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    • Is an E30 M3 DTM car a match for the new 2015 F80 M3 around the track?

      The E30 M3 released in 1985 was designed with DTM (Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters or German Touring Car) racing in mind. The S14 four-cylinder under the hood was designed for professional racing (as M3 engines traditionally have been) where it excelled. The S55 turbo 3.0 liter inline-6 in today's M3 is obviously a much more powerful motor. It is larger than the 2.0-2.5 liter S14 four-cylinder and also turbocharged whereas the S14 is naturally aspirated.


      The difference on paper is close to 100 horsepower but in practice it is closer to 200 horses as the new M3 is severely underrated. Horsepower is only one part of this story as the E30 M3 DTM car is much lighter and stripped out for the track. The weight difference is in the 1000 pound range based on a 3562 pound curb weight for the F80 M3.

      Can a chassis design that is over three decades old now compete with a brand new and much more powerful M3? Yes. Not only does the 1992 E30 M3 DTM car compete with the 2015 F80 M3, it beats it around the track. Keep in mind that back in the 80's and early 90's DTM cars actually represented their production counterparts.

      The E30 M3 does a 1:09.1 laptime around the Hockenheim to the F80 M3 1:13.1. A four second difference which is simply stunning. The new F80 M3 is a great car but it hardly makes the classic M's obsolete. Namely on the racetrack which the BMW Motorsport division used to design their M3's for.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: Is an E30 M3 DTM car a match for the new 2015 F80 M3 around the track? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 55 Comments
      1. xbox_fan's Avatar
        xbox_fan -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's an interesting point. How different can they really be?
        On the track apparently quite a lot, mainly rear grip, I will look at track time diff once I get back from Normandy Click here to enlarge
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        I know it is someone else's video.
        But you are comparing a full competition racecar to a modern street car.
        It is a fun comparison, but on a track where the racecar lives the streetcar will most likely lose, even to a 30 year old racecar.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It has the S14 engine that came in the E30 M3. This is when the M division produced vehicles that... guess what? Had Motorsport emphasis.
        Not at all the same engine. Same bottom, yes
        Changes to the engine:
        gearbox, diff, gearbox & diff cooling,
        entirely different engine internals, large oil pan or dry sump, airbox & alpha N piggy back, later ECU4 and dual spark packs, 8 injectors, slide throttles, different radiator, different exhaust system



        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        M's are heavier, not offering as good of balance, and not offering motors designed for Motorsport competition. It's pretty easy to understand IMO
        Don't worry, I understood you. I just didn't understand your reasoning and how you got to that conclusion.
        BMW M's are still competing in lots of races. Look at the 24Hours of Spa Franchorchamps, where the Z4 GT3 lost by 7 seconds only to the Audi R8 LMS.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        the E30 M3 and the E30 DTM car are far closer than the E92 M3 and the M3 ALMS car.
        Dunno. The list of changes to make them into rule compliant racecars on both cars is pretty long.

        And the latter are closer than the M4 and M4 DTM car.
        DTM rules have changed a lot since 1990. The cars comply to these new rules.




        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Well if BMW actually raced anything they built today maybe we'd find out? Too bad they don't have that intention.
        Duh?
        Race result 24H Spa Franchorchamps:
        1 Rast/Vanthoor/Winkelhock (Audi R8 LMS ultra) 527 laps
        2 Luhr/Werner/Palttala (BMW Z4) + 7.077s
        3 Mies/Nash/Stippler (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 1 lap
        4 Guilvert/Ortelli/Sandström (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 2 laps
        5 Buhk/Götz/Jaafar (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 4 laps
        6 Hommerson/Machiels/Bertolini/Cioci (Ferrari 458) – 7 laps
        7 Smith/McCaig/Bryant/Sims (BMW Z4) – 7 laps
        8 Wyatt/Rugolo/Lowndes/Piccini (Ferrari 458) – 8 laps
        9 Schneider/Primat/Verdonck (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 9 laps
        10 Abra/Osborne/Poole/Turner (Aston Martin Vantage) – 10 laps

        They are right there in between the other racecars...
        BMW also drives in the United Sportscar Championship, and other endurance championships


