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    • 6-speed supercharged E92 M3 S65 V8 battle - ESS VT2-650 versus Gintani Stage 2 roll on race

      Finally some ESS versus Gintani supercharged M3 action! These videos are very hard to come by as a video like this can sway perception greatly as to real world performance (dynograph racing is for kids) between the kits. That is why you will not see it on the front page of certain websites. The ESS VT2-650 kit has been claimed to put out over 600 horsepower at the wheels but you do not race graphs, you race cars.


      Here are the specs for both vehicles, the Gintani supercharged M3 is the camera car:

      Mod List - ESS M3
      SGM 08 BMW M3
      ESS VT2- 650 - 8 PSI
      Challenge Race X- Pipe
      Eisenmann Rear Section
      KW V3 Coilovers
      Volk TE37 9.5/10.5 + Yokohama AD08 265/295
      Brembo BBK


      Mod List - Gintani M3 - CAMERA CAR
      MR 08 BMW M3
      Gintani Stage 2 - 7.5 PSI
      RPI X-Pipe
      OEM Rear Section
      H&R Race
      RD Sways
      RPI Scoops
      Toyo R888 275 only rears
      Style 219 OEM Wheels

      Now there are no honks in the video so it appears the Gintani car gets a jump. Regardless, there is no denying it pulls away definitively as which point the ESS supercharged car just gives up and gets off the gas. What explains this results considering the Gintani car has a 7.5 psi boost pulley versus 8.0 for the ESS VT2-650?

      First of all, tuning is an important difference. Gintani Stage 2 kits are usually custom tuned to the application. ESS VT2-650 kits come with a canned tune. One can of course get a custom tune but the actual kit is one size fits all. These are simply different approaches and have their merits but for maximum performance a custom tune tailored to the vehicle and fuel is always preferable.

      Secondly, the Gintani Stage 2 kit features a revised manifold with improved flow. When trying to make the system as efficient as possible the manifold design of course is important. A freer flowing manifold should show less boost.

      Gintani also has a Vortech T-Trim option which is a slightly larger blower capable of more CFM than the V3si ESS uses. Again, pros and cons here as the self-lubricated V3si is very nice from a maintenance perspective and the T-Trim requires tapping the oil pan for lubrication. A pro of tapping the oil pan is the oil can be changed and cooled more easily. A con is if something were to go mechanically wrong with the blower a small piece of metal has a chance (however slim) of entering the cars oil system. Again, pros and cons and there are blower choices available for the Gintani kit although one is locked in with the ESS kit.

      Keep in mind these cars not running meth and the Gintani Stage 2+ setup can run higher boost and more aggressive timing with a custom meth tune which ESS does not offer with their kit.

      Hopefully we see more videos like this as there has been far too much dyno racing by fanboys.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS 650 vs GINTANI STAGE 2 (no meth) both 6 sp started by Wagdaddy View original post
      Comments 90 Comments
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        Yes, those are the graphs that the Gintani Stage 2 car claimed 603whp with Click here to enlarge I hope they didn't see the graphs and just went off of what they were told. At this event, the other ESS-650 car did 525whp, mine with a one-off set of stock hybrids did 505whp so the ESS-650 car should've really won the event but the prize was given to the Gintani car for the spiked graph lol its ok, its all good times but things like this (miscommunication) can cause some nasty online arguments
        I agree. The runs do seem low for all of the supercharged cars though on a dynojet. Our level 1 kit gets around that whp.

        Attachment 32671
      1. e92livin's Avatar
        e92livin -
        Dzenno, first off I am not ashamed of the numbers I put down considering the conditions and the numbers everyone else was hitting that day lol. secondly I cannot explain to you myself how I hit the 603whp it is weird for my car @ 7.5psi to hit that number to be honest. The way the car performs compared to these dyno #s are totally different. As of the third gear accusations it was a honest mistake on my end so ALL THE DYNOS PULLS WERE DONE IN 4TH GEAR. Just to clarify things, I want accurate results like any one else and it doesn't make a difference to me. This race I had with the ESS 650 car is a perfect example of dyno results vs real life results. I will be doing another dyno-pull shortly, partially because I want to see my WTQ numbers and I want to see what my car puts down consistently on 94 and 110. On a side note this is my first time on a dyno period and the spike wasn't something I was use to seeing so who knows what my car makes. Anyway i'll see everyone who is local at the next event.. I'm out.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e92livin Click here to enlarge
        Dzenno, first off I am not ashamed of the numbers I put down considering the conditions and the numbers everyone else was hitting that day lol. secondly I cannot explain to you myself how I hit the 603whp it is weird for my car @ 7.5psi to hit that number to be honest. The way the car performs compared to these dyno #s are totally different. As of the third gear accusations it was a honest mistake on my end so ALL THE DYNOS PULLS WERE DONE IN 4TH GEAR. Just to clarify things, I want accurate results like any one else and it doesn't make a difference to me. This race I had with the ESS 650 car is a perfect example of dyno results vs real life results. I will be doing another dyno-pull shortly, partially because I want to see my WTQ numbers and I want to see what my car puts down consistently on 94 and 110. On a side note this is my first time on a dyno period and the spike wasn't something I was use to seeing so who knows what my car makes. Anyway i'll see everyone who is local at the next event.. I'm out.
        Yeah I would visit another shop and do some runs in 4th and 5th to verify your past results. Any numbers that have a spike or just don't make sense toss them.

