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    • No 4Matic all wheel drive W205 C63 (C55)? AMG responds to the BMW M3/M4 weight loss with rear wheel drive C63 AMG

      Interesting development here coming out of the North American International Auto show in Detroit. Various sources are all reporting the same news that the head of AMG Tobias Moers stated the W205 C63 AMG would be rear wheel drive. Why is this interesting? Well the new 2014 W205 C300 and C400 are 4Matic only in the USA. There is no rear wheel drive W205 C-Class model for sale in the United States (although rear wheel drive models apparently will come for the next model year) and the E63 AMG and CLS63 along with the entry level 45 AMG are also sold in the USA as 4Matic only.

      At the end of last month reports surface that the W205 C63 also would not get a dual clutch transmission. This would make a lot of sense if the vehicle was all wheel drive as Mercedes would likely have the same torque concerns they do (and Audi as well) with sending a good amount of V8 twin turbo torque through a dual clutch transmission to all four wheels. We already know the engine is a 4.0 liter M177 V8 but the V8 twin turbo was confirmed with Tobias Moers on record. This motor also means the C55 name may be coming back since the motor will not be shared with the 63 AMG's.

      So why no all wheel drive? The first reason is likely the weight. The CLS63 AMG and E63 AMG both perform very well with all wheel drive but they are about 130 pounds heavier than their rear wheel drive counterparts. That is a significant amount of weight especially with most of it coming over the front wheels and especially with the main rival from BMW (M3/M4) coming in at 3306 pounds.

      With such a relatively low curb weight Mercedes would simply not be able to get close including all wheel drive, a twin turbo V8, and an automatic transmission. This despite the C-Class targeting weight savings of up to 220 pounds. Those 220 pounds though were not stated as to on what engine model, transmission, or driveline only as a maximum weight loss figure. Mercedes likely omitted specifying the weight savings in comparison to what previous model so that we would not be able to figure out the curb weight before they announced it. Not to mention they are still working on the C63.

      It is a foregone conclusion that if the C63 had 4Matic it would not be as playful as a chassis as the M3 and would be prone to far more understeer. Mercedes seems intent on making the C63 more of a drivers car and will include the trick electronic differential from the SLS Black Series. That means the C63 should be more capable of competing with the M3 in balance and driving excitement.

      Tobias Moers agrees stating, "You can have a lot of fun with the car on track with our 4Matic system, but I think the C-Class is more dedicated to fun-to-drive, more sporty, more race track--sometimes a little more sideways. That's the reason it's a rear-wheel drive car."

      This also begs the question, if rear wheel drive why no dual clutch transmission? Perhaps the answer is Mercedes upping the torque significantly once the M3/M4 specs were released. This is the danger in BMW releasing their next generation numbers before Mercedes. Due to the turbo era however it is not the risk it used to be as BMW will simply offer a performance package option if they need to. Then Mercedes will likely fire back with their own. They both win as they both will make more money on the option which they are well aware of.

      Additionally, it is important to note Tobias Moers did not state there never would be an all wheel drive C63. Will one come later as it did with the E63 refresh? Will they bump the power and do a C63 AMG S? Who knows, but the C63 just became a much more substantial rival for the M3. With approximately 130 less pounds to carry around than if it had the 4Matic system, it may just get close the CLA45 AMG's curb weight of 3600 pounds. It is practically a certainty it will be lighter than the W204 C63 AMG 3992 pounds. If Mercedes does lighten it by 220 pounds as they claim have been able to with the W205, that gives us 3772 pounds. We will have to wait and see.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: Next C63 Confirmed RWD started by BlackJetE90OC View original post
      Comments 57 Comments
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think you mean E550.
        You, of all people, should know the S6 can run, or beat, the E63. (especially when tuned)
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        You, of all people, should know the S6 can run, or beat, the E63. (especially when tuned)
        Yes. But you, of all people, should know the RS6 is positioned against the E63 and the RS7 against the CLS63 AMG in their respective lineups. Due to there not being an RS6 sedan this time around around and no RS6 model period in the United States the RS7 is the natural RS6/E63 competitor in this market.

        Your take is like saying the a tuned CLS550 is the RS7 competitor.

