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    • All Boost is not equal, comparing PSI To PSI : Things to understand Before Supercharging an E9X M3 S65 V8

      Foreword by admin: Gentlemen, many M3 enthusiasts and car modification enthusiasts in general tend to get this wrong. Active Autowerke put up a quick article explaining that one can not compare superchargers especially for the M3 platform simply by looking at the PSI figures. 7 psi on a Vortech T-Trim and 7 psi on a Rotrex blower do not tell the whole story as far as how much air (measured in CFM, or cubic feet per minute) is getting into the motor and at what rpm. PSI does not explain the torque curve, max CFM the blower is capable of, or the compressor map. A good read by Active Autowerke explaining this below even for those familiar with boost being a measure of backpressure.

      One other thing to remember, a car can make more power and torque even when boost or PSI drops with changes to the exhaust system such as the headers, manifold, heads, or a multitude of other areas.


      BimmerBoost members, I have been getting tons of questions regarding Psi and power output lately and it seems there is a ton of misinformation out there and it is spreading like wild fire. Below I will try and explain to the best of my knowledge how this all works. So Here it Goes!

      Things to know before reading:

      The boost (psi) you have come to know and love is being read at the intake manifold only. PSI does not tell you how much air actually makes it into the intake ports during their short open interval. It's only a measurement of force exerted on the intake plenum. With that said Lets get started!

      What is PSI ?

      First you need to understand 1PSI = 1LB force per square inch and not Pounds of air per square inch. A square inch is a unit of area, and not volume. 7 PSI = Seven pounds of force exerted on every square inch of internal surface area of the intake manifold and intake ports only. This says nothing about how much air is actually getting into the engine If this were the case it would be read as pressure per cubic inch. Psi is just how much force the air is exerting as it gets force fed from the Supercharger compressor.

      So to sum it you can calculate the air density based on how much pressure is exerted, but PSI is not a measure of volume.

      Comparing Superchargers:

      There are many misguided comparisons regarding blowers floating around on this forum so to start lets talk CFM "Cubic feet per minute." CFM is a non-SI unit of measurement of air-flow that indicates how many cubic feet of air pass by a stationary point in one minute. Or to simplify it is a unit for measuring the rate of flow of air volume into or out of a space.

      The wheel size and outlet volume of a supercharger compressor has a great impact on the CFM ( speed the air is actually traveling through the manifold" A large supercharge can flow much faster and requires less psi to make the same HP. This large volume of air leaves the Supercharger and enters the bottleneck which is the intake tract speeding up just as water speeds up just like in a river when you hit a bottle neck. You white water rafters know what Im talking about.

      The air flowing from a smaller supercharger on the other hand is flowing into the same size river, but this time the river is large in relation to the charge volume so the air just creeps along and will require more psi to hit the same hp.

      Notes: A larger supercharger can show less manifold psi compared to the smaller blower which needs higher Psi but the flow into the engine will be the same and make the same hp. All things being equal in this example temps,tune ect..

      Heat Soak:

      Heat soak is the systems lack of ability to get rid of excess heat much like having too small a radiator for a car.

      We measure Heat soak from the manifold in the form of Intake air temperature "IAT". When a gas "air" is heated, it's molecules get farther apart and it's density decreases while it's volume increases. However, if it is heated and has no room to expand, density will go down and volume stays the same, but it's pressure will increase. This is a generic property of all gases."

      So basically if you get heatsoak, and your boost doesn't increase, you're losing efficiency and in turn flow. This will result in lower hp numbers until lower Iat temperatures return.

      Conclusion:

      The air coming from the smaller blower will travel forward into the intake ports with a lower velocity than that from the larger blower for the reasons that we established in our "river bottlnecK" example above.

      So while both superchargers are exerting the same amount of force on the intake ports/ manifold the air from the larger blower is approaching the intake ports at a much higher velocity and therefore more will get in before the port closes.

      --And this ladies and gentlemen is why you cannot compare Psi from blower A to blower B.

      If you have any questions or if I left anything out please let me know.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: Comparing PSI To PSI : Things to understand Before Supercharging started by Andrew@activeautowerke View original post
      Comments 40 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Yes but that was just for flow testing.. I would not run over 600whp
        Just wanted to point it out.

        I would Click here to enlarge
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Personally if he knows 9 psi is going to blow the engine for sure then running 7-8 psi is crazy! 1 psi is going to blow the engine -_- Enough with the nonsense already.
      1. KB's Avatar
        KB -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        That would be a 17 page debate on other forums though
        Other forums are gay though
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        625 kit running 8-9 psi hmm.. Gauges are sweet though!

      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Personally if he knows 9 psi is going to blow the engine for sure then running 7-8 psi is crazy! 1 psi is going to blow the engine -_- Enough with the nonsense already.
        Who claimed 9 psi was going to blow anything? With what blower? With what fuel?
      1. DFM's Avatar
        DFM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        625 kit running 8-9 psi hmm.. Gauges are sweet though!

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=3X8NotnXkrI
        That is $#@!ing cool. I wonder how accurate the calculated hp/tq numbers are though. the hp seemed way to low...
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Who claimed 9 psi was going to blow anything? With what blower? With what fuel?

        Roman did and the gang follows along.

        I actually made a list of all the lies and excuses I have to hear day to day.