        At our shop we have a welding table about 15 feet away and if we do a run while they are welding we get crazy spikes showing 1500-2000 hp.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e92livin Click here to enlarge
        Dzenno, first off I am not ashamed of the numbers I put down considering the conditions and the numbers everyone else was hitting that day lol. secondly I cannot explain to you myself how I hit the 603whp it is weird for my car @ 7.5psi to hit that number to be honest. The way the car performs compared to these dyno #s are totally different. As of the third gear accusations it was a honest mistake on my end so ALL THE DYNOS PULLS WERE DONE IN 4TH GEAR. Just to clarify things, I want accurate results like any one else and it doesn't make a difference to me. This race I had with the ESS 650 car is a perfect example of dyno results vs real life results. I will be doing another dyno-pull shortly, partially because I want to see my WTQ numbers and I want to see what my car puts down consistently on 94 and 110. On a side note this is my first time on a dyno period and the spike wasn't something I was use to seeing so who knows what my car makes. Anyway i'll see everyone who is local at the next event.. I'm out.
        No worries man. Your car is beast. If you're up for it I'll most likely be on a dyno tomorrow night in Oakville (Trafalgar/QEW) at TAG Racecraft. Its a Dynojet and a very legit one that I now use all the time for our N54 pro tunes. I'll be there working on a 335is and his meth tune. Shop charges $90 for 3 pulls or $100/hr. I can help you get the numbers finalized, just let me know...

        In terms of the mobile dyno from the show it seemed to be reading on average about 15-20whp less than an average Dynojet out there.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        lol, $#@! the dyno, leave the dynos for tuning changes and race results for real life Click here to enlarge
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Agree!
      1. e92livin's Avatar
        e92livin -
        I might wanna make my way up there tomorrow Dzenno.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Finally some ESS versus Gintani supercharged M3 action! These videos are very hard to come by as a video like this can sway perception greatly as to real world performance (dynograph racing is for kids) between the kits. That is why you will not see it on the front page of certain websites. The ESS VT2-650 kit has been claimed to put out over 600 horsepower at the wheels but you do not race graphs, you race cars.

        Click here to enlarge

        Here are the specs for both vehicles, the Gintani supercharged M3 is the camera car:

        Mod List - ESS M3
        SGM 08 BMW M3
        ESS VT2- 650 - 8 PSI
        Challenge Race X- Pipe
        Eisenmann Rear Section
        KW V3 Coilovers
        Volk TE37 9.5/10.5 + Yokohama AD08 265/295
        Brembo BBK


        Mod List - Gintani M3 - CAMERA CAR
        MR 08 BMW M3
        Gintani Stage 2 - 7.5 PSI
        RPI X-Pipe
        OEM Rear Section
        H&R Race
        RD Sways
        RPI Scoops
        Toyo R888 275 only rears
        Style 219 OEM Wheels

        Now there are no honks in the video so it appears the Gintani car gets a jump. Regardless, there is no denying it pulls away definitively as which point the ESS supercharged car just gives up and gets off the gas. What explains this results considering the Gintani car has a 7.5 psi boost pulley versus 8.0 for the ESS VT2-650?

        First of all, tuning is an important difference. Gintani Stage 2 kits are usually custom tuned to the application. ESS VT2-650 kits come with a canned tune. One can of course get a custom tune but the actual kit is one size fits all. These are simply different approaches and have their merits but for maximum performance a custom tune tailored to the vehicle and fuel is always preferable.

        Secondly, the Gintani Stage 2 kit features a revised manifold with improved flow. When trying to make the system as efficient as possible the manifold design of course is important. A freer flowing manifold should show less boost.

        Gintani also has a Vortech T-Trim option which is a slightly larger blower capable of more CFM than the V3si ESS uses. Again, pros and cons here as the self-lubricated V3si is very nice from a maintenance perspective and the T-Trim requires tapping the oil pan for lubrication. A pro of tapping the oil pan is the oil can be changed and cooled more easily. A con is if something were to go mechanically wrong with the blower a small piece of metal has a chance (however slim) of entering the cars oil system. Again, pros and cons and there are blower choices available for the Gintani kit although one is locked in with the ESS kit.

