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    • 6-speed supercharged E92 M3 S65 V8 battle - ESS VT2-650 versus Gintani Stage 2 roll on race

      Finally some ESS versus Gintani supercharged M3 action! These videos are very hard to come by as a video like this can sway perception greatly as to real world performance (dynograph racing is for kids) between the kits. That is why you will not see it on the front page of certain websites. The ESS VT2-650 kit has been claimed to put out over 600 horsepower at the wheels but you do not race graphs, you race cars.


      Here are the specs for both vehicles, the Gintani supercharged M3 is the camera car:

      Mod List - ESS M3
      SGM 08 BMW M3
      ESS VT2- 650 - 8 PSI
      Challenge Race X- Pipe
      Eisenmann Rear Section
      KW V3 Coilovers
      Volk TE37 9.5/10.5 + Yokohama AD08 265/295
      Brembo BBK


      Mod List - Gintani M3 - CAMERA CAR
      MR 08 BMW M3
      Gintani Stage 2 - 7.5 PSI
      RPI X-Pipe
      OEM Rear Section
      H&R Race
      RD Sways
      RPI Scoops
      Toyo R888 275 only rears
      Style 219 OEM Wheels

      Now there are no honks in the video so it appears the Gintani car gets a jump. Regardless, there is no denying it pulls away definitively as which point the ESS supercharged car just gives up and gets off the gas. What explains this results considering the Gintani car has a 7.5 psi boost pulley versus 8.0 for the ESS VT2-650?

      First of all, tuning is an important difference. Gintani Stage 2 kits are usually custom tuned to the application. ESS VT2-650 kits come with a canned tune. One can of course get a custom tune but the actual kit is one size fits all. These are simply different approaches and have their merits but for maximum performance a custom tune tailored to the vehicle and fuel is always preferable.

      Secondly, the Gintani Stage 2 kit features a revised manifold with improved flow. When trying to make the system as efficient as possible the manifold design of course is important. A freer flowing manifold should show less boost.

      Gintani also has a Vortech T-Trim option which is a slightly larger blower capable of more CFM than the V3si ESS uses. Again, pros and cons here as the self-lubricated V3si is very nice from a maintenance perspective and the T-Trim requires tapping the oil pan for lubrication. A pro of tapping the oil pan is the oil can be changed and cooled more easily. A con is if something were to go mechanically wrong with the blower a small piece of metal has a chance (however slim) of entering the cars oil system. Again, pros and cons and there are blower choices available for the Gintani kit although one is locked in with the ESS kit.

      Keep in mind these cars not running meth and the Gintani Stage 2+ setup can run higher boost and more aggressive timing with a custom meth tune which ESS does not offer with their kit.

      Hopefully we see more videos like this as there has been far too much dyno racing by fanboys.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS 650 vs GINTANI STAGE 2 (no meth) both 6 sp started by Wagdaddy View original post
      Comments 90 Comments
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        I have no dog in this fight at all but I can tell you from first hand experience as both cars are local to me. I was there at the dyno when both cars dynoed and mine was on in between as well. Although slower in a race, this ESS-650 did 525whp that day, three pulls in 4th, the Gintani Stage 2 car did 495whp three pulls in 4th that day. Graphs of the Gintani car have been posted too. So dyno numbers wise and given both cars are 6MT it'll be a drivers race here as they're very close with a slight edge on the power front going to the ESS car.

        Dynos are one thing, racing is a whole other world...just something to keep in mind while not defending any one tune out there. Driving a stick requires, and driving it well in a race, requires skill and knowing your car very very well (i.e. shift points, starting RPM, etc).

        My car put down 505whp that day on pump+meth with the one-off custom set of twins with a lot more torque than either of the S65s. If the owners of both cars are up for it we'll do some friendly pulls soon and have some fun...

        EDIT: Just noticed this wasn't a separate thread from the other one on this same subject..excuse anything i've mentioned twice..
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        If you are at 505 HP on the N54, and the other 2 S65 powered cars are at (as you say) 495 HP and 525 HP, how would the area under the curve of the N54 be higher than the S65?

        The S65 is revving out to 8400 RPM - that's a lot of area an N54 curve simply won't have, right? Are you saying it has more area at low RPMs - or across the board? I have a feeling it's across the board - so here's what I came up with. I know this is VERY unscientific, but it's better than taking a glance and saying one is obviously better than another.