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This is a fun comparison and cool to see. I don't know why people get butthurt
        I know it is just a comparison.
        Don't worry, I haven't been butthurt over anything on the Internet for many years.
        Maybe the reason why you are triggering all these reactions is because you (and Sport Auto) are comparing apples and oranges here.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        But you are comparing a full competition racecar to a modern street car.
        A competition race car based on a 30 year old street car with which it shares all of its major components with, yes.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Not at all the same engine. Same bottom, yes
        Changes to the engine:
        gearbox, diff, gearbox & diff cooling,
        entirely different engine internals, large oil pan or dry sump, airbox & alpha N piggy back, later ECU4 and dual spark packs, 8 injectors, slide throttles, different radiator, different exhaust system
        How does this change the fact the engine is a naturally aspirated four-cylinder that comes under the hood of the E30 M3? Does the M4 DTM car use modified S55? No. Does the E30 M3 DTM car use a modified S14? Yes.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        BMW M's are still competing in lots of races. Look at the 24Hours of Spa Franchorchamps, where the Z4 GT3 lost by 7 seconds only to the Audi R8 LMS.
        The same Z4 GT3 that uses a modified S65 engine under the hood of an E92 M3? The same Z4 GT3 that has nothing in common with a Z4M as a new Z4M does not exist?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Dunno. The list of changes to make them into rule compliant racecars on both cars is pretty long.
        You're insulting your own intelligence with this comment.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        DTM rules have changed a lot since 1990. The cars comply to these new rules.
        Do these rules explain why we do not have a Z4M? Do these rules explain why BMW does not race the M4?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Duh?
        Race result 24H Spa Franchorchamps:
        1 Rast/Vanthoor/Winkelhock (Audi R8 LMS ultra) 527 laps
        2 Luhr/Werner/Palttala (BMW Z4) + 7.077s
        3 Mies/Nash/Stippler (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 1 lap
        4 Guilvert/Ortelli/Sandström (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 2 laps
        5 Buhk/Götz/Jaafar (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 4 laps
        6 Hommerson/Machiels/Bertolini/Cioci (Ferrari 458) – 7 laps
        7 Smith/McCaig/Bryant/Sims (BMW Z4) – 7 laps
        8 Wyatt/Rugolo/Lowndes/Piccini (Ferrari 458) – 8 laps
        9 Schneider/Primat/Verdonck (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 9 laps
        10 Abra/Osborne/Poole/Turner (Aston Martin Vantage) – 10 laps
        Ya you aren't understanding that the Z4 races with a motor built for the M3 and that BMW does not actually produce a Z4 with that motor.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Don't worry, I haven't been butthurt over anything on the Internet for many years.
        I wasn't specifically referencing you.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A competition race car based on a 30 year old street car with which it shares all of its major components with, yes.
        You know that this DTM version of the M30 is capable of Nordschleife times of 7min20 - 7min30 , right?
        No other M-car can do this, old or new.
        So not really a fair comparison.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Does the M4 DTM car use modified S55?
        Nope, the P66 is a 4L V8 with air restrictors. DTM regulations do not allow a turbo engine

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You're insulting your own intelligence with this comment.
        I just was not prepared to go through the lists



