• Is an E30 M3 DTM car a match for the new 2015 F80 M3 around the track?

      The E30 M3 released in 1985 was designed with DTM (Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters or German Touring Car) racing in mind. The S14 four-cylinder under the hood was designed for professional racing (as M3 engines traditionally have been) where it excelled. The S55 turbo 3.0 liter inline-6 in today's M3 is obviously a much more powerful motor. It is larger than the 2.0-2.5 liter S14 four-cylinder and also turbocharged whereas the S14 is naturally aspirated.


      The difference on paper is close to 100 horsepower but in practice it is closer to 200 horses as the new M3 is severely underrated. Horsepower is only one part of this story as the E30 M3 DTM car is much lighter and stripped out for the track. The weight difference is in the 1000 pound range based on a 3562 pound curb weight for the F80 M3.

      Can a chassis design that is over three decades old now compete with a brand new and much more powerful M3? Yes. Not only does the 1992 E30 M3 DTM car compete with the 2015 F80 M3, it beats it around the track. Keep in mind that back in the 80's and early 90's DTM cars actually represented their production counterparts.

      The E30 M3 does a 1:09.1 laptime around the Hockenheim to the F80 M3 1:13.1. A four second difference which is simply stunning. The new F80 M3 is a great car but it hardly makes the classic M's obsolete. Namely on the racetrack which the BMW Motorsport division used to design their M3's for.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Is an E30 M3 DTM car a match for the new 2015 F80 M3 around the track? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 55 Comments
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Don't give up, or take it personal, its a little annoying. Trying to comment on a cool pointless thread, told your opinion is stupid for any number of reasons, comment on a technical thread, your opinion (or facts for that matter) are also stupid if they do not line up. I love this forum, but lately man its been hard to have a good discussion without it turning into garbage. I honestly miss the days of it being fun to discuss stuff here, not sure if its possible to get back there, but it would be nice.
        It seems like every discussion turns to garbage now a days. I can't tell you how many full responses I have written to just delete and not post because it's just useless arguing with Sticky and seriously not worth my time. I have better things to do than get into endless arguments which always seem to end with S65 is the best engine ever, you are poor if you can't build it and that is your problem.

        Time for the neg rep machine to kick in.
      1. Wescuddles's Avatar
        Wescuddles -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Don't give up, or take it personal, its a little annoying. Trying to comment on a cool pointless thread, told your opinion is stupid for any number of reasons, comment on a technical thread, your opinion (or facts for that matter) are also stupid if they do not line up. I love this forum, but lately man its been hard to have a good discussion without it turning into garbage. I honestly miss the days of it being fun to discuss stuff here, not sure if its possible to get back there, but it would be nice.
        I don't think there's any conspiracy here. If your comment is stupid and people keep saying it's stupid... Well then it's probably stupid. Please keep whining there's a lot more "cry baby" pictures on google I can post Click here to enlarge
      1. George Smooth's Avatar
        George Smooth -
        All I got to say is thank Fukc BMW didn't make a E92 M3 CSL. We would never hear the end of it.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The new F80 M3 is a great car but it hardly makes the classic M's obsolete
        This is a totally ridiculous statement.
        You are seriously comparing a gutted race-purpose through and through welded chassis with a roll cage, race diff, uniball race suspension, race gearbox, a functional aero wing and race spec built engine on race tires against a 4-door fully equipped M3 on street tires?
        And saying in the same alinea BMW has lost it's pedigree?
        Sorry man, you lost me there.
        I think the F80 is awesome for staying within 4 seconds of this race car.

        If you want to compare, find a video of this DTM racecar against a standard E30 M3.
        You will be hugely disappointed with the street version, I can tell you that.

        And then there is the price.
        The DTM M3 cost DM 300.000,- at the time.
        Spend that much on an F80 to make it track worthy, including the cost of buying it, and you will drive circles around this DTM E30.
      1. leveraged sellout's Avatar
        leveraged sellout -
        Shocker, stripped-out purpose-built race car with concrete suspension, steel girder roll bars, sticky race slicks, and tons of downforce beats a street car. We should all know by now that this is expected. This is a cool comparison but meaningless.