        ESS Fanboy logic-

        9 psi= Bad/BOOM
        8 Psi= SAFE/No problem
        13.0:1 Afr =Pulls timing/No problem
        No Intercooler= No problem/ We don't suffer from heat soak (immune) + Power goes up!
        Meth= The Devil/ If it fails your engine will instantly blow.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        How the $#@! are you immmune from heat soak with no intercooler?
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        How the $#@! are you immmune from heat soak with no intercooler?
        Beats me they pulled out a graph showing the car ran faster 1/4 times the hotter it got. We are talking 170 Iat
        lol


        Pulled the reply

        BuckRodgers
        Private Click here to enlarge

        Drives: BMW
        Join Date: Dec 2012
        Location: USA

        Posts: 97iTrader: ()



        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke Click here to enlarge
        The only issue with running a non intercooled kit is the obvious heat build up. Once your Iat's start rising your hp will start dropping and there will be no way to bring it back.

        Have you ever logged iat's on the road Chris?


        The customer reviews of the ESS VT1 kit tell a different story. I have not seen any customer complaints on power with this kit.

        AIT's can run in the 175+ range and this car will still make power as long as the fuel quality is good enough and the tuning is running rich enough. The DME will only limit timing if the car is running too lean or the car has crap fuel in it. My VT1-550 runs in the 130-140 range during 85 deg days at the track and I have 0 issues with power. The ESS and VF kits pull cold air direct from the front of the vehicle which helps alot VS having a filter stuffed in the engine bay. Starting with a lower air temp to begin with can go a long way in a non intercooled design along with proper tuning. Saying a supercharged car simply needs an intercooler to make consistant power is ignorant. I have seen intercooled cars suffer from heat soak and need to cool down between laps due to poor design, too much boost, restrictions to factory coolers etc..
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Beats me they pulled out a graph showing the car ran faster 1/4 times the hotter it got. We are talking 170 Iat
        lol


        Pulled the reply

        BuckRodgers
        Private http://www.e90post.com/forums/titles/private.gif

        Drives: BMW
        Join Date: Dec 2012
        Location: USA

        Posts: 97iTrader: ()


        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke http://www.m3post.com/forums/multisi...s/viewpost.gif
        The only issue with running a non intercooled kit is the obvious heat build up. Once your Iat's start rising your hp will start dropping and there will be no way to bring it back.

        Have you ever logged iat's on the road Chris?


        The customer reviews of the ESS VT1 kit tell a different story. I have not seen any customer complaints on power with this kit.

        AIT's can run in the 175+ range and this car will still make power as long as the fuel quality is good enough and the tuning is running rich enough. The DME will only limit timing if the car is running too lean or the car has crap fuel in it. My VT1-550 runs in the 130-140 range during 85 deg days at the track and I have 0 issues with power. The ESS and VF kits pull cold air direct from the front of the vehicle which helps alot VS having a filter stuffed in the engine bay. Starting with a lower air temp to begin with can go a long way in a non intercooled design along with proper tuning. Saying a supercharged car simply needs an intercooler to make consistant power is ignorant. I have seen intercooled cars suffer from heat soak and need to cool down between laps due to poor design, too much boost, restrictions to factory coolers etc..
        no heatsoak? ok. hold on..
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Notice time stamps
        run 18-3:33:50
        run 19- 3:34:34

        Attachment 30122
        Nice little heatsoak drop there

        Now, notice that testing meth on/off, it combats heatsoak, but ultimately cannot beat it out.. also notice timestamps- no glory runs, just testing power loss from heatsoak, lets see it uncorrected and zero smoothing for a no frills evaluation

        Attachment 30124
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Notice time stamps
        run 18-3:33:50
        run 19- 3:34:34

        Attachment 30122
        Nice little heatsoak drop there

        Now, notice that testing meth on/off, it combats heatsoak, but ultimately cannot beat it out.. also notice timestamps- no glory runs, just testing power loss from heatsoak, lets see it uncorrected and zero smoothing for a no frills evaluation

        Attachment 30124
        Bottom was with meth? 800cc nozzle?
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Bottom was with meth? 800cc nozzle?
        i believe it was 450 or 500cc nozzle. i was turning it on/off throughout
      1. VCMPower's Avatar
        VCMPower -
        Andrew: i like how you ask roman about the lean afr again and he changed the topic to meth. how is it there kit is the only one going lean when every other kit making the same power can run safe afr. not seeing a fuel flow problem with them but i guess it happens when you make 3psi and hit over 600whp heheh. what injectors they using cheapen out and maxing them out or they are just button mashing like a noob
      1. akh23456's Avatar
        akh23456 -
        lol that guy is a idiot LM. Just look at the graphs when they aren't smoothing 5 the drive ability sure looks horrible.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VCMPower Click here to enlarge
        Andrew: i like how you ask roman about the lean afr again and he changed the topic to meth. how is it there kit is the only one going lean when every other kit making the same power can run safe afr. not seeing a fuel flow problem with them but i guess it happens when you make 3psi and hit over 600whp heheh. what injectors they using cheapen out and maxing them out or they are just button mashing like a noob

        Not sure why they wont answer that question. I know they did to a customer and told him that's how they tuned it and it was pulling timing so it was safe. Unfortunately the customer doesn't know this actually creates more heat if the power does not drop off.

        As for running out of injector we aren't maxing out our level 3 injectors or the stock fuel pump yet with the ysi at 600+ hp.
      1. VCMPower's Avatar
        VCMPower -
        You guys ever going to show some numbers of the ysi.
      1. akh23456's Avatar
        akh23456 -
        i just want to hear this ysi please. do i need to come to miami to hear it lol?
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
        i just want to hear this ysi please. do i need to come to miami to hear it lol?
        Yes you do lol
      1. VCMPower's Avatar
        VCMPower -
        Don't be a tease