        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Do these rules explain why we do not have a Z4M? Do these rules explain why BMW does not race the M4?
        Is that what's bothering you? My guess is that this is just marketing from BMW.
        They want to plug the M4 to the German public.
        Rememeber the DTM races and race cars are primarilly targetted to the German public.
        They are supposed to buy the DTM lookalikes.
        Can you even watch DTM races in the USA?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        You know that this DTM version of the M30 is capable of Nordschleife times of 7min20 - 7min30 , right?
        No other M-car can do this, old or new.
        So not really a fair comparison.
        M30?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Nope, the P66 is a 4L V8 with air restrictors. DTM regulations do not allow a turbo engine
        My point exactly. So the E30 M3 DTM car uses a motor you actually find in the E30 M3.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        I just was not prepared to go through the lists
        It's irrelevant as you can't turn the M4 into a DTM car hence my point.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Is that what's bothering you? My guess is that this is just marketing from BMW.
        They want to plug the M4 to the German public.
        Rememeber the DTM races and race cars are primarilly targetted to the German public.
        They are supposed to buy the DTM lookalikes.
        Can you even watch DTM races in the USA?
        What are you talking about? Of course I can watch DTM races. Not only can I watch DTM races in the USA DTM racing is coming to the USA.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        M30
        I mean E30 off course. Argument stands.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        My point exactly. So the E30 M3 DTM car uses a motor you actually find in the E30 M3.
        DTM Regulations. All 3 competitors use a 90 degree 4L V8 by regulation.
        BMW had to specially develop this P66 engine to be able to compete in DTM in 2012
        You must be pleased to know that for 2016 DTM will switch to a 2L 4-cylinder turbo engine setup.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What are you talking about? Of course I can watch DTM races
        How the F*** should I know what sports you can watch across the pond. It was a genuine question.
      1. boostedmaserati's Avatar
        boostedmaserati -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A competition race car based on a 30 year old street car with which it shares all of its major components with, yes.



        How does this change the fact the engine is a naturally aspirated four-cylinder that comes under the hood of the E30 M3? Does the M4 DTM car use modified S55? No. Does the E30 M3 DTM car use a modified S14? Yes.



        The same Z4 GT3 that uses a modified S65 engine under the hood of an E92 M3? The same Z4 GT3 that has nothing in common with a Z4M as a new Z4M does not exist?



        You're insulting your own intelligence with this comment.



        Do these rules explain why we do not have a Z4M? Do these rules explain why BMW does not race the M4?



        Ya you aren't understanding that the Z4 races with a motor built for the M3 and that BMW does not actually produce a Z4 with that motor.



        I wasn't specifically referencing you.
        LMFAO this is epic, pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. People lose track of what BMW M used to be now it's all about racing cars with motors they don't have Forza Horizon style instead of the $#@! they come with.
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        let's not forget the M3 GTR too lol
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        You must be pleased to know that for 2016 DTM will switch to a 2L 4-cylinder turbo engine setup.
        That has been delayed to 2017.
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        That has been delayed to 2017.
        hopefully by then they will at least make the cars sound good and add electric motors in addition to the turbos
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        I see stickys point. He is well aware of the current regulations of DTM. DTM is lame anyways, it is a glorified spec series.

        BMW is currently not racing any car that has as direct relation to a car on their showroom floor. The Z4 GT3, uses an engine based off an engine from another platform. Not to mention the S65 isn't even in production anymore and a coupe Z4M doesn't even exist.

        When BMW nuts up and decides to race the "efficient dynamic" turbo engines, then they will regain some respect in motorsports. Right now, I don't see BMW even attempting to race an S55 powered car or develop a powerplant derived from the S55. The new M4 loses some of the heritage of the old M3 models, if they make no attempt to compete with the car.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        BMW is currently not racing any car that has as direct relation to a car on their showroom floor. The Z4 GT3, uses an engine based off an engine from another platform. Not to mention the S65 isn't even in production anymore and a coupe Z4M doesn't even exist.

        When BMW nuts up and decides to race the "efficient dynamic" turbo engines, then they will regain some respect in motorsports. Right now, I don't see BMW even attempting to race an S55 powered car or develop a powerplant derived from the S55. The new M4 loses some of the heritage of the old M3 models, if they make no attempt to compete with the car.
        Bingo.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        DTM Regulations. All 3 competitors use a 90 degree 4L V8 by regulation.
        BMW had to specially develop this P66 engine to be able to compete in DTM in 2012
        You must be pleased to know that for 2016 DTM will switch to a 2L 4-cylinder turbo engine setup.
        Yes, this is why the F82 M4 has no link to the DTM car unlike the E30 M3. So the E30 M3 is more race car off the showroom floor than the M4 ever will be.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        How the F*** should I know what sports you can watch across the pond. It was a genuine question.
        Well David I added a sports package that lets me watch every F1 and DTM race. Yay!
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        There's a reason E30 M3 in good shape are nowadays in the 50.000 Euro range. Let me give you a hint: it's not the full-blown race character of newer gen M's...
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Tires.