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    • AutoCar reviews the 2015 F80 M3 and states the M3 does not benefit from being turbocharged

      The first drive's from journalists sampling the new 2015 F80 M3 are starting to come in. Yes, the M3 is available as a sedan only but no point whining about the death of the M3 coupe here as that discussion is over with. Steve Sutcliffe of AutoCar got his hands on the the new M car which has slightly more power but much more torque down low from the turbocharged S55B30 (after the turbo lag) than the previous generation naturally aspirated high revving S65 V8. What did he think of it?


      Now on paper the new car of course should be better. BMW promotes it as being much lighter (although it really isn't), more fuel efficient, offering more torque, and more power. This should be a slam dunk right? Well, not so fast.

      He says that you can definitely feel the car has less weight but considering he does not actually weigh it he may just be perceiving a lighter steering feel. This is the problem with subjective analysis without data. The car is definitely well balanced as he shows with how it is to maintain a power on slide with the rear doing exactly what the rear of an M3 should when the driver commands it to.

      Now what he says is a major caveat (which seconds later he rephrases it as a 'decent sized' caveat) is the engine. This is the sticking point for the M purist as well. How is the new turbo motor? He says the sounds is not exactly boring but it is flat. We already knew that from an exhaust clip earlier but it is interesting to note the perception from a journalist inside the cabin. Revving this engine out just is not as exciting as revving out the previous generation car. For some this is a big deal for some it is not. BimmerBoost considers it a major change that takes away a bit of the excitement.

      He states he likes 90% of the car. Its brakes, chassis, handling, interior, exterior, price point, etc. All traditionally strong M3 areas. However, he states the car does not benefit from being turbocharged and BimmerBoost strongly agrees. If the M3 is all about torque now and ECU upgrades to unlock a bit more more power, sure, there are those who are likely new to BMW and who are probably 335i fans that think the turbo motors are great.

      Those who are not new to BMW and loved M cars because they were racecars with daily usability offering Motorsport inspired engines that when surging toward redline offered an experience that only a Ferrari or Porsche could match will not think the change is so great. Looking back at the E9X M3, E46 M3, E36 M3, and E30 M3, BMW delivered the experience of high revs and razor sharp response that nobody else could match with a manual transmission and four seats. That's right, nobody.

      Some may consider the F80 M3 progress and adore it. Others will consider it a sign BMW has lost its way and went from producing special M cars to simply great M cars. Where do you stand?

      'Come on, the engine is at the center of every M car, surely. And the engine in this particular M car is, whilst amazingly efficient and bursting with torque, it doesn't have that rip to it that a real proper M engine has... had in the past. But I'm afraid that now seems like it is a thing of the past.'

      It's nice to see a journalist who actually gets it.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: AutoCar reviews M3 and S55 started by BlackJetE90OC View original post
      Comments 132 Comments
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes, the standard F80 M3 will beat the E92 M3.
        That is all that matters my friend. That is all.
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Sutcliffe is saying the car doesn't benefit from being FI. What he is eluding to is the new chassis could be just as quick with a NA motor and still have the throttle response the M3 is known for.
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        That is all that matters my friend. That is all.
        How the new powerplant feels means absolutely nothing?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        That is all that matters my friend. That is all.
        No, it isn't that simple.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Somewhat. But "feels" is SO subjective. I like revving out to 8k, sure. I've done it in my last 2 boosted cars. Is it a deal breaker if I'm not getting some "feeling" at 8k no. There must be compromise. You're not going to get the low end torque of the S55 in a naturally aspirated car. So.... If BMW can minimize lag and still keep the 7500 redline reported on the S55. That's a win for me. Obviously not for everyone but for me it is. I passed on the E92 M3 a couple of years ago. I preferred my 335i. I'd actually consider the F82 though.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        How the new powerplant feels means absolutely nothing?
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        Somewhat. But "feels" is SO subjective. I like revving out to 8k, sure. I've done it in my last 2 boosted cars. Is it a deal breaker if I'm not getting some "feeling" at 8k no. There must be compromise. You're not going to get the low end torque of the S55 in a naturally aspirated car. So.... If BMW can minimize lag and still keep the 7500 redline reported on the S55. That's a win for me. Obviously not for everyone but for me it is. I passed on the E92 M3 a couple of years ago. I preferred my 335i. I'd actually consider the F82 though.
        The problem is it has been reported by a couple publications the last 1,500 rpm is thin. Leading one to short shift. Short shifting at ~6,000 rpm pretty much means the 7,600 redline is artificial. And couple that with throttle response that will never be the same as a NA engine. If you plan on using this car only for daily driving, then the S55 should be perfect. As you said it has a lot of low end torque.
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        Somewhat. But "feels" is SO subjective.
        I definitely agree with this. It is very subjective and the S55 is some peoples wet dream.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Agree with this. Hopefully BMW is not stretching the truth on the redline. Also, an N/A car will be easier to drive and prob more fun on a road course than a F/I car. Agree. Does that mean that the base model M4 won't beat the base model e92 M3? No. Just for the fan boys that think the S65 will decimate all and is the greatest engine ever built.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        The problem is it has been reported by a couple publications the last 1,500 rpm is thin. Leading one to short shift. Short shifting at ~6,000 rpm pretty much means the 7,600 redline is artificial. And couple that with throttle response that will never be the same as a NA engine. If you plan using this car only for daily driving, then the S55 should be perfect. As you said it has a lot of low end torque.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        HAHA! yup. I'm a huge fan of the data so far. I can't wait to go and test drive one. The M2 is sounding more and more like it's going to be a disappointment so an F80 M3 may be my first M car. Or I might pick up the RB'd 335is for sale on here Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        I definitely agree with this. It is very subjective and the S55 is some peoples wet dream.
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        Sutcliffe is saying the car doesn't benefit from being FI. What he is eluding to is the new chassis could be just as quick with a NA motor and still have the throttle response the M3 is known for.
        Actually the car does benefit from being FI...

