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  1. #51
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    seriously, you're comparing the number of people he killed as a means of justifying a war or not?

    It only takes one, one innocent civilian killed by your own leader to justify an invasion, what if that one was your mother; wouldnt you want another country to help?
    And what if that innocent civilian was your mother that was killed by the saviors....or a uncle, friend, family member, girlfriend, wife or child......so the country you turned to for help now has filled the empty void of the dictator that it overthrew. Which is better?

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by geminidragon Click here to enlarge
    And what if that innocent civilian was your mother that was killed by the saviors....or a uncle, friend, family member, girlfriend, wife or child......so the country you turned to for help now has filled the empty void of the dictator that it overthrew. Which is better?
    +1 Exacta... Which is what I said... If my Hypothetica Country had a Hypothetical dictator, and we had a hypothetical population of 2 million. During the 20 Years that our Dictator was in power, he killed 500k. Now your country comes and invades my country to overthrow the dictator. Over the course of 10 years you kill 1 million of my country's population in the attempts of overthrowing our dictator. You succeed in overthrowing him, and yet you continue to pile bodies up because now terrorists have moved into my country and we are all getting caught in the cross fire. Now we are looking at another 10 years of violence and possibly another million dead. Damn, my country is no more, the population has been wiped out... What now? Lets look at this country next door, lets do it all over again...

    I know the above is a simplistic way of looking at it, and i know my point, your point and everyone else's point will continue to be argued even after we are long gone... But it's great that we can all voice our opinions without the others wanting to kill us for being different...
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  3. #53
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    all valid points from both sides.

    i do NOT feel the US should be there, I do not theink the US should be the world police.
    I do feel we were lied to to go in in the 1st place.

    but also, those "iraqi" death tolls from us, do not count the many many non-iraqi jihadists that came from other places to come wage war upon the infidels. so the #'s are skewed

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FLYING X5 Click here to enlarge
    +1 Exacta... Which is what I said... If my Hypothetica Country had a Hypothetical dictator, and we had a hypothetical population of 2 million. During the 20 Years that our Dictator was in power, he killed 500k. Now your country comes and invades my country to overthrow the dictator. Over the course of 10 years you kill 1 million of my country's population in the attempts of overthrowing our dictator. You succeed in overthrowing him, and yet you continue to pile bodies up because now terrorists have moved into my country and we are all getting caught in the cross fire. Now we are looking at another 10 years of violence and possibly another million dead. Damn, my country is no more, the population has been wiped out... What now? Lets look at this country next door, lets do it all over again...

    I know the above is a simplistic way of looking at it, and i know my point, your point and everyone else's point will continue to be argued even after we are long gone... But it's great that we can all voice our opinions without the others wanting to kill us for being different...
    I agree with ya that it's a complete double edged sword. However I think that the main difference is the chance of change and hope. When you live in a country with a dictator, you live in fear with hope of a better life right? We come in, oust the dictator, kill many innocents, but at least we didn't do it on purpose, we provide aid to those injured, and we are giving them hope of a changed future. Either way it's tragic but it's a means to an end. WE're fighting in a dynamic war in Iraq that is fought in the middle of the populous. Collateral damage is a certainty. I'm not saying it's ok, just how it seems to be.
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  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    all valid points from both sides.

    i do NOT feel the US should be there, I do not theink the US should be the world police.
    I do feel we were lied to to go in in the 1st place.

    but also, those "iraqi" death tolls from us, do not count the many many non-iraqi jihadists that came from other places to come wage war upon the infidels. so the #'s are skewed
    Plus 1. The jihadists couldn't come in when Saddam was alive. The reason they are there is because we were tricked into a war that can't be won. The country is f'd forever
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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FLYING X5 Click here to enlarge
    +1 Exacta... Which is what I said... If my Hypothetica Country had a Hypothetical dictator, and we had a hypothetical population of 2 million. During the 20 Years that our Dictator was in power, he killed 500k. Now your country comes and invades my country to overthrow the dictator. Over the course of 10 years you kill 1 million of my country's population in the attempts of overthrowing our dictator. You succeed in overthrowing him, and yet you continue to pile bodies up because now terrorists have moved into my country and we are all getting caught in the cross fire. Now we are looking at another 10 years of violence and possibly another million dead. Damn, my country is no more, the population has been wiped out... What now? Lets look at this country next door, lets do it all over again...

    I know the above is a simplistic way of looking at it, and i know my point, your point and everyone else's point will continue to be argued even after we are long gone... But it's great that we can all voice our opinions without the others wanting to kill us for being different...
    If i had to choose, it's better to kill 1 million knowing that there is some form of attempt at a revolution than live in a country where 500k die and no one does $#@! about it.

