• 335/N54 fanboys get panties in a twist over a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned bolt on 335i

      Oh yes, here we go the millionth time, the ever popular 335 versus M3 discussion. A user posted the video below of a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned 335i in the forums and the N54 fanboys went for the pitchforks and torches. For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase. There is the typical "oh I didn't get an M3 because a tuned 335 is faster" nonsense that N54 fanboys tend to comfort themselves with in the never ending M3 versus 335 debate.


      Even though the 335 in this video may have more power and torque in tuned form which the fanboys love to point out the other side of the coin is that the M3's redline and transmission are a huge advantage. Gearing is an area the M3 simply has an advantage over the 335 in and the transmission makes a big difference as one can see the shift speed in lower gears is really what gives the M3 the gains it sees in the race early on.

      Up top, the tuned 335's horsepower advantage comes into play as the cars spend more time in gear negating the gear change advantage provided by the DCT allowing the 335 to inch up and close the gap.

      This video is a good real world example as without race gas or meth a 335 will struggle against a tuned M3 especially one with DCT. Of course 335 owners will point out they can upgrade their turbos. Then M3 owners will say they can supercharge. Then the debate escalates and escalate and there are dozens of pages to read of M3 and 335 owners essentially throwing feces at each other. BMW fans, just enjoy 335 versus M3 round 400,000 in the video below.

      M3 is the camera car.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: New video-DCT m3 takes down a FBO 335 with jb4, downpipes, FMIC and intake started by Wannbm5 View original post
      Comments 315 Comments
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        When I hear stock block and head, people are usually referring to the parts inside also. As I was saying earlier about the s2000, the 700whp has been made on stock piston, rods, bearings, etc. If you don't think that is built stronger out the factory than the s65 than you are nuts. Keep in mind its a 2.0L 4cyl. Never seen an s65 do that, but there has been a particular bmw motor that has. Here's a hint. Starts with an N and ends with a 4.
        The s54 did it first
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Here's another good hint - starts with an S and ends with a 54. Look how long it took - that's the thing; we haven't seen what it's even capable of yet... The N54 of course will have a head start, it's turbo from the factory. Trick the ECU into adding more boost - viola. This isn't so simple on an S54 or an S65.

        The S65 is certainly superior, it is just a matter of time. You are looking at motors that have BSFCs rivaling a Prius - against a regular (albeit pretty good) motor with a turbo. A PSI on an N54 is not the same as a PSI on an S65 or an S54 - once the boost is in, it's not even a show anymore. I don't understand where this N54 superiority comes in - it's a good engine, but it's nothing crazy. I don't get it.

        The S65 has made 700 HP - and it makes torque across a very wide power-band, something the N54 is INCAPABLE of doing - why isn't that seen as important? It took many years to get to the 700 HP range on the S2000 motor - it's not easy. I am heavily doubting that this was stock internals - and if it was, I have a feeling it wouldn't last. A friend of mine with a boosted S2K has half this power (~400ish at the wheels) and is concerned with his internals. Where are these 700 HP S2ks on stock internals? I am honestly curious - I just find it hard to believe he doesn't know this already.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        The s54 did it first
        lol - beat me to it. Click here to enlarge
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        lol - beat me to it. Click here to enlarge
        Lol you beat me to the s2k responce. I had to look something up but I was about to go in on that one
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Here's another good hint - starts with an S and ends with a 54. Look how long it took - that's the thing; we haven't seen what it's even capable of yet... The N54 of course will have a head start, it's turbo from the factory. Trick the ECU into adding more boost - viola. This isn't so simple on an S54 or an S65.

        The S65 is certainly superior, it is just a matter of time. You are looking at motors that have BSFCs rivaling a Prius - against a regular (albeit pretty good) motor with a turbo. A PSI on an N54 is not the same as a PSI on an S65 or an S54 - once the boost is in, it's not even a show anymore. I don't understand where this N54 superiority comes in - it's a good engine, but it's nothing crazy. I don't get it.

        The S65 has made 700 HP - and it makes torque across a very wide power-band, something the N54 is INCAPABLE of doing - why isn't that seen as important? It took many years to get to the 700 HP range on the S2000 motor - it's not easy. I am heavily doubting that this was stock internals - and if it was, I have a feeling it wouldn't last. A friend of mine with a boosted S2K has half this power (~400ish at the wheels) and is concerned with his internals. Where are these 700 HP S2ks on stock internals? I am honestly curious - I just find it hard to believe he doesn't know this already.
        http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/9386...e/page__st__50
        They had it at 600rwhp running and beating on it for a year b4 they took it to the next step. I believe there is another build out there pushing 800rwhp but has a build head with stock block.
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        I would honestly have an s2k already if it wasn't for it being a 2 seater. Your friend has nothing to worry about if his tune is good since people that are running 400hp on those motors say it is their mild tune.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/9386...e/page__st__50
        They had it at 600rwhp running and beating on it for a year b4 they took it to the next step. I believe there is another build out there pushing 800rwhp but has a build head with stock block.
        whats your point? This is bimmerboost not clubintegra, s2ki, or what ever else Honda forum. We know it's a great motor I was just using it as an example cause it was the first car to come to mind.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        ok, if you want it that plainly... is it sleeved/bored?.. 'built'? (though i've surmised as much from other posts), what other internal modifications on have you done to get to where you are?