        Only caring about 4k RPM and upwards (only range I think we would agree matters for racing) here:

        Here is a 500 HP dyno from an N54 (very impressive N54, not many can claim this graph) --> Attachment 32699

        Here is a Gintani stage 2 graph - with numbers that are a bit better than what you claimed peak, but good enough for here (less than what the owner said his car makes, higher than what you claim) --> Attachment 32700

        Now - for the N54 graph - each box represents 500 RPM (x-axis) * 250 ft-lbs (y-axis) - using OVER APPROXIMATION (e.g. if it's close, I round up) - I count 9.5 boxes of area. So the total area in torques = (500 * 250) * total number of boxes under curve past 4k but below redline = 125000 * 9.5 = 1,187,500 total torques.

        For the S65 graph - box represents 1000 RPM (x-axis) * 100 ft-lbs (y-axis) - again, from 4k RPM on up and OVER approximating if close. I count 14.75 boxes/area. The total area in torques = (1000 * 100) * number of boxes = 100,000 * 14.75 = 1,475,000 total torques.

        Now - the point of all that was to show that there is obviously some bias here. I don't think one would easily have said "oh, that graph obviously has more power under the curve" like was said. The S65 is an amazing engine - when boosted, it's extremely potent.

        This is ALL without even taking into effect the higher redline of the S65. With a 20% higher redline, you can have the same "length" gear (in terms of time spent in each gear) as the N54 gears - however, you can now multiply the torque anywhere on the curve by 20% by shortening the gear. So, you have 20% more torque TO THE WHEELS for every gear used in the car. This is why redline is important.

        Not to turn this into an N54 vs. M3 rant, but the area under the curve comment bothered me a bit. Click here to enlarge

        Cheers.
        Claiming numbers and bench racing which you're doing above is one thing; having graphs in hand, being there on the dyno with both cars and hopefully having some fun with the guys out there racing is another...stop calculating things, go out race some cars and have fun...

        EDIT: By the way, the N54 graph you posted is of a STOCK turbo N54. Get your data straight if you'll go calculating. No one was comparing a stock turbo N54. If you'd like to compare, compare this one:

        Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
        Just saying, I wasn't talking about your car, every M3 mention doesn't mean it's YOUR car being talked about....there are others out there ya know.

        I am reading more and more about Gintani, it does seem they are very good about taking care of their customers and making things right regardless of issue. (and no, since apparently this has to be written out for you) not talking about your car LOL

        And you mentioned nothing about them doing any testing to a "shop" car. You only said you wanted to see them push your car harder, so if your car is the only one built like you have said it is, then Gintani having a shop car with same build is news to me.

        chill out son, why are you being so defensive over nothing?

        And if they are doing testing on their own shop car before pushing your car harder, why do they even still have your car? Why don't you have it? I mean isn't the trans built and in, and everything done? I woulda thought after that debut or whatever at Bimmerfest that you would have been driving your baby home.
        Considering my car is a Gintani vehicle and you didn't specify it's perfectly fine from me to respond from the context of my ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH GINTANI.

        What issue? What are they making right? The only issue is people talking on forums without knowing what they are saying.

        I wanted them to push my car but they said they would never risk a customer car to see where the limits are.

        I'm just being normal, not sure what's odd here. I'm not taking any issue with you.

        Regarding why they still have my car is my car is a DCT not a 6-speed. If everything was done I would be driving it don't you think? Did you even read the Bimmerfest article? If you did you'd have your answer.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e92livin Click here to enlarge
        @Sticky there are still on my go-pro ... on a side-note this run shown we agreed to roll up to a lamp post and then go from there which is why there is no honks. I will definitely have them up later today. Also in this race I am running the old gintani set-up since my kit is used but the tune, intake filter and pulley are all new.
        I understand your reasoning but for people who aren't aware of using a marker a honk eliminates that and also the variable of you both getting to the marker at the exact same time. Regardless, I get why there are no honks now.

        Glad to hear you have the new setup now, that makes it even more impressive. I'll specify that when you get the new video up please put all the runs in 1 vid. Feel free to throw in a BimmerBoost.com reference I always love those.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        I don't know about you but I would never setup a race knowing my car was misfiring..
        Yeppers...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        I have no dog in this fight at all but I can tell you from first hand experience as both cars are local to me. I was there at the dyno when both cars dynoed and mine was on in between as well. Although slower in a race, this ESS-650 did 525whp that day, three pulls in 4th, the Gintani Stage 2 car did 495whp three pulls in 4th that day. Graphs of the Gintani car have been posted too. So dyno numbers wise and given both cars are 6MT it'll be a drivers race here as they're very close with a slight edge on the power front going to the ESS car.

        Dynos are one thing, racing is a whole other world...just something to keep in mind while not defending any one tune out there. Driving a stick requires, and driving it well in a race, requires skill and knowing your car very very well (i.e. shift points, starting RPM, etc).

        My car put down 505whp that day on pump+meth with the one-off custom set of twins with a lot more torque than either of the S65s. If the owners of both cars are up for it we'll do some friendly pulls soon and have some fun...