        Keep in mind these cars not running meth and the Gintani Stage 2+ setup can run higher boost and more aggressive timing with a custom meth tune which ESS does not offer with their kit.

        Hopefully we see more videos like this as there has been far too much dyno racing by fanboys.

      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
        Seems like Gintani builds some serious cars. Nice kill!, but I've also heard they've blown quite a few motors as well as their in-shop tuning can be crazy aggressive. Some of their video's on youtube prove it. I just hope they are shop cars and not customer cars as I'd be pissed if they just sat there and kept my car at redline to do an exhaust video.....
        Brainwashed much? I can tell you about a few blown ESS motors too. EVERYONE has blown motors.

        The video you are referring to discusses shortcoming in the S65 V8 factory oil system. Rod bearings are a problem that is not Gintani's fault or ESS's fault or anyone's fault by BMW's.

        Regarding my exhaust video, it's a built motor car putting down more than what anyone else has having NOT been run to redline or in even in kill mode yet so I don't think you know what you're talking about. I always tell Alex to up the boost and shut everyone the hell up but he plays it too safe just because of crap like this.

        I told him to pop my stock motor before building it but it never happened, why is that?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        The same way a 625 kit hits 606 whp on a dynojet out of the box Click here to enlarge
        FREAKING AMEN
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WNF_335i Click here to enlarge
        the two suoercharged m3s you seen at bimmercruise are the same ones running in this video. my buddy with the gintani rstage two m3 put out 495 and 491 first two runs i think he said they were third gear pulls, his last pull on the dyno was a fourth gear pull and put out 603
        This is what I heard as well (people PM interesting stuff all the time) so hope people understand how dyno numbers can vary even same day.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e92livin Click here to enlarge
        Dzenno, first off I am not ashamed of the numbers I put down considering the conditions and the numbers everyone else was hitting that day lol. secondly I cannot explain to you myself how I hit the 603whp it is weird for my car @ 7.5psi to hit that number to be honest. The way the car performs compared to these dyno #s are totally different. As of the third gear accusations it was a honest mistake on my end so ALL THE DYNOS PULLS WERE DONE IN 4TH GEAR. Just to clarify things, I want accurate results like any one else and it doesn't make a difference to me. This race I had with the ESS 650 car is a perfect example of dyno results vs real life results. I will be doing another dyno-pull shortly, partially because I want to see my WTQ numbers and I want to see what my car puts down consistently on 94 and 110. On a side note this is my first time on a dyno period and the spike wasn't something I was use to seeing so who knows what my car makes. Anyway i'll see everyone who is local at the next event.. I'm out.
        You don't need to play dyno number games or even explain yourself. Your car actually doing real world runs says everything that needs to be said.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        @e92livin where is the video of the other runs?
      1. mjmarovi's Avatar
        mjmarovi -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Brainwashed much? I can tell you about a few blown ESS motors too. EVERYONE has blown motors.

        The video you are referring to discusses shortcoming in the S65 V8 factory oil system. Rod bearings are a problem that is not Gintani's fault or ESS's fault or anyone's fault by BMW's.

        Regarding my exhaust video, it's a built motor car putting down more than what anyone else has having NOT been run to redline or in even in kill mode yet so I don't think you know what you're talking about. I always tell Alex to up the boost and shut everyone the hell up but he plays it too safe just because of crap like this.

        I told him to pop my stock motor before building it but it never happened, why is that?
        I was not referring to your car as I know your car is built, and you took the damn video of your car. I am referring to the blue e36 I believe it is in their shop. Nothing wrong with being aggressive, just saying that's what I found when shopping around for M3 performance before purchasing my car. I don't know why they didn't blow your stock motor, you tell us....woulda been cool to see a video of it being pushed to it's limits IMO.

        I also was not referencing the video they made to clearly point out the cylinder 5 issue with the motor.

        It does seem they have publicized this issue more than other companies, and for any confusion that may cause with them blowing motors, I apologize. Still nothing wrong with being aggressive though, no reason to take offense to that. And not sure why they won't push your car harder if you are asking them to. That doesn't make any sense.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
        I was not referring to your car as I know your car is built, and you took the damn video of your car. I am referring to the blue e36 I believe it is in their shop. Nothing wrong with being aggressive, just saying that's what I found when shopping around for M3 performance before purchasing my car. I don't know why they didn't blow your stock motor, you tell us....woulda been cool to see a video of it being pushed to it's limits IMO.

        I also was not referencing the video they made to clearly point out the cylinder 5 issue with the motor.

        It does seem they have publicized this issue more than other companies, and for any confusion that may cause with them blowing motors, I apologize. Still nothing wrong with being aggressive though, no reason to take offense to that. And not sure why they won't push your car harder if you are asking them to. That doesn't make any sense.
        Revs OMG OMG OMG revs. Seriously?

        There's always an issue with every ESS car that loses. Always.

