignorant on the subject. If you want to join the debate please feel free but at least bring something to debate. Please though... this wasnt a request for you to google every site on the planet and regurgate that information in your next post. If you know... then lets hear it. Ill help. I know Clinton unsuccessfully tried to kill Osama with a failed missle attack on his camps in Afghanistan. Is that what you are referring to?

    Positive rep for that cryptic statement? wow... LOL
    I have no desire to join the debate, I have a life, and it's busy. My post was not primarily statement, nor an entrance into the debate,it was a question; I'm not sure how a question can be cryptic, maybe thought-provoking. Again, not joining the debate, just providing some food for thought.
    By the way, oversimplifying things is not asking thought provoking questions. It is comments like this: "Imagine if those Americans flew planes filled with innocent people to destroy not only the economy of your country but as many innocent lives as possible in the name of god. Imagine if the USA protected those people and the USA government refused to do anything about those factions living on their soil." further, The U.S. and any other country are not reversible for the sake of argument, that's what (idiot) philosophy majors call a big, ugly fallacy of false analogy.

    Although I will say 2 more things: your claims that you could justify every single foreign military base the U.S. upholds, and that the U.S. was "Minding its own buiness" in the WWII era (hint: consider more than the 2-3 years before we entered combat) are laughable at best. Not going to bother arguing anything with you though, I'll leave that to people who apparently have time to do so rather than jobs.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    There is no need to interpret it at all. The words in Article 3 state that they will assist one another militarily if attacked
    Yes, if attacked. Not if attacking. Come on man...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    It is not a supposed alliance. All 3 countries knew their campaign would be expanded and knew it was only a matter of time until one of the 3 was attacked by someone who they werent currently engaged with. The pact being signed almost guaranteed that scenario. "I dont know, he shouldnt have" Really? Couldnt have possibly anything to do with the Axis pact he sign right? LOL
    You do realize more than 3 countries signed this right? Countries that also had no aspirations of world domination? Countries that also did not declare war on the United States? Umm?

    Hitler made a huge mistake declaring war on the USA, I don't know why he did it. Once again, he didn't have to. If he intended to with Japan, maybe they should have talked about this little thing called, uh, Pearl Harbor?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    I think your interpretation needs work.
    My professors didn't think so.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Right because all government leaders tell the truth. You dont think he wanted the USA involved? If he didnt why did he declare war on us? Ohh thats right, to honor that silly pact. If you dont believe the pact then why would he? Answer that question with a "I dont know" and we will get somewhere. Also show me some documentation that "Hitler was pissed off" I dont recall ever reading any. Like I said, im not an expert.
    Read this:

    German dictator Adolf Hitler and Italian dictator Benito Mussolini were under no obligation to declare war on the United States under the mutual defense terms of the Tripartite Pact. Having been unaware of Japanese plans, Hitler was initially furious that the United States had been dragged into the war at a time when he had not yet acquired full control of continental Europe. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    So again, why did he declare war if he didnt have to. Hitler didnt have to do anything.
    I don't know, huge blunder. But here is one theory:

    However, he decided war with the United States was unavoidable, and the Pearl Harbor attack, the publication of Rainbow Five, and Roosevelt's post-Pearl Harbor address, which focused on European affairs as well as the situation with Japan, probably contributed to the declaration. Hitler underestimated American military production capacity, the nation's ability to fight on two fronts, and the time his own Operation Barbarossa would require. Similarly, the Nazis may have hoped the declaration of war, a showing of solidarity with Japan, would result in closer collaboration with the Japanese in Eurasia, particularly against the Soviet Union. Regardless of Hitler's reasons, the decision was an enormous strategic blunder and allowed the United States to enter the European war in support of the United Kingdom and the Allies without much public opposition.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    They picked the side of not doing business with tyrants and war mongers without getting involved militarily. Its more of a moral decision than a provocation.
    Let me guess, you learned this from American history books? Winners write history. Everyone was vying for power. Don't forget, we did use atomic weapons. I think creating the most devastating weapon ever conceived and actually using it doesn't exactly make us look like we aren't war mongers. Um, also, currently being in how many wars again?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    By signing a pact with Germany, the tyrant and war monger of Europe they instigated. They chose their side as the USA responded.
    You are completely missing that war with Japan was building since 1931, arguably earlier.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Many people say that if Japan or Germany was able to set foot on our soil before Pearl Harbor they would have taken over the USA quite easily. We have NOTHING as far as tanks, planes and other equipment. For a country who wanted to enter the war according to you we certainly werent prepared for it.
    You realize it was the American production capacity that turned the tide in Europe, right? You realize it was the vast amount of Sherman tanks that overwhelmed the superior German Panzer tanks, right? What are you talking about? We had everything and had so much we were supplying it... and making money off it. I think some countries still haven't paid off their entire debt from WWII to the USA for arms supplies.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Sneak attack because Japan didnt declare war first. A very cowardly act.
    Or strategic? Did Washington declare he was going to attack on Christmas day?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Blameless? No. We took some actions that led us to war.
    So my point stands? Ok, yay.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nickr519 Click here to enlarge
    I'll leave that to people who apparently have time to do so rather than jobs.
    Hey now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Hey now.
    bimmerboost is your job homie, love. Moreover, you're actually a student of history, whereas I'm an electrical engineer with a linear circuits midterm tomorrow, lol.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nickr519 Click here to enlarge
    I have no desire to join the debate, I have a life, and it's busy. My post was not primarily statement, nor an entrance into the debate,it was a question; I'm not sure how a question can be cryptic, maybe thought-provoking. Again, not joining the debate, just providing some food for thought.
    By the way, oversimplifying things is not asking thought provoking questions. It is comments like this: "Imagine if those Americans flew planes filled with innocent people to destroy not only the economy of your country but as many innocent lives as possible in the name of god. Imagine if the USA protected those people and the USA government refused to do anything about those factions living on their soil." further, The U.S. and any other country are not reversible for the sake of argument, that's what (idiot) philosophy majors call a big, ugly fallacy of false analogy.

    Although I will say 2 more things: your claims that you could justify every single foreign military base the U.S. upholds, and that the U.S. was "Minding its own buiness" in the WWII era (hint: consider more than the 2-3 years before we entered combat) are laughable at best. Not going to bother arguing anything with you though, I'll leave that to people who apparently have time to do so rather than jobs.
    Yeah, nice bail. Thanks for stopping by. Your "Question" was not thought provoking. As it wasn't even a question. No point in even wasting anymore time on you. Your post was laughable at best.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, if attacked. Not if attacking. Come on man...

    Any pact signed during a time of war when all 3 countries are at war is a military alliance. How can you not see this? If attacked... I agree is the verbiage but to think none of these countries would be attacked by a country that they weren't already fighting would be showing ignorance to what the purpose of the pact was to achieve.

    You do realize more than 3 countries signed this right? Countries that also had no aspirations of world domination? Countries that also did not declare war on the United States? Umm?

    I do. Japanese occupied china was one of them. LOL

    Hitler made a huge mistake declaring war on the USA, I don't know why he did it. Once again, he didn't have to. If he intended to with Japan, maybe they should have talked about this little thing called, uh, Pearl Harbor?

    My professors didn't think so.

    Maybe his interpretation needs work too. LOL


    Let me guess, you learned this from American history books? Winners write history. Everyone was vying for power. Don't forget, we did use atomic weapons. I think creating the most devastating weapon ever conceived and actually using it doesn't exactly make us look like we aren't war mongers. Um, also, currently being in how many wars again?

    I agree. Understand where this all began though. The Ron Paul feeling of minding our own business. I don't feel it has a place in this world due to the volatile nature of the planet. You are either proactive or you are conquered.


    You are completely missing that war with Japan was building since 1931, arguably earlier.

    I am not. I said actions by Japan were the reason to deter further aggression. I know the tensions were there and the attack wasn't unexpected.


    You realize it was the American production capacity that turned the tide in Europe, right? You realize it was the vast amount of Sherman tanks that overwhelmed the superior German Panzer tanks, right? What are you talking about? We had everything and had so much we were supplying it... and making money off it. I think some countries still haven't paid off their entire debt from WWII to the USA for arms supplies.