    US shouldnt be world police, they shouldnt have gotten involved in vietnam, iraq, africa (all the $#@!hole countries there basically consumed US for years) and etc... But, Iraq has a huge infrastructure and a lot of potential. The timing was ALL WRONG, I agree but the justification was not all wrong; Saddam may have ultimately kept that area quiet for a little while, now how are you gonna tell that to the Kurds that he destroyed?

    I mean, where do you draw the line. When does america literally have to step in and overthrow $#@!?

    Look at libya, $#@!ty ass leader. The country formed there own revolution and wanted change and america isn't even helping them (not like we are in afghanistan and Iraq), so what the $#@! does it take to intervene? Seriously, america war policy is ass backwards. Not disagreeing, but saying that it was better to leave saddam alone is just as ignorant as saying leave kim il jong alone. Turning a blind eye worked ok before the atomic bomb was invented.
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  7. #57
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    I agree with you LM. My business is near an army base and I will be the first to say that i completely respect our soldiers for doing their duty, whether its right or wrong. We should not have gone there imo, and we should not be there right now. Even though the reason for going was a lie....or not substantiated by finding any wmd's all we are doing now is creating our own misery by creating people to hate us. I am muslim, im a proud american muslim. I think we went in, did what we felt we had to, and now we should leave. A personal example, I have a cousin who was a history teacher in Baghdad, Iraq. This guy was like a mouse, seriously, a true scholar. While he was at work during the first month of the invasion, his house was raided and for some reason his wife and 3 daughters shot and killed by U S Troops. Who really knows the truth of what happened. He doesnt he was not home. Fact remains he lost everything. Well, he joined a ressistance group, i say again a ressistance group not a terrorist group to fight for his homeland against the people that are killing his family and friends, unfortunately US troops. I can tell you this, I live in the south, in TN and if an army ever invaded here, man the rednecks around here would have there hunting rifles out, be in the trees and bushes and would be sniping out invading soldiers to defend america just like he did. They would be patriots, hes a terrorist.....

    Just food for thought.....I think our troops have done an amazing job being tasked with policing a population which no army should have to do. I think just like any race in the world, some of the bad iraqi's and americans are doing stupid $#@! that makes the good ones on each side look bad. Just my .02 cents, oh damn, i wrote alot, my .10 cents !
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    all valid points from both sides.

    i do NOT feel the US should be there, I do not theink the US should be the world police.
    I do feel we were lied to to go in in the 1st place.

    but also, those "iraqi" death tolls from us, do not count the many many non-iraqi jihadists that came from other places to come wage war upon the infidels. so the #'s are skewed

  8. #58
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    As they say "History is Written by the Victor's (victorious)" In American History, when the colonies fought for independence, when the men did what they had to do, used Gorilla Tactics, they used Terrorism to win against the British. (some might disagree with me) and won. But when it was written in the History books it was called patriotism. Our fore fathers were Patriots, but in the British eyes, they were terrorists...

    When Iraqi's fight for their country, when they are being Patriots to their country, they think of themselves as just that, but we as the invaders, we see them all as terrorists and deal with them as such. But how will History write this one up? Who will be considered the patriots, and who will be considered the Terrorist? To most, the answers are obvious, to others, they won't be sure until all the cards have been played...

    We can all voice our opinions and say "I'm right, your wrong." "Your wrong, I'm Wrong and they are wrong." "We are all Right." But until the truth, whatever it might be comes out, and I mean truly comes to light, we are all making assumptions and guessing. NONE of us are right, and NONE of us are wrong, but only time will show what the answer is. It might a Year, it might take 10, or it could be another 100 year war, but until it ends...
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  9. #59
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    ^^^This is exactly what war creates--more enemies than you had before.
    Now, in theory, if you could just kill the "enemy" or people who already hate you w/o creating more enemies (I don't know how that works, even soldiers have families who love them, no?) then you might gain some ground--see the flaw with that logic?
    This becomes an extermination type mentality and not healthy for either side.

    Military invasions have certain goals and targets to conquer, the key, I think is getting your goals accomplished with the absolute least casualties to your enemy, both military and civilian--especially if your end goal is to win hearts and minds.

    I still think we should negotiate more and then encourage assassination of leaders versus blowing up a whole country to install a new govt--why our govt doesn't sanction open targeting of enemy leaders is beyond me--okay let's go kill thousands of other people and eventually get that dude, silliness!
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