        They take account they don't delete / hide. A shame they don't get publicized for all their achievements but hey, that's what money for advertising is for right?

        It makes complete sense why they won't push it as they don't know the limit so rather than push a customer car (mine) they would rather push their own for development. That way if something breaks the forums fanboys don't run wild it putting them down like they always do.
      1. mjmarovi's Avatar
        mjmarovi -
        Just saying, I wasn't talking about your car, every M3 mention doesn't mean it's YOUR car being talked about....there are others out there ya know.

        I am reading more and more about Gintani, it does seem they are very good about taking care of their customers and making things right regardless of issue. (and no, since apparently this has to be written out for you) not talking about your car LOL

        And you mentioned nothing about them doing any testing to a "shop" car. You only said you wanted to see them push your car harder, so if your car is the only one built like you have said it is, then Gintani having a shop car with same build is news to me.

        chill out son, why are you being so defensive over nothing?

        And if they are doing testing on their own shop car before pushing your car harder, why do they even still have your car? Why don't you have it? I mean isn't the trans built and in, and everything done? I woulda thought after that debut or whatever at Bimmerfest that you would have been driving your baby home.
      1. e92livin's Avatar
        e92livin -
        @Sticky there are still on my go-pro ... on a side-note this run shown we agreed to roll up to a lamp post and then go from there which is why there is no honks. I will definitely have them up later today. Also in this race I am running the old gintani set-up since my kit is used but the tune, intake filter and pulley are all new.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        re: specs on both cars - It doesn't seem like many M3 owners remove the primary cats on the S65 (i.e. test pipe) - this should gain more net horsepower than a X-pipe and rear section COMBINED, and it costs much less to do... Are there any reasons for this, or is it just not something that people like to do for reasons of volume/smell/etc.?

        I am moving to a test pipe very soon, and hope it's the right decision - but this concerns me.

        Nice kill by the Gintani M3.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        I don't know about you but I would never setup a race knowing my car was misfiring..
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        I find these results a bit confusing given data presented if the cars are 100% as described. Yesterday we were at the Bimmercruise show up here in Canada and they had a mobile Dynojet setup. Among other cars a Gintani Stage 2 S65 went on and did 495whp STD on our 94 Sunoco octane, no meth. Then an ESS-625 car went on and same octane it did 525whp. My car on pump/meth did 505whp with the one-off set of stock hybrids that I have now. How does a Stg2 Gintani car just pull like that on an ess650 car unless something is either wrong with the ess car or does the driver of the ess car really really suck driving it?

        Outside of that, it was nice to see just how much more power under the curve the N54 had over both of the S65 setups. Would be nice to see a race against both S65 setups one day..
        If you are at 505 HP on the N54, and the other 2 S65 powered cars are at (as you say) 495 HP and 525 HP, how would the area under the curve of the N54 be higher than the S65?

        The S65 is revving out to 8400 RPM - that's a lot of area an N54 curve simply won't have, right? Are you saying it has more area at low RPMs - or across the board? I have a feeling it's across the board - so here's what I came up with. I know this is VERY unscientific, but it's better than taking a glance and saying one is obviously better than another.

        Only caring about 4k RPM and upwards (only range I think we would agree matters for racing) here:

        Here is a 500 HP dyno from an N54 (very impressive N54, not many can claim this graph) --> Attachment 32699

        Here is a Gintani stage 2 graph - with numbers that are a bit better than what you claimed peak, but good enough for here (less than what the owner said his car makes, higher than what you claim) --> Attachment 32700

        Now - for the N54 graph - each box represents 500 RPM (x-axis) * 250 ft-lbs (y-axis) - using OVER APPROXIMATION (e.g. if it's close, I round up) - I count 9.5 boxes of area. So the total area in torques = (500 * 250) * total number of boxes under curve past 4k but below redline = 125000 * 9.5 = 1,187,500 total torques.

        For the S65 graph - box represents 1000 RPM (x-axis) * 100 ft-lbs (y-axis) - again, from 4k RPM on up and OVER approximating if close. I count 14.75 boxes/area. The total area in torques = (1000 * 100) * number of boxes = 100,000 * 14.75 = 1,475,000 total torques.

        Now - the point of all that was to show that there is obviously some bias here. I don't think one would easily have said "oh, that graph obviously has more power under the curve" like was said. The S65 is an amazing engine - when boosted, it's extremely potent.

        This is ALL without even taking into effect the higher redline of the S65. With a 20% higher redline, you can have the same "length" gear (in terms of time spent in each gear) as the N54 gears - however, you can now multiply the torque anywhere on the curve by 20% by shortening the gear. So, you have 20% more torque TO THE WHEELS for every gear used in the car. This is why redline is important.

        Not to turn this into an N54 vs. M3 rant, but the area under the curve comment bothered me a bit. Click here to enlarge

        Cheers.