        EDIT: Just noticed this wasn't a separate thread from the other one on this same subject..excuse anything i've mentioned twice..
        Dyno this dyno that... race 'em bro. They'll blow you away. Run a DCT for an eye opening experience.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Dyno this dyno that... race 'em bro. They'll blow you away. Run a DCT for an eye opening experience.
        haha you make it sounds like someone's got something to prove, maybe you do!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        haha you make it sounds like someone's got something to prove, maybe you do!
        I most certainly do but I'm in a slightly different league. Regardless, I'm well aware of how an SC M3 performs.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I most certainly do but I'm in a slightly different league. Regardless, I'm well aware of how an SC M3 performs.
        The non-racing car-in-the-shop league? Let me know when you come out of that and actually can race anyone and we'll set something up! Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        The non-racing car-in-the-shop league? Let me know when you come out of that and actually can race anyone and we'll set something up! Click here to enlarge
        The best you have ever done is what at the track? Less than what my car did years ago? You should probably slow your roll until you exceed where I've already been.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        All the spark plug wire does is provide the RPM signal for the vehicle so you can track that on the dyno screem. It has zero to do with the DJ being able to read HP or TQ, if it can read HP it can read tq as they are both read from the same roller, just with different equations to get the numbers. Something smells a little fishy here.
        For a fixed-mass rotating/drum dyno, the dyno is measuring how fast the car can accelerated a fixed mass (drum). It derives it's outputs from the amount of "Work" - so you cannot determine the torque of an engine without knowing the RPM. I don't think that, without the RPM, the unit of torque means anything to someone measuring the output of an engine - so it wouldn't really make sense to output torque (if possible) without RPM.

        Here is an article from superflow (bolded parts explaining this):
        ---

        It is important to understand that engine rpm is unnecessary for power calculations on a
        SuperFlow chassis dynamometer. Therefore, if you only need some quick horsepower numbers,
        you do not need to obtain rpm because:

        On an engine dynamometer, engine rpm is a requirement to compute engine horsepower
        because of the formula shown here.
        EngineHorsepower = EngineTorque * EngineRPM/ 5252.113

        However, on a chassis dynamometer, the power at the point where the vehicle wheels contacts
        the dynamometer roll is derived from three separate measurements:

        • The inertia power is derived from the known inertia mass of the roll accelerating during the
        test with the rate of acceleration measured by the roll speed pickup.

        • Dyno losses are computed at the factory and embedded in the system configuration.

        • Roll power is derived from the dynamometer strain gauge torque multiplied by roll rpm
        divided by 5252.113.

        Thus, no part of the wheel power equation requires engine rpm. You can literally dyno all day
        without an engine speed input. SuperFlow even provides a default printout page (number 9)
        defined with roll speed on the X-axis for convenient plotting of power when engine speed is
        erratic or nonexistent.

        Of course, having engine speed is still important—particularly for graphing power numbers vs.
        rpm and for deriving the WhlTrq numbers resulting from the wheel power numbe
        r. Thus, you
        should have a good engine rpm reading even if it is not necessary for the power calculations.
        SuperFlow provides several methods for obtaining engine speed, and any of them will work.
        However, you may need to experiment with each method before deciding which one works best
        for the test vehicle.


        ----

        It's the opposite of what one would think when quickly thinking about it, however I have read a ton on this subject, so wanted to clarify that this is not BS.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        Claiming numbers and bench racing which you're doing above is one thing; having graphs in hand, being there on the dyno with both cars and hopefully having some fun with the guys out there racing is another...stop calculating things, go out race some cars and have fun...

        EDIT: By the way, the N54 graph you posted is of a STOCK turbo N54. Get your data straight if you'll go calculating. No one was comparing a stock turbo N54. If you'd like to compare, compare this one:

        http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...e2f1b1d9-1.jpg
        All I was trying to say was that you saying "how much better the N54 curve is than the blown S65s" was not accurate. You made a statement that I didn't think was true - took VERY SIMILAR cars to having the output of what you described, and showed it wasn't. That's all. I am not trying to say anything else - which car is faster, etc... I was just talking about area under the curve.

        My point stands - it's not a simple matter to just say one curve is superior to another without actually measuring this. Why no one does measure this is beyond me - it's all that matters.

