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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    not sure what's the ring time, but i read somewhere it wasn't that good so Mercedes didn't publish it.
    the problem with SL65 Black isn't the weight, sure there are heavier cars out there with better handling, the problem is the power delivery. 740lb-ft is so massive for a track car, and pair it with a 5-Speed Auto and you will get something hard to control.
    I think the problem is weight personally, not the power delivery.

    There was a magazine comparison a little while back where they compared a bunch of 600 hp cars, the SL65, Viper, Zr-1, and LP-640 Murci and the main gripe was the SL65's weight although they also mentioned its very high limits. It was right there with all those other cars.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Yes at $500k, it will spank many cars, but it just won't spank true track cars in its league
    I blame that on Mercedes, like Gordon Murray did Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Unfortunately that is the truth.... but I think they are going that route not for performance reasons, but more for Environmental/Economical reasons They are being pressured into phasing the big displacement NA engines out.

    I love NA for track use and forced induction for drag racing.
    It'd definitely true, they are making the switch just like BMW because they are being pushed due to all this green junk.

    Let's not forget though, Mercedes released the M275 V12 twin turbo well before any of these major changes started taking place. They chose to do an SL black series and chose a forced induction motor for it. Just like with the SLR.

    I think ultimately an NA motor is the best way to go but Mercedes has done NA, turbo, and supercharged for all their high performance cars that certainly had the track in mind.

    I just think doing the M156 again basically mimicking the CLK 63 BS is almost boring.

  3. #28
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    So any guess...what's this thing going to cost?

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    So any guess...what's this thing going to cost?
    Likely $100k.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Let's not forget though, Mercedes released the M275 V12 twin turbo well before any of these major changes started taking place. They chose to do an SL black series and chose a forced induction motor for it. Just like with the SLR.
    Correct. The M275 V12 is also a very old motor.... almost a 10 year old motor and development started probably 15 years ago. When Mercedes decided to release an SL65 BS last year, they had to either choose their most powerful motor or design a brand new one. They ended up going the cheaper route and going with a slightly upgraded version of their V12 engine. However, they have discontinued that engine for the SL as of 2011.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think ultimately an NA motor is the best way to go but Mercedes has done NA, turbo, and supercharged for all their high performance cars that certainly had the track in mind.
    Mercedes/AMG always had track in mind but just never focused deeply enough on handling and full track capabilities until lately. This is evident especially online by the whole "BMW is better in the twisties" debates across multiple forums. They have done quite well in straight line acceleration though and especially well in producing high torque application.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I just think doing the M156 again basically mimicking the CLK 63 BS is almost boring.
    I was thinking along the lines of an upgraded M156 or M159 with 650 hp NA or at least as in the SLS GT3 Click here to enlarge
    2007 E63 P30
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Mercedes/AMG always had track in mind but just never focused deeply enough on handling and full track capabilities until lately. This is evident especially online by the whole "BMW is better in the twisties" debates across multiple forums. They have done quite well in straight line acceleration though and especially well in producing high torque application.
    This is kind of how it historically has been. BMW's have been lighter and better balanced but Mercedes tended to be more for Autobahn cruising. The Black Series Mercedes should really be commended in changing that perception. Mercedes also manages to roll them out across the world, unlike BMW with the CSL and GTS models.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking along the lines of an M156 or M159 with 650 hp NA as in the SLS GT3
    With it being an M156, maybe M159, the most important factor will be if it gets a true dual clutch transmission or not.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    However, they have discontinued that engine for the SL as of 2011.
    Yep, for smaller V8 turbos that may make the SL more nimble with less weight on the nose. We will see, I wonder if they will do another SL black series.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is kind of how it historically has been. BMW's have been lighter and better balanced but Mercedes tended to be more for Autobahn cruising. The Black Series Mercedes should really be commended in changing that perception. Mercedes also manages to roll them out across the world, unlike BMW with the CSL and GTS models.
    What's the difference between the CSL and GTS models? And are they not available across the world?
    2007 E63 P30
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I wonder if they will do another SL black series.
    yea, the idea behind the SL65 BS was pretty stupid, they forgot the definition of track car.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    What's the difference between the CSL and GTS models? And are they not available across the world?
    GTS is a stripped out E92 M3 with more power, just like E46 CSL, but GTS has much higher price tag than CSL.
    and they are not available in U.S

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    What's the difference between the CSL and GTS models? And are they not available across the world?
    BMW did not bring the CSL or GTS to the United States.

