Close

    • 335/N54 fanboys get panties in a twist over a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned bolt on 335i

      Oh yes, here we go the millionth time, the ever popular 335 versus M3 discussion. A user posted the video below of a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned 335i in the forums and the N54 fanboys went for the pitchforks and torches. For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase. There is the typical "oh I didn't get an M3 because a tuned 335 is faster" nonsense that N54 fanboys tend to comfort themselves with in the never ending M3 versus 335 debate.


      Even though the 335 in this video may have more power and torque in tuned form which the fanboys love to point out the other side of the coin is that the M3's redline and transmission are a huge advantage. Gearing is an area the M3 simply has an advantage over the 335 in and the transmission makes a big difference as one can see the shift speed in lower gears is really what gives the M3 the gains it sees in the race early on.

      Up top, the tuned 335's horsepower advantage comes into play as the cars spend more time in gear negating the gear change advantage provided by the DCT allowing the 335 to inch up and close the gap.

      This video is a good real world example as without race gas or meth a 335 will struggle against a tuned M3 especially one with DCT. Of course 335 owners will point out they can upgrade their turbos. Then M3 owners will say they can supercharge. Then the debate escalates and escalate and there are dozens of pages to read of M3 and 335 owners essentially throwing feces at each other. BMW fans, just enjoy 335 versus M3 round 400,000 in the video below.

      M3 is the camera car.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: New video-DCT m3 takes down a FBO 335 with jb4, downpipes, FMIC and intake started by Wannbm5 View original post
      Comments 315 Comments
      1. Malaka1's Avatar
        Malaka1 -
        Personally I don't think it is fair to make any comments about this video until more details are released. What map on the JB4 could mean a lot.. I ran a FBO 6MT M3 when I was FBO 6MT stock turbo no meth pump gas JB4 Map 5 and I would pull him down low but he would catch up to me by 120-130. I would say he was around 400whp and I was probably close to that but much more torque. I assume he gained on me at high speeds because of the higher revving motor displacement advantage.

        P.S. I love the M3 but I am torn between the F10 550i and E60 M5 at the moment..
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Sticky front pages an article based on an awful video to generate hits... Even on pump, an FBO 335 (especially a 6AT or DCT) with a good tune will beat an FBO M3.

        /thread
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        @Flinchy - check out my post: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...598#post466598

        Remember it's stock M3 vs. a mid-range tuned 335i, not the top of the barrel. The times show it can happen - how often is another question.

        Regarding midrange torque - remember torque at the crank is different than torque at the wheels. In other words, even though (stock for stock to simplify) the 335i is making more torque at the crank - the M3 is making more at the ground (gearing).

        I don't have any data right now, but have the z06 analogy: Attachment 31058

        The z06 has tons more torque at the crank, but the M gets it at the ground through 1st and most of second gear. That's the benefit of having a high revving engine, take advantage of torque multiplication/gearing.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        What's the problem with putting this on the front page? It's his forum, it's a hot topic, and a great sibling rivalry.
      1. leo985i's Avatar
        leo985i -
        you guys always find a way to make these worthless arguments a 100= pages long. lol
      1. sr20seb's Avatar
        sr20seb -
        How come you didn't make the post with the 350Z beating the DCT M3, with video evidence not cgi, front page news. Where was the headline: "M3 nuthugger gets his panties in a bunch over a stock 350Z spanking M3 DCT."
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
        How come you didn't make the post with the 350Z beating the DCT M3, with video evidence not cgi, front page news. Where was the headline: "M3 nuthugger gets his panties in a bunch over a stock 350Z spanking M3 DCT."
        There is not a stock 350/370z on the planet that will beat a m3
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        What's the problem with putting this on the front page? It's his forum, it's a hot topic, and a great sibling rivalry.
        Bingo.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Sticky front pages an article based on an awful video to generate hits... Even on pump, an FBO 335 (especially a 6AT or DCT) with a good tune will beat an FBO M3.

        /thread
        Even on pump, you're optimistic. And a 335 will need basically perfect mods.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Malaka1 Click here to enlarge
        Personally I don't think it is fair to make any comments about this video until more details are released. What map on the JB4 could mean a lot.. I ran a FBO 6MT M3 when I was FBO 6MT stock turbo no meth pump gas JB4 Map 5 and I would pull him down low but he would catch up to me by 120-130. I would say he was around 400whp and I was probably close to that but much more torque. I assume he gained on me at high speeds because of the higher revving motor displacement advantage.