        Also, this is really the only time the M3 was a real "race car for the road"....the E36 and E46 were nothing of the kind, and both basically had warmed-over series production engines. Yes, I know...a FWD 2 series really sucks. But other than that, I have no problem with what BMW is doing...we already know that CF-intensive cars are coming very soon, weight will drop sharply after that.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        And yawn, take it away Sticky. We are all just pawns on your board anyway. Motorsports is what you say it is on this board. Have a nice day man, I do not want to argue with someone who just wants to tell everyone their opinions are meaningless, talk about taking all the fun out of posting on any given thread when you have to worry about the Mod coming in and telling you your opinion doesn't matter nor is it valid because M = Motorsports. Last time I checked motorsports were about fun, and going fast. But being in loud old vibrating beasts as a daily driver, that is not always fun. But I guess this thread is not about actual comparisons of older fast cars and newer fast cars, its only about whatever you want it to be. I got to get back to work. I am now honestly gun shy about posting about anything these days, even if its something fun and pointless, as Uncle Sticky will just come out to the backyard and tell us we are wrong and stop horseplaying. Weeeeeeeeee
        I don't know why you are getting upset. The M division made things like the E30 M3 for Motorsport. M stands for Motorsport. It isn't about comfort. It's about kicking ass on the racetrack.

        I didn't say your opinion isn't valid. I provided my perspective. If it differs from yours why does that bother you?

        On a racetrack a motorsport derived vehicle such as the E30 M3 DTM car is potent. I expect M cars to be built with roadcourse competition in mind first, not the dragstrip.

        If one wants comfort or whatever else they should look to a different model. The debate about M's direction has raged for a while it really has nothing to do with you or me.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        It seems like every discussion turns to garbage now a days. I can't tell you how many full responses I have written to just delete and not post because it's just useless arguing with Sticky and seriously not worth my time. I have better things to do than get into endless arguments which always seem to end with S65 is the best engine ever, you are poor if you can't build it and that is your problem.

        Time for the neg rep machine to kick in.
        You've turned into a baby because you got your feelings hurt. If you can't take the heat don't stoke the fire.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
        All I got to say is thank Fukc BMW didn't make a E92 M3 CSL. We would never hear the end of it.
        Well I mean they did do the GTS and CRT.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        You are seriously comparing a gutted race-purpose through and through welded chassis with a roll cage, race diff, uniball race suspension, race gearbox, a functional aero wing and race spec built engine on race tires against a 4-door fully equipped M3 on street tires?
        No Sport Auto is and it's a fun comparison. I'm providing my commentary on their comparison which I think was a great idea as it serves several purposes.

        The E30 M3 is 30 years old man. It's nothing like a modern DTM car, nothing. You can go buy an E30 M3 and turn it into what you see here. Yep, they pulled the interior and installed a cage. Wow, that turns any old car into a race car now eh?

        It has the S14 engine that came in the E30 M3. This is when the M division produced vehicles that... guess what? Had Motorsport emphasis.

        You are witnessing two M philosophies compared and the original M philosophy which may be 'old' is hardly outdated or obsolete on the road course as this video shows.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        And saying in the same alinea BMW has lost it's pedigree?
        Sorry man, you lost me there.
        Really? Others seem to understand it. M's are heavier, not offering as good of balance, and not offering motors designed for Motorsport competition. It's pretty easy to understand IMO.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        If you want to compare, find a video of this DTM racecar against a standard E30 M3.
        You will be hugely disappointed with the street version, I can tell you that.
        You can compare the ALMS E92 M3 to the street E92 M3 and make the same point. That stated, the E92 M3 was still built with motorsport competition in mind and there are links between them. Frankly, the E30 M3 and the E30 DTM car are far closer than the E92 M3 and the M3 ALMS car. And the latter are closer than the M4 and M4 DTM car.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Spend that much on an F80 to make it track worthy, including the cost of buying it, and you will drive circles around this DTM E30.
        Well if BMW actually raced anything they built today maybe we'd find out? Too bad they don't have that intention.

        This is a fun comparison and cool to see. I don't know why people get butthurt.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rooringhusky Click here to enlarge
        I guess you haven't been here long enough. We are all pawns to "Uncle Sticky" and Vargas has some great points.
        It's not a surprise here to see you chime in negatively about me rather than discuss the topic. Of course you will blindly agree because you're a hater. It's a consistent pattern and it just rather amuses me you are so angry.

