• 335/N54 fanboys get panties in a twist over a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned bolt on 335i

      Oh yes, here we go the millionth time, the ever popular 335 versus M3 discussion. A user posted the video below of a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned 335i in the forums and the N54 fanboys went for the pitchforks and torches. For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase. There is the typical "oh I didn't get an M3 because a tuned 335 is faster" nonsense that N54 fanboys tend to comfort themselves with in the never ending M3 versus 335 debate.


      Even though the 335 in this video may have more power and torque in tuned form which the fanboys love to point out the other side of the coin is that the M3's redline and transmission are a huge advantage. Gearing is an area the M3 simply has an advantage over the 335 in and the transmission makes a big difference as one can see the shift speed in lower gears is really what gives the M3 the gains it sees in the race early on.

      Up top, the tuned 335's horsepower advantage comes into play as the cars spend more time in gear negating the gear change advantage provided by the DCT allowing the 335 to inch up and close the gap.

      This video is a good real world example as without race gas or meth a 335 will struggle against a tuned M3 especially one with DCT. Of course 335 owners will point out they can upgrade their turbos. Then M3 owners will say they can supercharge. Then the debate escalates and escalate and there are dozens of pages to read of M3 and 335 owners essentially throwing feces at each other. BMW fans, just enjoy 335 versus M3 round 400,000 in the video below.

      M3 is the camera car.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: New video-DCT m3 takes down a FBO 335 with jb4, downpipes, FMIC and intake started by Wannbm5 View original post
      Comments 315 Comments
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        I'm not sure what happened to the format on my last post?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        [COLOR=[URL=http://www.bimmerboost.com/misc.php?do=dbtech_usertag_hash&hash=222222%5D%5BF ONT%3DTimes%5D%5BQUOTE%3DSticky]#222222]
        I've read from several sources that the n54 had certain internal parts that were forged ( not sure which ones specifically, but I believe the pistons are). But the s65 has cast parts. I could be wrong but I've seen it several places
        [/COLOR]
        The stress a motor undergoes with high piston speeds and revs necessitates some pretty strong parts. Forged crank and rods, cast pistons.

        The N54 is not built for big boost by default. It isn't designed to be a power platform or with professional racing in mind.

        You said the N54 internals are stronger with no basis for it. "Robust" is your support? Really?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        I'm not sure what happened to the format on my last post?
        Not sure what you posted from, mobile or otherwise.
      1. Eleventeen's Avatar
        Eleventeen -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        [COLOR=[URL=http://www.bimmerboost.com/misc.php?do=dbtech_usertag_hash&hash=222222%5D%5BF ONT%3DTimes%5D%5BQUOTE%3DSticky]#222222]
        I've read from several sources that the n54 had certain internal parts that were forged ( not sure which ones specifically, but I believe the pistons are). But the s65 has cast parts. I could be wrong but I've seen it several places
        [/COLOR]
        The N54 crank and rods are unquestionably forged (per BMW documentation). The pistons probably aren't. Regardless, the N54 has been proven to withstand ~275 BHP / liter so far and we're still going. Just for fun (not for the sake of scientific data since there are many other variables), break out your calculator and figure out how much total BHP that would be in Z06 or Viper displacement. Click here to enlarge
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The stress a motor undergoes with high piston speeds and revs necessitates some pretty strong parts. Forged crank and rods, cast pistons.

        The N54 is not built for big boost by default. It isn't designed to be a power platform or with professional racing in mind.

        You said the N54 internals are stronger with no basis for it. "Robust" is your support? Really?
        I'm tired and being lazy, I'll try to elaborate more.
        Just because an engine revs higher doesn't necessarily means its built "stronger". The Honda s2k has a higher redline and faster engine speed, but I highly doubt it's built "stronger" than the s65. What I'm trying to say is that the n54 is a stronger boosted engine (stock for stock). But sure when it comes to handling revving past 8k the s65 is going to be "stronger".
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        Just because an engine revs higher doesn't necessarily means its built "stronger".
        You're right. That's why I mentioned that the motor was made with racing in mind. Additionally, if you ask most engine builders they attribute a whole ton of stress to RPM. And RPM is very important regarding strength. The S65 was tested up to 10k rpm by BMW.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        The Honda s2k has a higher redline and faster engine speed, but I highly doubt it's built "stronger" than the s65.
        It makes like 700 whp on stock internals. Building a motor for revs by nature makes for some strong parts being necessary.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        What I'm trying to say is that the n54 is a stronger boosted engine (stock for stock). But sure when it comes to handling revving past 8k the s65 is going to be "stronger".
        I understand what you are trying to say but you are wrong. The N54 isn't a stronger boosted engine as by default the M3 makes far more power per psi of boost. And it goes to show how strong it is with its stock internal results. Boost with a motor made for natural aspiration gives 600 whp. Build it for that boost in mind and well same ole same ole.

