• 335/N54 fanboys get panties in a twist over a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned bolt on 335i

      Oh yes, here we go the millionth time, the ever popular 335 versus M3 discussion. A user posted the video below of a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned 335i in the forums and the N54 fanboys went for the pitchforks and torches. For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase. There is the typical "oh I didn't get an M3 because a tuned 335 is faster" nonsense that N54 fanboys tend to comfort themselves with in the never ending M3 versus 335 debate.


      Even though the 335 in this video may have more power and torque in tuned form which the fanboys love to point out the other side of the coin is that the M3's redline and transmission are a huge advantage. Gearing is an area the M3 simply has an advantage over the 335 in and the transmission makes a big difference as one can see the shift speed in lower gears is really what gives the M3 the gains it sees in the race early on.

      Up top, the tuned 335's horsepower advantage comes into play as the cars spend more time in gear negating the gear change advantage provided by the DCT allowing the 335 to inch up and close the gap.

      This video is a good real world example as without race gas or meth a 335 will struggle against a tuned M3 especially one with DCT. Of course 335 owners will point out they can upgrade their turbos. Then M3 owners will say they can supercharge. Then the debate escalates and escalate and there are dozens of pages to read of M3 and 335 owners essentially throwing feces at each other. BMW fans, just enjoy 335 versus M3 round 400,000 in the video below.

      M3 is the camera car.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: New video-DCT m3 takes down a FBO 335 with jb4, downpipes, FMIC and intake started by Wannbm5 View original post
      Comments 315 Comments
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You're working with what charts man? The point being ultimately rpm can be an advantage even with less torque.
        yeah i know, power comes out at a given RPM with torque

        from dynos i can find easily, an NA S65 will put out about 250-260ft-lb dead flat to 8250RPM redline

        the N54 puts out (as in my above post), 250ft-lb @ 3250RPM, 450-475ft-lb peak, 350ft-lb at 7000rpm redline


        so yes RPM can gain an advantage at lower torque due to gearing (re: every honda, ever)

        however in this case, the N54 edges it out with THAT much more torque over the applicable rev range

        unless you're going to bring in SC kits for the M3... whoooole nother kettle of fish as we'd then have to bring in singles for the n54 etc. etc.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        I totally get the whole torque multiplication thru gearing but I'm on the less popular side like lost marine and believe its still no substitute for real engine torque .. Look at the c63 it uses a pretty tall 2.82 final drive with similar individual gear ratios to the m3 . I own a c63 fbo minus headers( for another week or so until installed) and have gotten seat time in a dct m3 even with the gearing and final drive advantage the feeling of torque and pull is no comparison the c63 pushes you back much harder. And the fact I ran against a stock m3 when I was tune/filters only and blew it out of the water multiple times. I even pulled on a s85 v10 powered m6 pretty good that is a big dog version of the s65 (check my history I posted a video of the m6 pull and my YouTube Channel has 3 vids of it to show no fluke) I was also tune/ filters only. Just basing off my experience I'm no expert
        if you have enough power, you can gear out the torque to the wheels to overcome a motor with a lot of ENGINE torque but not much power (low RPM)... but you can't gear out power on a car with low torque.

        this means the car with more power (lower torque, higher redline) will have better real world acceleration than the car with more torque, GEARING taken into account... assuming the difference is large enough (so we're not talking about 500RPM more with a few % less torque ALL the way through the lower rev range, and 1% more power in said 500rpm)
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        if you have enough power, you can gear out the torque to the wheels to overcome a motor with a lot of ENGINE torque but not much power (low RPM)... but you can't gear out power on a car with low torque.

