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    • Centrifugal supercharger vs Turbo: Gintani E9X M3 S65 V8 twin turbo kit dyno results and comparison to the Gintani supercharger kit at the same 7.5 psi of boost

      Here is a good example of parasitic losses and the difference between a centrifugal supercharged power curve and a turbocharged power curve on the same motor. As many of you know Gintani is working hard on its E9X M3 S65 V8 stock DME tuned twin turbo kit and the kit is almost ready to be officially released. Many people will no doubt ask how the twin turbo kit compares to the supercharger kits and now you can see the difference for yourself.

      The turbo kit simply makes more torque and horsepower at the same 7.5 psi of boost. Not having to manually spin a compressor wheel and instead using exhaust gases definitely has its benefits. Those benefits being less parasitic drag on the motor and more torque down low and through the entire engine curve.

      Keep in mind these are 91 octane pump gas figures. Hitting over 600 wheel horsepower on 91 octane without meth injection on a supercharger kit just is not possible (despite a certain company making a claim early on that they did so at 7.5 psi through the stock exhaust system). As the dynograph obviously shows cracking 600 whp on 91 octane at 7.5 psi is something that the turbos can achieve on the S65 V8 and the supercharger can not:


      From 3200 RPM to 4500 RPM The Twin Turbo makes 60+ WHP more vs SC.
      From 4500 RPM to 7000 RPM The Twin Turbo makes 90+ WHP more vs SC.
      From 7000 RPM to 8300 RPM The Twin Turbo makes 50+ WHP more vs SC.
      From 3700 RPM to 4600 RPM The Twin Turbo makes 80+ WTQ more vs SC.
      From 5500 RPM to 6200 RPM The Twin Turbo makes 100+ WTQ more vs SC.
      From 6200 RPM to 7200 RPM The Twin Turbo makes 60+ WTQ more vs SC.
      From 7200 RPM to Redline The Twin Turbo makes 40+ WTQ more vs SC.


      From 3,000 rpm until redline the turbos make more torque. As BimmerBoost stated in impressions of the turbo kit, there is much better response down low and the dyno graph confirms the large torque difference. For those of you who do not like the throttle response or torque of the supercharger low in the rev range, the turbo kit is for you.

      The peak torque difference between the supercharger and turbos is 61 lb-ft of torque at the wheels. On 91 octane, at the same 7.5 psi of boost. That is a healthy difference and it also pays dividends in the peak power figure which shows the turbos with a 31 wheel horsepower advantage.

      More power and more torque through the curve with better throttle response. The turbo era of S65 V8 tuning looks very bright at this early stage. The next step will be seeing how a built motor responds to the turbos and BimmerBoost.com gladly will voluneteer its own built motor M3 to find out. This is excellent work from Gintani who is now clearly separating themselves from the other tuners on the platform.

      Twin turbo 7.5 psi STD correction:


      Twin turbo 7.5 psi SAE correction:




      This article was originally published in forum thread: Gintani Twin Turbo E9X M3 Dyno Graphs and Video started by Sales@Gintani.com View original post
      Comments 159 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        And by greater ease, he means the money flying out of your wallet with greater ease to reach the same power levels.
        You won't reach the same power levels as a built S65. That's kind of the whole point.

        If you want ~700 whp and that is good enough for you (it isn't for me) by all means go with an N54. If you want a larger motor with more capability that revs higher and is paired to a DCT, well, it's kind of a no-brainer.

        I guess you'll have to see what a 700+ whp N54 looks like racing my car.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BigM62 Click here to enlarge
        Beautiful dyno graph. Is th twin turbo kit the same price as the s/c price with installation?
        No, it is much more expensive.

        Someone is going to get a good deal on my SC.
      1. nafoo's Avatar
        nafoo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, it is much more expensive.

        Someone is going to get a good deal on my SC.
        I want a GREAT deal, though.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
        I want a GREAT deal, though.
        I'd love to get the world's best SC kit with room to upgrade to whatever I want to for a giant discount too. Quality hardware costs money. I'm not going to give it away but I'm also not going to haggle over a grand here or there.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You won't reach the same power levels as a built S65. That's kind of the whole point.

        If you want ~700 whp and that is good enough for you (it isn't for me) by all means go with an N54. If you want a larger motor with more capability that revs higher and is paired to a DCT, well, it's kind of a no-brainer.