        I understand what you are saying in regard to stop calculating/race/etc. - however, without numbers we would have nothing. Dynos would mean nothing, you wouldn't run them, talk about them, or use them. It's when numbers aren't in one's favor when they are suddenly unimportant. I track my car, used to be into karting (birrels) - nothing serious, so try to understand both sides of the coin.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The best you have ever done is what at the track? Less than what my car did years ago? You should probably slow your roll until you exceed where I've already been.
        We have stock turbo DCT cars running what you did years ago
        The heck are you comparing dct cars to a 6mt in a 1/4? I was at least trying to compare similar transmissions, relax
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        All I was trying to say was that you saying "how much better the N54 curve is than the blown S65s" was not accurate. You made a statement that I didn't think was true - took VERY SIMILAR cars to having the output of what you described, and showed it wasn't. That's all. I am not trying to say anything else - which car is faster, etc... I was just talking about area under the curve.

        My point stands - it's not a simple matter to just say one curve is superior to another without actually measuring this. Why no one does measure this is beyond me - it's all that matters.

        I understand what you are saying in regard to stop calculating/race/etc. - however, without numbers we would have nothing. Dynos would mean nothing, you wouldn't run them, talk about them, or use them. It's when numbers aren't in one's favor when they are suddenly unimportant. I track my car, used to be into karting (birrels) - nothing serious, so try to understand both sides of the coin.
        Ok fair enough. How does the graph i posted stack up? I'll go through your calcs this time Click here to enlarge
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        lol.. hp and tq dont matter, its all about tq multiplication!
        @inlines54 your anology is very scientifc, but your not factoring time in gear, multiple shifts and acceleration over distance vs time

        there is a reason why peaky hp vs broad powerband is a close race Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        We have stock turbo DCT cars running what you did years ago
        The heck are you comparing dct cars to a 6mt in a 1/4? I was at least trying to compare similar transmissions, relax
        Running what I did at 575 wheel years ago on my first try with an overheating trans years before any N54 got close? Cool, and you're running what again?

        Don't pick fights you can't win. If you want to run I have no problem with that but you're making a big mistake.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        lol.. hp and tq dont matter, its all about tq multiplication!
        You have to have torque and hp to multiply. Please don't talk about topics you don't understand.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        lol.. hp and tq dont matter, its all about tq multiplication!
        @inlines54 your anology is very scientifc, but your not factoring time in gear, multiple shifts and acceleration over distance vs time

        there is a reason why peaky hp vs broad powerband is a close race Click here to enlarge
        Yeah, I totally agree with you - as long as you can stay in the powerband (peaky) - you are golden. Just like an R6 (bike) - the gearing was short, but if you shifted at redline, you would be in the meat of the powerband at next shift.

        All I mean (re: tq multiplication) take two cars/engines with similar power-bands (in terms of area) - but one has a higher redline. The car with the higher redline can shorten gearing to apply more tq to the ground. The car will accelerate faster - it's just like saying a car in 1st gear accelerates faster than a car in 2nd - the horsepower and torque didn't change, but the acceleration does. In other words, having a higher redline is advantageous because it allows you to take advantage of mechanical advantage (torque/leverage). Yes, it's not going to change much at high speeds, when it's all about power - but from say 0-100, it's important. They could gear an F1 engine to "redline" at 8k in each gear instead of 16k, but it's torque would be halved to the ground - and the acceleration would be half of what it was. Again, power and torque at the crank didn't change.

        To your point, it definitely is NOT this simple, there is MUCH more at play in the real world. I just factor in what I can, and try to learn as I go. You are 100% right, without factoring in everything (time/distance) - both cars WILL reach the same distance over a long enough time. How quickly one chooses to get to 30/60/100/etc. in a given distance/time- can be helped by gearing is all I meant by the gearing stuff. It (gearing) doesn't turn a stock M3 into a supercharged M3 killer, that's for sure. Click here to enlarge

        Cheers.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
        Ok fair enough. How does the graph i posted stack up? I'll go through your calcs this time
        lol - just sent you my calculations... let me know if you agree.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        The car with the higher redline can shorten gearing to apply more tq to the ground.
        Why this is beyond some people's comprehension I have no idea.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Why this is beyond some people's comprehension I have no idea.
        In all seriousness, I blame the car magazines. They should write about this topic, it's one of the most important things/metrics when explaining something like a "torqueless" S2000.

        If you can't physically show someone by either driving them in a car - but must use words instead, why not use the most descriptive/accurate words there are? We all read a car magazine from time to time to compare what car is faster than another. After 40 years of magazines (or whatever), we still have nothing but peak numbers to go off of. Just now, 0-60 is becoming less important, and 1/4 and 0-100/0-160 is starting to trend.

        I honestly don't get it - if I owned a car magazine, I would at a minimum do area under the curve - it seems like one more mouse click once the data is obtained. I don't get it - and it drives me nuts. Click here to enlarge

        I would think the first magazine to actually treat their readers like they are capable of understanding something would win the popularity/accuracy contest - but for some reason, it doesn't happen. Argh. Click here to enlarge