        this means the car with more power (lower torque, higher redline) will have better real world acceleration than the car with more torque, GEARING taken into account... assuming the difference is large enough (so we're not talking about 500RPM more with a few % less torque ALL the way through the lower rev range, and 1% more power in said 500rpm)
        Hmm I guess that makes sense the more I think about it and break it down good points ! I guess I don't run into that problem personally because the c63/m156 has very good torque but also a great top end for a big displacement 6.2L v8 that never drops power up top and has a relatively high red Line for an engine of its size (7,200 rpm)
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        I can't discudd this right nkw a foursome is going down in my suite. And im ar karoeke var
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Omg spelling
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I can't discudd this right nkw a foursome is going down in my suite. And im ar karoeke var
        Have fun bro Click here to enlarge sunglasses and Advil ! Hopefully no herpes meds just Advil :p
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        Have fun bro Click here to enlarge sunglasses and Advil ! Hopefully no herpes meds just Advil :p
        I just poured water on myself.
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I just poured water on myself.
        Lmfao now your just wet and nothing was solved !! Pics or it didn't happen ! Hahaha get out of here and enjoy brudda sounds like one for the books
      1. Linracing's Avatar
        Linracing -
        Who says n54 owners are jealous ? Lol I sold my M3 once I got my hands on a n54 lol.

        Ok here is what should happen. Some find a FBO M3 stroker or none stroker $#@! it can even have a ess 525 supercharger kit on it I don't care, any FBO M3 that wants to run my N54 in Cali put up or shut up I will drive to you and put it on video! I am calling every M3 FBO or supercharged 525 kits to run my FBO n54. Who's it gonna be?
      1. cstavaru's Avatar
        cstavaru -
        "For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase.". I think it's the other way around Click here to enlarge

        I see the 335i catching up with the M3 and coming up in front...faster start of the M3 does not mean "pulling".
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
        "For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase.". I think it's the other way around Click here to enlarge

        I see the 335i catching up with the M3 and coming up in front...faster start of the M3 does not mean "pulling".
        This thread shows it's not the other way around.
      1. cstavaru's Avatar
        cstavaru -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This thread shows it's not the other way around.
        The fact that this thread was posted on the first page of the web site shows that it is the other way around Click here to enlarge

        And the M3 did not even win Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
        The fact that this thread was posted on the first page of the web site shows that it is the other way around Click here to enlarge

        And the M3 did not even win Click here to enlarge
        This thread shows everything goes.
      1. bobS's Avatar
        bobS -
        Tq multiplication blah blah blah....everyone that is serious about modding a m3 gets a blower...why? Bc on the street, without a blower, the e9x m3 isn't a fast car. This is the argument LM makes, and this is what I thought when I test drove a m3. We aren't talking about track performance, I'm talking about driving on the street.

        I cant bring myself to spend more money on a slower car. When BMW gets the next gen m3 on the street,it will be a different story.

        I find it funny that every time a conversation comes up about the m3 having no tq, people start whipping out graphs, tq multiplication, blah blah. Comparing the s65 to a z06, really? Click here to enlarge

        The bottom line is, when you step out of a fbo 335, and turn the key on a e9x m3....it just feels dull
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        yeah i saw that post... i'm not sure what you're trying to point out?

        re: gearing... we're talking 250~ft-lb from the M3 at 3.65:1 6MT, 3.15:1 DCT with shorter bag ratios.... and 335i we're looking more like 475ft-lb peak, 250ft-lb from 3250rpm, 350ft-lb at redline, lets go 400-425 average from 3500-redline... sooooo... 1309ft-lb average (not counting gearbox) from the 6MT N54 to 962.5 on a 6MT M3

        now gear ratios taken into account for M3:

        DCT: 4.780, 2.933, 2.153, 3.15 final drive - 3764, 2312, 1695
        6MT: 4.055, 2.386, 1.582, 3.65 final drive - 3700, 2177, 1443

        now N54:

        6mt: 4.06, 2.4, 1.58, 3.08 Final Drive - 5314, 3141.6, 2068.22

        so on what planet does an E9x M3 put down more torque to the ground than a properly modified N54 powered car?
        I clearly said stock for stock. I admitted that a PROPERLY tuned 335i will put more torque down to the wheels?
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
        Tq multiplication blah blah blah....everyone that is serious about modding a m3 gets a blower...why? Bc on the street, without a blower, the e9x m3 isn't a fast car. This is the argument LM makes, and this is what I thought when I test drove a m3. We aren't talking about track performance, I'm talking about driving on the street.