        I guess you'll have to see what a 700+ whp N54 looks like racing my car.
        Here we go people buckle in!!!! The Great and powerful S65 debate is about to rev up again, I shall just unsubscribe now so I am not blinded by its beauty.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Here we go people buckle in!!!! The Great and powerful S65 debate is about to rev up again, I shall just unsubscribe now so I am not blinded by its beauty.
        Tony I don't know what it is you do not like about the motor or performance. Look, the N54 is great. It isn't an S65 or M motor and it never will be. There is nothing that can be done to turn the N54 into a larger V8 with a higher redline and better torque curve. I mean, just look at that graph at 7.5 psi. The volumetric efficiency is leaps and bounds ahead of the N54.

        That isn't hate or whatever it's simply the truth. I want the E9X platform capable of the most power and highest performance. It is the S65.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Tony I don't know what it is you do not like about the motor or performance. Look, the N54 is great. It isn't an S65 or M motor and it never will be. There is nothing that can be done to turn the N54 into a larger V8 with a higher redline and better torque curve. I mean, just look at that graph at 7.5 psi. The volumetric efficiency is leaps and bounds ahead of the N54.

        That isn't hate or whatever it's simply the truth. I want the E9X platform capable of the most power and highest performance. It is the S65.
        How about you get out of the S65 thread and complete the deal we made?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        How about you get out of the S65 thread and complete the deal we made?
        Um Tony did you want me to throw your article up first so it gets buried behind all the other stories of the day or put yours up last so it stays up first on the front for the longest amount of time giving you the most exposure? The latter was my intention to give you the best possible deal but if you don't want that it certainly doesn't bother me.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Um Tony did you want me to throw your article up first so it gets buried behind all the other stories of the day or put yours up last so it stays up first on the front for the longest amount of time giving you the most exposure? The latter was my intention to give you the best possible deal but if you don't want that it certainly doesn't bother me.
        Emailed
      1. bobS's Avatar
        bobS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
        BTW, anything new on your M3? Any plans for some Gintani goodness?
        I have a evolve supercharger.... thats the only new thing. My next plans might include a bbk, new rear diffusor, bmw performance seats.. Right now i'm just enjoying the car
      1. mjmarovi's Avatar
        mjmarovi -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
        I have a evolve supercharger.... thats the only new thing. My next plans might include a bbk, new rear diffusor, bmw performance seats.. Right now i'm just enjoying the car
        Gotcha, good stuff man
      1. fastgti69's Avatar
        fastgti69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
        I have a evolve supercharger.... thats the only new thing. My next plans might include a bbk, new rear diffusor, bmw performance seats.. Right now i'm just enjoying the car
        I want to enjoy your car too lol.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Still interested to hear how they're boost controlling, someone on M3P said they're not using an EBC so I'm wondering if they're just running spring pressure... Not ideal, but for a stock motor kit it makes sense; just make changes to the Ignition Timing/Fueling for different fuel octanes (91 vs 93 vs 100+ vs E85).


        Was also nice to hear they're still running the OEM fuel system.
        They are not letting anyone mess with boost on the stock internal kit. Some guy will buy it, turn it up, blow the motor, then complain as if it's Gintani's fault.

        Stages 2 and 3 will have an electronic boost controller.

        Gintani will raise the boost on the car for their own testing. 9 psi on stock internals isn't a problem. If someone really wanted to push the motor it would be fun to see what the S65 could do on stock internals.
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        my guess is around 700 hp, that's what has been speculated for the s85
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        How does the C63 'murder' the M3? The M3 is a much better car especially on the track.

        Viper SRT10? Yeah that's definitely a four seat car.

        I'll take my 8500+ rpm V8 with a DCT over anything you mentioned which frankly are not even logical comparisons. You might as well throw an F430 Scuderia in the mix too.
        While I agree with you that the c63 doesn't "murder" the m3 I also strongly disagree by your statement that the m3 is a much better car which is BS. both cars cost the same amount I drove both and walked away with a c63 because I liked it a fair amount better like many others have as well as people walking away liking the m3 better. Neither is a clear winner its all about personal preference. Besides the m156 is a tenth or 2 away from a 8 second pass with better traction they better get to cracking the boost on this.

        The s65 is far superior to an n54 don't get how some arque this. Yes for a "base" level car the n54 is probably the best to come out from the germans outdoing benzes weak N/A 350's and audis 3.0 TFSI but they shouldn't be compared to S models and don't forget the whole chassis/suspension you get with an m3.