    The CSL moniker was most recently used on the E46 M3 and stands for coupe sport lightweight. This was one of the most impressive cars BMW had produced, well, ever.

    I'm not sure why BMW went with GTS instead of CSL for the E92 M3 but it's very similar to the CSL approach.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    GTS is a stripped out E92 M3 with more power, just like E46 CSL, but GTS has much higher price tag than CSL.
    and they are not available in U.S
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    BMW did not bring the CSL or GTS to the United States.

    The CSL moniker was most recently used on the E46 M3 and stands for coupe sport lightweight. This was one of the most impressive cars BMW had produced, well, ever.

    I'm not sure why BMW went with GTS instead of CSL for the E92 M3 but it's very similar to the CSL approach.
    Is there any reason why the GTS is not available in the U.S. ? I would think there is a big market here for it Click here to enlarge
    2007 E63 P30
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  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Is there any reason why the GTS is not available in the U.S. ? I would think there is a big market here for it Click here to enlarge
    it is limited edition and all were sold out before the public show.
    I don't know why stripped out BMW's never came to U.S , E46 CSL and E36 LTW never touched U.S roads.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Is there any reason why the GTS is not available in the U.S. ?
    Yes, because BMW sucks.

  14. #39
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    In my opinion, based on the experiences I've had on track I think naturally aspirated motors are simply superior to anything with a supercharger or turbo. Now, there are plenty of great turbo charged race cars BUT they are set up for maximum high-RPM power, a street-oriented forced induction system is rarely very well suited to the track.

    Sure, you could drive a turbo charged or supercharged car on the track and have a ton of fun, I think my 135i for example is a huge boat load of fun, but in terms of extracting absolute maximum performance I would prefer an N/A motor.

    Now, this is assuming both motors had the SAME power level, for example when comparing my 135i w/ JB3 and our '06 Carrera S. Obviously if we're comparing my ~350hp 135i to my last N/A car which was a 230hp 328i I would me much faster in the 135i, I'm just saying it's more difficult to extract the maximum performance from a car with the lag and shall we say unique power delivery of a forced induction. And yes, superchargers do have lag I've driven plenty of GT500s and 55AMGs and the like, it's not nearly as much as a turbo but it still dulls your throttle response.

    So personally speaking, I'm glad the Black Series will have the M156. I love that motor, but I can definitely see the appeal of the huge power of the new motor as well.

    Oh and I almost forgot, that render of the C63 Black Series looks AMAZING! Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
    In my opinion, based on the experiences I've had on track I think naturally aspirated motors are simply superior to anything with a supercharger or turbo. Now, there are plenty of great turbo charged race cars BUT they are set up for maximum high-RPM power, a street-oriented forced induction system is rarely very well suited to the track.

    Sure, you could drive a turbo charged or supercharged car on the track and have a ton of fun, I think my 135i for example is a huge boat load of fun, but in terms of extracting absolute maximum performance I would prefer an N/A motor.

    Now, this is assuming both motors had the SAME power level, for example when comparing my 135i w/ JB3 and our '06 Carrera S. Obviously if we're comparing my ~350hp 135i to my last N/A car which was a 230hp 328i I would me much faster in the 135i, I'm just saying it's more difficult to extract the maximum performance from a car with the lag and shall we say unique power delivery of a forced induction. And yes, superchargers do have lag I've driven plenty of GT500s and 55AMGs and the like, it's not nearly as much as a turbo but it still dulls your throttle response.
    This dude is explaining what I'm trying to say, The power delivery of M156 will help you in a track while M157 won't.

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