        I cant bring myself to spend more money on a slower car. When BMW gets the next gen m3 on the street,it will be a different story.

        I find it funny that every time a conversation comes up about the m3 having no tq, people start whipping out graphs, tq multiplication, blah blah. Comparing the s65 to a z06, really? Click here to enlarge

        The bottom line is, when you step out of a fbo 335, and turn the key on a e9x m3....it just feels dull
        So, gearing doesn't matter? Torque multiplication is not real? Are you serious?
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        I totally get the whole torque multiplication thru gearing but I'm on the less popular side like lost marine and believe its still no substitute for real engine torque .. Look at the c63 it uses a pretty tall 2.82 final drive with similar individual gear ratios to the m3 . I own a c63 fbo minus headers( for another week or so until installed) and have gotten seat time in a dct m3 even with the gearing and final drive advantage the feeling of torque and pull is no comparison the c63 pushes you back much harder. And the fact I ran against a stock m3 when I was tune/filters only and blew it out of the water multiple times. I even pulled on a s85 v10 powered m6 pretty good that is a big dog version of the s65 (check my history I posted a video of the m6 pull and my YouTube Channel has 3 vids of it to show no fluke) I was also tune/ filters only. Just basing off my experience I'm no expert
        It's because you are feeling what is called "Jerk" - which is the derivative of Acceleration. Acceleration being the derivative of velocity - not that it matters to explain this.

        Basically the human body is extremely "in tune" to feel jerk, not acceleration. Every power pulse of a large displacement engine is felt as "pulling you back in the seat" - whereas in a M3, having less jerk (each pulse of the cylinder isn't producing as much Jerk (think of it like immediate shock) - it doesn't feel like this. Same with a Corvette vs. M3 in the graph - it certainly doesn't feel like this - as @bobS said, it "feels" dull. Don't trust your body, trust numbers.

        A good way to think about this - on earth you are ALWAYS subjected to feeling 1g of it's gravity... Do you ever notice it? No - until you fall down. You only noticed the immediate change in acceleration (falling down/jumping from plane) - this is Jerk.
      1. RnmEvo9's Avatar
        RnmEvo9 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Basically the human body is extremely "in tune" to feel jerk, not acceleration. Every power pulse of a large displacement engine is felt as "pulling you back in the seat" - whereas in a M3, having less jerk (each pulse of the cylinder isn't producing as much Jerk (think of it like immediate shock) - it doesn't feel like this. Same with a Corvette vs. M3 in the graph - it certainly doesn't feel like this - as @bobS said, it "feels" dull. Don't trust your body, trust numbers.
        Absolutely, hence why a properly tuned FBO N54 will always trap significantly higher than a FBO S65. There is no arguing this.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        LOL - yep, one way to look at that.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        I think this is getting all over the place. The point of the argument/debate was that this video is possible. We showed LM's car running (basically stock) a 60-130 time (M3) of 10.76s - and then compared it against some 335i cars (Attachment 31059) - some (most?) that would win - some (less?) that would lose.

        No one here is saying a 500-10000HP 335i is going to lose against a stock or FBO M3 - no one is saying this. The AVERAGE 335i - stock or FBO on pump gas - the one you run into 95% of the time on the road? That's a different story. That's all I am trying to say.

        Instead we are tossing around the fact that gearing doesn't matter (that is a C5 z06 with 405 HP in the graph btw), creating torque at the wheel numbers without factoring in RPM, etc... It's all over the place.

        Again, no one is saying the M3 is unbeatable here - I don't understand the fuss. Looking at roll on power, you can see that they CAN be pretty close - IF the 335i isn't tuned to "rape mode"... Click here to enlarge