    I do, AFTER Pearl Harbor. AFTER... AFTER. Not before. The USA had little to no Shermans before Pearl Harbor. The Sherman wasn't produced in large numbers until the END of 1942.. again... AFTER Pearl Harbor. Trust me, you may know your history but when it comes to Military History you got nothing on me. Click here to enlarge



    So my point stands? Ok, yay.

    Some of it does, of course. The point was provocation. Japan instigated and provoked our actions leading us to war. Big difference.

    The point anyhow was Ron Paul and his feeling that we should mind our own business is not something I agree with. Inaction is the worst possible strategy in my opinion.


    Good clean debate. Thanks Joe. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Any pact signed during a time of war when all 3 countries are at war is a military alliance. How can you not see this?
    I can't see it because that isn't what it written in the pact. Weird, I know.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    I do. Japanese occupied china was one of them. LOL
    So it's only a military alliance with the players you pick and choose?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Maybe his interpretation needs work too. LOL
    Nah, just his workload.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    I agree. Understand where this all began though. The Ron Paul feeling of minding our own business.
    That started actually with this idea called isolationism that the country engaged in from its conception until about, oh, World War I.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    I am not. I said actions by Japan were the reason to deter further aggression. I know the tensions were there and the attack wasn't unexpected.
    Good, progress.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    I do, AFTER Pearl Harbor. AFTER... AFTER. Not before.
    Actually, the Industrial Revolution had already taken placed BEFORE, not AFTER, BEFORE World War II.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    The USA had little to no Shermans before Pearl Harbor. The Sherman wasn't produced in large numbers until the END of 1942.. again... AFTER Pearl Harbor.
    Um, ya, from American factories with vast production capacity.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Trust me, you may know your history but when it comes to Military History you got nothing on me.
    Then why do you keep getting it wrong?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Some of it does, of course. The point was provocation. Japan instigated and provoked our actions leading us to war. Big difference.
    Japan attacked us. Provocation for that attack was ours. If you keep poking a dog with a stick don't get mad when it bites you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Good clean debate. Thanks Joe.
    No worries, I have to go shower and get ready to look at drunk women dance.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I can't see it because that isn't what it written in the pact. Weird, I know.

    Real world experience will teach you things your professor cant. I know your young. You will learn to think outside those textbooks one day. Black and white was never good enough for me. That is why I say your interpretation needs work. One day... If only the world was that simple.. LOL

    So it's only a military alliance with the players you pick and choose?

    Its written as a military alliance. Sorry. Cant fight that. Defensive or offensive. Still a military alliance. I can pick through every one of the countries who signed that pact and the reasons. I don't know all of them but I do know the motives of many of them. Except for the Axis the others were of a defensive "If we sign this they will leave us alone."
    Yeah.. that worked out great for them. LOL

    Good, progress.

    Funny how its good progress when I see your points yet you are a stone wall when reading others. More young blood. LOL

    Actually, the Industrial Revolution had already taken placed BEFORE, not AFTER, BEFORE World War II.

    LOL
    This was a joke right?

    Um, ya, from American factories with vast production capacity.

    AFTER Pearl Harbor. END OF 1942..... Funny how you pick and choose points when they don't suit your argument. LOL

    Then why do you keep getting it wrong?

    I don't, you just take every comment I make out of context and either don't reply or pick a reply that doesn't fit my initial fact. You said Sherman tanks won the war as a response to me telling you the USA wasn't ready for WWII when Japan attacked as if we had a huge stockpile just sitting there. My reply was they weren't put into mass production until the END of 1942 AFTER Pearl Harbor. You glossed over all those statement and this is your reply? You were wrong, and you are trying to spin your way out of it. LOL


    If we went to war on our own soil the day before Pearl Harbor we would have lost miserably to the Germans military might. We were in no way prepared for war at that time. So your point of trying to get into the war doesn't make sense. Funny how you left that part out. Click here to enlarge


    Japan attacked us. Provocation for that attack was ours. If you keep poking a dog with a stick don't get mad when it bites you.

    Japan was the aggressor. We stopped feeding Japan and it got mad we weren't giving it its energy to fight its enemies. The dog turned on us after we took away its food. Big difference.
    Indeed no worries. Enjoy the girls. Click here to enlarge
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