        A good example is looking at Terry 135 with a 5862 Twin scroll its making less power than the gintani m3 while running triple the boost (not really comparable with different motors but shows the s65's heads/top end are breathing a lot better) and also using a E30 mix PLUS meth for way more octane then the m3. http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...o-Dyno-Testing
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        While I agree with you that the c63 doesn't "murder" the m3 I also strongly disagree by your statement that the m3 is a much better car which is BS.
        It's not BS. The M3 is better balanced, handles better, lighter, and offers a manual OR DCT option. It's the superior driver's car, no contest really.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        Neither is a clear winner its all about personal preference. Besides the m156 is a tenth or 2 away from a 8 second pass with better traction they better get to cracking the boost on this.
        I agree it ultimately is subjective but there are objective categories where the M3 is better especially as a driver's car. The automatic transmission in the C63 says a lot about its focus. It is more of a blunt instrument to the M3's sharp scalpel.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        A good example is looking at Terry 135 with a 5862 Twin scroll its making less power than the gintani m3 while running triple the boost (not really comparable with different motors but shows the s65's heads/top end are breathing a lot better) and also using a E30 mix PLUS meth for way more octane then the m3.
        Exactly. I mean it's a stupid argument IMO and I don't know why people make it. The N54 is a great bolt on motor and it is great that people tune them. However, a 4.0 liter V8 at over 8000 rpm that makes over 100 hp per liter off the showroom floor is already built to breathe. As you correctly alluded to, a little forced air goes a long way on it.

        Now to see a lot of forced air Click here to enlarge
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's not BS. The M3 is better balanced, handles better, lighter, and offers a manual OR DCT option. It's the superior driver's car, no contest really.



        I agree it ultimately is subjective but there are objective categories where the M3 is better especially as a driver's car. The automatic transmission in the C63 says a lot about its focus. It is more of a blunt instrument to the M3's sharp scalpel.



        Exactly. I mean it's a stupid argument IMO and I don't know why people make it. The N54 is a great bolt on motor and it is great that people tune them. However, a 4.0 liter V8 at over 8000 rpm that makes over 100 hp per liter off the showroom floor is already built to breathe. As you correctly alluded to, a little forced air goes a long way on it.

        Now to see a lot of forced air Click here to enlarge
        Obviously I don't agree with the first statement the c63 to me is a hell of a lot more fun as a street car then the m3 and I extensively drove both of them. You really need to drive a facelift c63 coupe totally different animal then the pre face lift sedans. The steering feel is better on the c63 communicating the road better as all reviews have pointed out and its just a hooligan and awesome fun on the street. While the m3 might be quicker on tighter tracks due to weight ive seen the c63 coupe pull out better times especially if the track has long straights and high speed corners. Regardless its preference if I liked the m3 better I would've bought it and you would've got the c63 if you liked it better so this wont go to far and don't want to muddy up this thread just felt like throwing my 2 cents in ;-p

        Back on topic I'm excited to see where this goes !! Are you dead set on throwing these on?? I mean your motor is already built/sleeved so youd be able to crank these up. Whats the estimated ceiling on these turbos ? GTX 28's im assuming
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        Obviously I don't agree with the first statement the c63 to me is a hell of a lot more fun as a street car then the m3 and I extensively drove both of them. You really need to drive a facelift c63 coupe totally different animal then the pre face lift sedans.
        I've driven it, considered a purchase, and have been in many M156 cars. The M3 to me is the better driver's car and more enjoyable in that respect. The C63 is a great car, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's as good as the M3.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        While the m3 might be quicker on tighter tracks due to weight ive seen the c63 coupe pull out better times especially if the track has long straights and high speed corners
        The only C63 that can beat the M3 around the track is the Black Series and then I'd of course say look at the M3 GTS. That said, the M3 is the lighter and better balanced car.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        Regardless its preference if I liked the m3 better I would've bought it and you would've got the c63 if you liked it better
        Exactly.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        Are you dead set on throwing these on?? I mean your motor is already built/sleeved so youd be able to crank these up. Whats the estimated ceiling on these turbos ? GTX 28's im assuming
        Yes I'm going to throw these on as soon as I set the records I want to set and then sell the kit. I'll be going with GT35R's unless I can fit something bigger. Time to show people just how 'weak' the M3 is Click here to enlarge
      1. Group.america's Avatar
        Group.america -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        my guess is around 700 hp, that's what has been speculated for the s85
        Arent the rods/bearings/studs better than that ?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Group.america Click here to enlarge
        Arent the rods/bearings/studs better than that ?
        If we are going to talk about what the S85 can do they are well into the 700's to the wheels with the SC. So, turbos will do some insane things.