        Also, eluding to different power plants is nice and all but you could say 'but if it had XXX engine it would be XXX' all day long.

        If they used electric motors to spin the turbine shafts and used variable geometry turbos they could have very close to the exact same NA instant throttle response with the FI gains. But guess what, they didn't. Fantasizing about what BMW could have done is a waste of time imo...

        Personally I wish they kept the high reving V8 for the m3 and then offered an M4 with the same V8 but with FI or called it the m3 GTS or whatever they want to for this generation.



        edit: people $#@!ed when they went from I6 to v8 saying it was the end of a generation. now they go back to the I6 and add in FI and it's an abomination. If they never went to the V8 and went straight to FI what would people be saying now?
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Just read this, very interesting. Yet very early.

        Speaking at the international launch of the all-new F80/82 M3 and M4 in Portugal over the weekend, BMW M Division Head of Product Management Carsten Pries told motoring.com.au it was “foreseeable” that a four-cylinder engine could power the next generation of the iconic model.
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        Actually the car does benefit from being FI...
        With positives, brings some negatives. I guess for Sutcliffe the negatives out weighed the positives (more torque, better fuel mileage, easier on the enviroment). But that was just his feeling anyways.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        If they used electric motors to spin the turbine shafts and used variable geometry turbos they could have the exact same NA instant throttle response with the FI gains. But guess what, they didn't. Fantasizing about what BMW could have done is a waste of time imo.
        Agree, just think that is down the road. The way a car like the P1 uses its battery power for torque fill is uncanny. Virtually eliminate all turbo lag. It will be a few years before that tech trickles down to less expensive models.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        Personally I wish they kept the high reving V8 for the m3 and then offered an M4 with the same V8 but with FI or called it the m3 GTS or whatever they want to for this generation.
        Spot on, give people a choice. Like Ford with the Boss 302 and GT500. Porsche with the GT3 and Turbo.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        Spot on, give people a choice. Like Ford with the Boss 302 and GT500. Porsche with the GT3 and Turbo.
        best idea I've heard yet. would lead to some epic battles too.
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        this is kind of like the same debate that happened when the F1X M5/6 came out, with complaints of BMW going TT V8 and ditching the NA V10.

        the new M3/4 is the better car, period. just like the new M5/6 is better. the f1x isn't so "unresponsive" compared to the e6x as everyone assumed it would be, i bet the same is true about the M3/4. really the problem is with the car coming with all of these aids and without that high redline screaming out you and hydraulic steering the car feels soulless. the better driver's car will always be the E9x M3 the same way the better driver's M5/6 will always be the E6x. we don't know yet about the aftermarket, maybe a traitor at BMW will sell the codes to someone.

        maybe the S55 could be the german 2jz Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        The problem is it has been reported by a couple publications the last 1,500 rpm is thin. Leading one to short shift. Short shifting at ~6,000 rpm pretty much means the 7,600 redline is artificial. And couple that with throttle response that will never be the same as a NA engine. If you plan on using this car only for daily driving, then the S55 should be perfect. As you said it has a lot of low end torque.
        It's like you are reading my mind.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        the new M3/4 is the better car, period. just like the new M5/6 is better.
        No the aren't.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        maybe the S55 could be the german 2jz Click here to enlarge
        oh no he didn't! Click here to enlarge
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No the aren't.
        all around, yes they are including performance stock for stock
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        oh no he didn't! Click here to enlarge
        oh $#@!!
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        this is kind of like the same debate that happened when the F1X M5/6 came out, with complaints of BMW going TT V8 and ditching the NA V10.
        For me it is much different. Two completely different cars. I don't mind the M5 being FI, that car is purely a street car (freeway missile). The S85 is gone, but definitely not forgotten.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        maybe the S55 could be the german 2jz Click here to enlarge
        Ha...I laughed.