        and what modifications have been done to said OEM head... completely stock? any reason not to port just to see if there's anything AT ALL to gain? or did you get it looked at and it really was THAT good?

        stock springs/retainers/etc. etc. too?
        Asked me if it's sleeved, simple as that. No big secret.

        Of course the S65 heads are good. What is supporting the NA power as is?

        I can't ported it but the heads aren't the limitation yet and I don't know if they ever will be for me. There isn't enough to gain right now to even bother with it.
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        The guy above said he was interested in knowing so I linked it. This is also a "car" forum first and formost. If you think that way then you are really going to hate when sticky adds Americanboost for the guys here with American cars.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        When I hear stock block and head, people are usually referring to the parts inside also. As I was saying earlier about the s2000, the 700whp has been made on stock piston, rods, bearings, etc. If you don't think that is built stronger out the factory than the s65 than you are nuts. Keep in mind its a 2.0L 4cyl. Never seen an s65 do that, but there has been a particular bmw motor that has. Here's a hint. Starts with an N and ends with a 4.
        You can't base it all on wheel horsepower on stock internals. It's not apples to apples. If that is all you are trying to do then go get a thicker head gasket fabbed up and go nuts seeing what you can do until it pops.

        The S54 did 700 on stock internals before the N54 and with stock compression. So your hint sucked.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        The s54 did it first
        Bingo.
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        I said a particular bmw motor. No where did I say first bmw motor.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        The N54 of course will have a head start, it's turbo from the factory.
        And people act like this point is invalid.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        It took many years to get to the 700 HP range on the S2000 motor - it's not easy.
        Exactly, tuning evolves. And it's not like hitting a peak figure on a dyno means you can do it daily and support that HP reliably.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        I said a particular bmw motor. No where did I say first bmw motor.
        Try to do it without bias toward a single motor when another already did a while ago what you were hinting at. And is making much more power too...
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        The guy above said he was interested in knowing so I linked it. This is also a "car" forum first and formost. If you think that way then you are really going to hate when sticky adds Americanboost for the guys here with American cars.
        1) my bad I didn't read the rest of his post I feel stupid
        2) i dont care about him adding Americanboost, hondaboost, or whatever boost lol why would I that doesn't make sense?
        3) you implied the n54 was the first/only one to do it
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        1) my bad I didn't read the rest of his post I feel stupid
        2) i dont care about him adding Americanboost, hondaboost, or whatever boost lol why would I that doesn't make sense?
        Because you wrote this is BimmerBoost. I mean, we are all enthusiasts of cars first and foremost so it doesn't matter to me and it shouldn't to others if other cars and tuning platforms are referenced for context.

        I'm pretty excited about hondaboost.com personally.
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        I honestly like both the s65 and n54. They each have their strong points, but some of you guys make it like the s65 is gods gift to earth and is better than the n54 in every aspect. Any motor can be made to put out big Hp numbers, it just comes down to $$. I would just prefer the N54 if I was never planning on opening the motor up.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Asked me if it's sleeved, simple as that. No big secret.

        Of course the S65 heads are good. What is supporting the NA power as is?

        I can't ported it but the heads aren't the limitation yet and I don't know if they ever will be for me. There isn't enough to gain right now to even bother with it.
        yeah i know, it's just meant as a 'what mods do you have to your engine' blanket question, rather than having to pull teeth like this haha (even though you're totally forthcoming when asked)

        that's true... but, considering you're going completely all-out, even if the head wasn't a LIMITATION... was there absloutely no power for you to gain FOR THE MONEY - they're THAT good?

        and the stock springs can handle the 20~psi of boost on them as WELL as the revs?

        i mean, considering how much it's cost, and how long it's taken, at least getting it looked at would have been a drop in the ocean haha
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        but some of you guys make it like the s65 is gods gift to earth
        I was going to say gift to the universe but earth is good enough.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        and is better than the n54 in every aspect. Any motor can be made to put out big Hp numbers, it just comes down to $$. I would just prefer the N54 if I was never planning on opening the motor up.
        I think it's important to balance the sides. Obviously there is more pro-N54 talk and there is no problem with that it's great. But some people have their heads buried in the sand. We can handle multiple view points.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        My point was just that it's we are on a s65vsn54 thread on a BMW forum why are we debating Hondas. Save that for another thread or leave it on Honda forums. At the time I didn't read the whole post where it was clearly was using it as reference