        Additionally, stock for stock with boost for both is what you are also mentioning right?
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        @Sticky correct I'm comparing stock for stock. if th s65 is stronger then why are there 700hp n54 and not s65?
        Edit* and yes you are 100% right about the stress from rpm, but it's a different kind of stress than stress inflicted by boost.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        @Sticky correct I'm comparing stock for stock. if th s65 is stronger then why are there 700hp n54 and not s65?
        Edit* and yes you are 100% right about the stress from rpm, but it's a different kind of stress than stress inflicted by boost.
        I think you can figure out on your own why one motor might make more on stock internals than another. It's honestly simple. Ultimately we get into potential and let's be real 4.0 liters with 8500 rpm and 8 cylinders won't be overcome. Ever.
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        I'm tired and being lazy, I'll try to elaborate more.
        Just because an engine revs higher doesn't necessarily means its built "stronger". The Honda s2k has a higher redline and faster engine speed, but I highly doubt it's built "stronger" than the s65. What I'm trying to say is that the n54 is a stronger boosted engine (stock for stock). But sure when it comes to handling revving past 8k the s65 is going to be "stronger".
        Being able to rev high does not have to do with the strength of a motor, but the s2k's motor is among one of the great motors out there. People have pushed it to 700rwhp with stock block and head, and plenty of 600rwhp+ builds. This is also coming from a 2.0L 4cylinder motor, so I would say yes it has been built "stronger" than a S65.
      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        Just my 2 cents as I was reading posts from a few people who clearly don't realize a 450 whp 335i will smoke a 450 whp M3 due to the fact the 335i make 500 wtq.... Some people say it didn't happen without video... Well here you go! Clearly the JB car needs a little work as I know for a fact a well tuned JB car will match my cars performance on stock turbos... Enjoy



        This one my engine coded and I limped to the finish... Ended up having a failed plug...

      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        BTW, don't get me wrong... I would love to have an M3, especially this one....

      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        Being able to rev high does not have to do with the strength of a motor, but the s2k's motor is among one of the great motors out there. People have pushed it to 700rwhp with stock block and head, and plenty of 600rwhp+ builds. This is also coming from a 2.0L 4cylinder motor, so I would say yes it has been built "stronger" than a S65.
        Being able to rev high has to do a TON with the strength of an engine. If it didn't you could just spin any engine you wanted (including the N54/55) to 8.5k. Again - revs and torque are equal components to HP, so if this were true - people would just spin their engines to F1 speeds (22-24k RPM). It takes a very very well engineered and strong engine to put up with the stresses of high RPM continuous use.

        The next gen GT3 is a good thing to look at, I am very curious what is found when that engine is looked at under light. 9k in an engine that size is just as "crazy" as the difference between 7k and 8.5kRPM - jumping up to 9k RPM is crazy stress on an engine.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        Being able to rev high does not have to do with the strength of a motor, but the s2k's motor is among one of the great motors out there. People have pushed it to 700rwhp with stock block and head, and plenty of 600rwhp+ builds. This is also coming from a 2.0L 4cylinder motor, so I would say yes it has been built "stronger" than a S65.
        1) you are wrong. If it revs high it's built strong. The s54 is a perfect example.
        2) I never said the f20c1 in the s2k wasn't a great motor. It has the fastest recorded engine speed and revs to 9k of course it's great, but I'm not here to debate the s2k
        3)it has a sleeved block so yeah I imagine it can make pretty good hp numbers with forced induction on the stock block(I guess that goes against my previous post about strength but idc)block
        4) sticky is still on the stock block and maybe stock head(@Sticky correct me if I'm wrong) making high hp with a bigger engine with more moving parts that need to be built stronger so as not to fail.
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        1) you are wrong. If it revs high it's built strong. The s54 is a perfect example.
        2) I never said the f20c1 in the s2k wasn't a great motor. It has the fastest recorded engine speed and revs to 9k of course it's great, but I'm not here to debate the s2k
        3)it has a sleeved block so yeah I imagine it can make pretty good hp numbers with forced induction on the stock block(I guess that goes against my previous post about strength but idc)block
        4) sticky is still on the stock block and maybe stock head(@Sticky correct me if I'm wrong) making high hp with a bigger engine with more moving parts that need to be built stronger so as not to fail.
        Cars/motors that rev high, but are not considered built strong- rx8, b16 honda motor, b18 honda motor, all the crotch rockets.

        How is being able to rev high= to being built strong? It may be a characteristic of a strong built motor, but doesn't necessarily mean its built to handle tons of power.

        also, sticky's motor is built.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        If it revs high it's built stronger than the average engine otherwise you could spin any engine to 9k+ rpm with no problems.
      1. Eleventeen's Avatar
        Eleventeen -
        Geometry plays a key role in max RPM. A long stroke motor has to be built much stronger to sustain high RPM than a short stroke motor would need to be. A chainsaw revs at really high RPM's, but it's not built stronger than an N54...
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        All you need to know is an M3 exceeded anything an N54 has ever done without even running to redline or on highest boost. How big do you think the disparity really is at the moment? When the S65 gets turbos how much bigger will it get?
        and i'm sure both motors will keep playing leapfrog until people get sick of spending so much... or yours exceeds all expectations and makes stupid power haha
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
        Being able to rev high does not have to do with the strength of a motor, but the s2k's motor is among one of the great motors out there. People have pushed it to 700rwhp with stock block and head, and plenty of 600rwhp+ builds. This is also coming from a 2.0L 4cylinder motor, so I would say yes it has been built "stronger" than a S65.
        The F20 is 11.0:1. You can't base strength solely off hp figures or else the S65 V8 is "stronger" since the F22 bumped the redline down and made less horsepower NA. It isn't black and white like that.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        Just my 2 cents as I was reading posts from a few people who clearly don't realize a 450 whp 335i will smoke a 450 whp M3 due to the fact the 335i make 500 wtq....
        Omg this same idiotic point again. Another person trying to tell others what they need to realize when he doesn't realize 570 whp M3's are putting down the same trap speeds as the Vishnu single turbo in the mid 650's. How do you explain that?

        Someone focusing on engine torque figures again, wonderful. Still the common poster does not get it.

        I'll never make the same torque as some of these big turbo cars but I'll annihilate them. The M3 doesn't need more peak torque it's where it makes its torque that matters. God damn...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        4) sticky is still on the stock block and maybe stock head(@Sticky correct me if I'm wrong) making high hp with a bigger engine with more moving parts that need to be built stronger so as not to fail.
        Stock block stock heads.