        I think I'm quite aware of what is what.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think you mean E550.
        No, I meant E63. A6 competes with the E550.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        No, I meant E63. A6 competes with the E550.
        That's just not correct in how they are positioned. See my explanation above.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        That's just not correct in how they are positioned. See my explanation above.
        If that is incorrect then what would be the correct model correlation between Audi and Mercedes ? The Mercedes E line doesn't compete with the Audi 8's or the 4's - so if they don't compete with the 6's then what do they compete with ? And please don't tell me there is no competition cause I've driven the E63 and S6 back to back and I can tell you that the S6 is a much better car in every regard for less money.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        If that is incorrect then what would be the correct model correlation between Audi and Mercedes ? The Mercedes E line doesn't compete with the Audi 8's or the 4's - so if they don't compete with the 6's then what do they compete with ? And please don't tell me there is no competition cause I've driven the E63 and S6 back to back and I can tell you that the S6 is a much better car in every regard for less money.
        I'm not saying the car doesn't compare I'm stating how the models are slotted up.

        M6 - CLS63 - RS7
        650i - CLS550 - S7
        640i - CLS350 - A6

        The RS7 and the E63 are the most logical competitors as the AMG and RS models go head to head. There is no RS6 in the United States but there is in the ROW and that is clearly the E63 competitor. The S6/S7 is the middle range offering as is the E550/CLS550.

        It's quite clear really.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'm not saying the car doesn't compare I'm stating how the models are slotted up.

        M6 - CLS63 - RS7
        650i - CLS550 - S7
        640i - CLS350 - A6

        The RS7 and the E63 are the most logical competitors as the AMG and RS models go head to head. There is no RS6 in the United States but there is in the ROW and that is clearly the E63 competitor. The S6/S7 is the middle range offering as is the E550/CLS550.

        It's quite clear really.
        I don't think it's clear at all. The RS cars trounce the regular AMG models and your forgetting about the Black Series cars that are really the direct competition to the RS models. Only difference is that Audi smartly makes more RS versions than AMG does black series'.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        The RS cars trounce the regular AMG models
        How so?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        nd your forgetting about the Black Series cars that are really the direct competition to the RS models.
        No, the black series is its own thing entirely. The Black Series cars are track focused, stripped, lightweight performance models. It's like an M3 GTS or CSL model.

        The set up is quite clear to me. I don't see how the S6 and E63 are competitors but the RS7 and CLS63 aren't. It's actually a very definitive hierarchy by each manufacturer clearly positioning themselves against their rivals.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge

        I think I'm quite aware of what is what.
        Apparently not. Click here to enlarge
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Here Sticky, let this explain it to you, so you can get it right.

        http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4

        If the next C63 is a dime more than the current car, and it doesn't offer both a V8 TT and a DCT, I'll just buy the S6 instead.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Here Sticky, let this explain it to you, so you can get it right.

        http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4

        If the next C63 is a dime more than the current car, and it doesn't offer both a V8 TT and a DCT, I'll just buy the S6 instead.
        I have it right: 'The S6 is 98-hp less murderous than the next-most-powerful contender, the E63.'

        They used the S6 in that comparison because the RS6/RS7 was not available yet: "The as-yet-unseen RS6 would be a better challenger to the steroidal M5, but it’s not out yet and may never come to the States. So, we figured, why not give the S6 a chance in the lion’s den. After all, this could be the hottest size-6 Audi we ever get."

        Thanks for making my point for me. You should read your own links.
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        If the next C63 is a dime more than the current car, and it doesn't offer both a V8 TT and a DCT, I'll just buy the S6 instead.
        Go buy the S6 already.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I have it right: 'The S6 is 98-hp less murderous than the next-most-powerful contender, the E63.'

        They used the S6 in that comparison because the RS6/RS7 was not available yet: "The as-yet-unseen RS6 would be a better challenger to the steroidal M5, but it’s not out yet and may never come to the States. So, we figured, why not give the S6 a chance in the lion’s den. After all, this could be the hottest size-6 Audi we ever get."

        Thanks for making my point for me. You should read your own links.

        Are you illiterate?
        The S6 won the comparison in that article.
        Stock Vs Stock, the S6 is a competitor, or even superior, to the 2013 E63. Especially when you factor in the DCT.

        So, YES, the S6 is a direct competitor to the E63.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        Go buy the S6 already.
        Nah. I'll be smart and wait for the C63 to make a decision.
        But, thanks for you suggestion. Click here to enlarge
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Are you illiterate?
        The S6 won the comparison in that article.
        Stock Vs Stock, the S6 is a competitor, or even superior, to the 2013 E63. Especially when you factor in the DCT.