        P.S. I love the M3 but I am torn between the F10 550i and E60 M5 at the moment..
        This isn't supposed to be super scientific. It's a video. It shows what can happen. This can happen. We aren't comparing perfect situations. The video is what happened.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        but how? when it has less midrange torque (therefore power)?
        How does it have less power when power is torque x hp / 5250? What does another 1500 rpm do?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
        Hey, posting a video of an M3 beating a 335i is fine, but... oh wait, that didn't happen. Not only is the OP spewing bull$#@!, but the 335 clearly pulled ahead before the end of the race. This is why the OP is getting frowned upon like a Catholic priest in a Chuck E. Cheese. Does the fact that a well modded N54 beat an M3 make me feel like king nut sack colossus? No, because it was up against at stock M3, so it's not really a huge accomplishment. The issue is the OP is full of $#@!.
        The op has issues. No doubt.

        But... N54 owners are treating this with bias.
      1. RnmEvo9's Avatar
        RnmEvo9 -
        Both on pump gas and the N54 has a female Asian driver FTMFW!!

      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        ^^What exactly does this video prove?
      1. RnmEvo9's Avatar
        RnmEvo9 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        ^^What exactly does this video prove?
        What Sticky says: This isn't supposed to be super scientific. It's a video. It shows what can happen. This can happen. We aren't comparing perfect situations. The video is what happened.

        Click here to enlarge
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        That wasn't even a race though lol. They just took turns jumping the gun then letting off early with one flying by the other at the end. That video doesn't support either side Click here to enlarge
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        @Flinchy - check out my post: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...598#post466598

        Remember it's stock M3 vs. a mid-range tuned 335i, not the top of the barrel. The times show it can happen - how often is another question.
        yeah i saw that post... i'm not sure what you're trying to point out?

        re: gearing... we're talking 250~ft-lb from the M3 at 3.65:1 6MT, 3.15:1 DCT with shorter bag ratios.... and 335i we're looking more like 475ft-lb peak, 250ft-lb from 3250rpm, 350ft-lb at redline, lets go 400-425 average from 3500-redline... sooooo... 1309ft-lb average (not counting gearbox) from the 6MT N54 to 962.5 on a 6MT M3

        now gear ratios taken into account for M3:

        DCT: 4.780, 2.933, 2.153, 3.15 final drive - 3764, 2312, 1695
        6MT: 4.055, 2.386, 1.582, 3.65 final drive - 3700, 2177, 1443

        now N54:

        6mt: 4.06, 2.4, 1.58, 3.08 Final Drive - 5314, 3141.6, 2068.22

        so on what planet does an E9x M3 put down more torque to the ground than a properly modified N54 powered car?
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        How does it have less power when power is torque x hp / 5250? What does another 1500 rpm do?
        uhhhh it has less power due to that very formula?

        throughout the rev range, the N54 puts down ~21% more torque to the ground on average with a 17% lower redline (assuming 7000rpm vs 8250)

        and due to it putting down more torque at the crank PEAK... well the above numbers don't even tell the full story as to how much more power is put down at peak torque.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        uhhhh it has less power due to that very formula?

        throughout the rev range, the N54 puts down ~21% more torque to the ground on average with a 17% lower redline (assuming 7000rpm vs 8250)

        and due to it putting down more torque at the crank PEAK... well the above numbers don't even tell the full story as to how much more power is put down at peak torque.
        You're working with what charts man? The point being ultimately rpm can be an advantage even with less torque.
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        @Flinchy - check out my post: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...598#post466598

        Remember it's stock M3 vs. a mid-range tuned 335i, not the top of the barrel. The times show it can happen - how often is another question.

        Regarding midrange torque - remember torque at the crank is different than torque at the wheels. In other words, even though (stock for stock to simplify) the 335i is making more torque at the crank - the M3 is making more at the ground (gearing).

        I don't have any data right now, but have the z06 analogy: Attachment 31058

        The z06 has tons more torque at the crank, but the M gets it at the ground through 1st and most of second gear. That's the benefit of having a high revving engine, take advantage of torque multiplication/gearing.
        I totally get the whole torque multiplication thru gearing but I'm on the less popular side like lost marine and believe its still no substitute for real engine torque .. Look at the c63 it uses a pretty tall 2.82 final drive with similar individual gear ratios to the m3 . I own a c63 fbo minus headers( for another week or so until installed) and have gotten seat time in a dct m3 even with the gearing and final drive advantage the feeling of torque and pull is no comparison the c63 pushes you back much harder. And the fact I ran against a stock m3 when I was tune/filters only and blew it out of the water multiple times. I even pulled on a s85 v10 powered m6 pretty good that is a big dog version of the s65 (check my history I posted a video of the m6 pull and my YouTube Channel has 3 vids of it to show no fluke) I was also tune/ filters only. Just basing off my experience I'm no expert