        Maybe you could make a point about the actual topic? You'd rather just obsess about me though. Am I the last thing you think about before you go to bed too?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by leveraged sellout Click here to enlarge
        Also, this is really the only time the M3 was a real "race car for the road"
        So why are people missing this? Nobody else is impressed that a design from 30 years ago can do this?
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You've turned into a baby because you got your feelings hurt. If you can't take the heat don't stoke the fire.
        Lol. Perfect example of when you can't argue anymore or lost your point you start insulting people. Seen it in plenty of threads. I have never once started slinging insults against you as it is a sign the argument is lost. When you lose the argument or discussion you start attacking the person. This is like college 101.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        Lol. Perfect example of when you can't argue anymore or lost your point you start insulting people. Seen it in plenty of threads. I have never once started slinging insults against you as it is a sign the argument is lost. When you lose the argument or discussion you start attacking the person. This is like college 101.
        Um my posts were all on the topic. You came in with your typical negativity. If you'd like to discuss the topic let me know. I have no problem debating an issue forever and I'm not sure when I've ever 'lost' my point.

        You have in several threads taken shots and continue to do so like a spiteful child. Hence your first post in the thread not being on the topic, right? Right. Then your second post being every discussion is 'garbage' right? Then you go on to say it is useless arguing yet you say when I lose my point I insult people? Um, that is exactly what you just did.

        Then you imply neg reps will kick in? For what, debating a topic? The only time neg reps kick in for you is when you do this type of thing. You're destroying the discussion and you're being a hypocrite. If this is your point I'm surprised you ever made it through college as I'm not impressed with your thought process.

        Now, if you want to continue taking the thread off course the neg rep machine sure will kick in. You will keep it on topic but since you are overmatched in any debate on the topic it probably is smart you delete your replies before posting them.
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I have no problem debating an issue forever
        Yeah no $#@!, we all know that by now and it is proven time and time again. Starting to feel like Vargas, it's just a waste of time to even post as we know what will happen in every thread you are involved in which, oh wait is everyone. You should just be happy BMW is releasing more turbo charged engines which should increase your user base instead of going on and on about the S65. But wait without drama this forum would not exist.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        Yeah no $#@!, we all know that by now and it is proven time and time again. Starting to feel like Vargas, it's just a waste of time to even post as we know what will happen in every thread you are involved in which, oh wait is everyone. You should just be happy BMW is releasing more turbo charged engines which should increase your user base instead of going on and on about the S65. But wait without drama this forum would not exist.
        Feel however the hell you want I'm sick of your trolling. Before I open up a thread I know it will be you and rooringhusky with the typical pattern of negativity displayed once again here.

        Here is what is going to happen. You are getting a neg rep for taking the thread off topic pointlessly just so you can poke and prod again as if it accomplishes anything. You are banned from the thread after you see this post. If your sole purpose here is to be a negative influence then you will continue to receive neg reps until you adjust your behavior or you can no longer post. I do not care which happens first.

        I'm interested in the topic and video as I find it incredibly interesting. I don't find your whining and constant obsession with creating negative discussion about me nearly as interesting.

        End of story and back on the topic of the E30 M3 DTM car and the F80 M3 in an interesting track comparison.
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        i think it would be a 2 second difference between the cars if this M4 was equipped with DCT.. maybe 1
      1. xbox_fan's Avatar
        xbox_fan -
        Fun to see an old M beat a new one, but in a recent test in a Swedish magazine the new M3 behaved way worse than the new M4. So this might have been more in favor of "the new" if they used the coupe here?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
        Fun to see an old M beat a new one, but in a recent test in a Swedish magazine the new M3 behaved way worse than the new M4. So this might have been more in favor of "the new" if they used the coupe here?
        It's an interesting point. How different can they really be?
      1. ihc95's Avatar
        ihc95 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's an interesting point. How different can they really be?
        +1. The M4 has a slightly lower center of gravity. That's it.
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        wimp

        this comparison isn't about daily driving. he never said your opinion is meaningless. M does stand for Motorsport. you $#@! a lot you know that?
        Seriously. I am getting tired of Vargus in just about every thread b*tching about sticky. If you don't like it take your business elsewhere.