        So, YES, the S6 is a direct competitor to the E63.
        Who the f*ck are you talking to? Sticky?
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        Who the f*ck are you talking to? Sticky?
        Wrong quoted. Edited.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Are you illiterate?
        The S6 won the comparison in that article.
        Stock Vs Stock, the S6 is a competitor, or even superior, to the 2013 E63. Especially when you factor in the DCT.

        So, YES, the S6 is a direct competitor to the E63.
        The S6 could be compared to a Ferrari 458 too in an article and win, so what? Articles in magazines decide what competes with what now?

        THEY USED THE S6 BECAUSE THE RS6/RS7 WERE NOT AVAILABLE YET. Look at the model year of the E63 referenced. The article mentions the rear wheel drive traction of the E63. Um, it's 2014 now and the E63 isn't rear wheel drive.

        The S6/S7 are not the E63/CLS63 competitors from Audi. The RS6/RS7 clearly are. There is no debate, sorry.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The S6 could be compared to a Ferrari 458 too in an article and win, so what? Articles in magazines decide what competes with what now?

        THEY USED THE S6 BECAUSE THE RS6/RS7 WERE NOT AVAILABLE YET. Look at the model year of the E63 referenced. The article mentions the rear wheel drive traction of the E63. Um, it's 2014 now and the E63 isn't rear wheel drive.

        The S6/S7 is not the E63/CLS63 competitor from Audi. The RS6/RS7 clearly are. There is no debate, sorry.
        Do you think I'm not aware of all these facts ???
        Why is it so hard for you to grasp the fact that if the S6 is considered the better buy over the E63 by Car and Driver, and many others, then the S6 actually IS a competitor to the E63 ???

        I would never buy the RS7 because it's deletes the DCT for a slushbox, it's heavier than the S6, the premium charged for basically the same car is ridiculous, and the rear headroom is sacrificed for "show".
        So, NO, I do not consider the RS7 a good buy, or a direct competitor to the E63.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Do you think I'm not aware of all these facts ???
        Then I don't know why you are quoting outdated articles or seeing it for yourself.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Why is it so hard for you to grasp the fact that if the S6 is considered the better buy over the E63 by Car and Driver, and many others, that the S6 actually IS a competitor to the E63.
        The Kia Rio could be considered better than the E63 by Car and Driver and it wouldn't change anything. It certainly would not change that the RS6/RS7 are the models Audi positions against the E63/CLS63 and the M5/M6.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        I would never buy the RS7 because it's deletes the DCT for a slushbox, it's heavier than the S6, the premium charged for basically the same car is ridiculous, and the rear headroom is sacrificed for "show".
        I'm not asking you to buy one.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        So, NO, I do not consider the RS7 a good buy, or a direct competitor to the E63.
        Ok. But it is the direct competitor.

        P.S. Car and Driver did a comparison featuring the RS6 sedan when it was offered. Go ahead and use Google to see what from Mercedes and BMW they put it up against. I hope your head doesn't explode.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I have it right: 'The S6 is 98-hp less murderous than the next-most-powerful contender, the E63.'

        They used the S6 in that comparison because the RS6/RS7 was not available yet: "The as-yet-unseen RS6 would be a better challenger to the steroidal M5, but it’s not out yet and may never come to the States. So, we figured, why not give the S6 a chance in the lion’s den. After all, this could be the hottest size-6 Audi we ever get."

        Thanks for making my point for me. You should read your own links.
        That 98 hp difference is made up in spades by the brilliant dct in the S6 not to mention how much more efficient it is and the fact that it has a torque vectoring sports differential out back. You can say what you want about which models are competition for one another but the fact is the S6 is a better car for less. Audi obviously priced it that way to pull Amg buyers. And you are forgetting about the regular old A6 in your comparisons. If the Audi RS models are a direct competitor for the amg's, and the S6 competes with the E550, then what's the competition for the A6??
        if you think that is accurate then go drive an E550 and an S6 back to back and then come back and tell me which one you would rather have. Because the E550 is a fat pig luxury cruiser and the S6 will trounce it in every way...starting with the gorgeous diamond stitched seats and ending with the superior more driver focused chassis. Comparing the two is nothing short of ignorant.