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    • And the BMW N54 horsepower record officially stands at 725 wheel horsepower - E92 335i with Vargas VTX-R 63 Stage 3 turbo upgrade, Cobb Flash, and PTF Pro Tune

      Well, it seems the back and forth of N54 tuning horsepower records is over... for now. Earlier this month Vargas Turbo Tech and Pro Tuning Freaks (with a Cobb flash) set the N54 hosrepower record at 693 wheel horsepower. That basically obliterated what anyone else had hit on this platform. A competing tuner with a single turbo (the Vargas VTX63 upgrade consists of twin turbos) N54 upgrade kit out of nowhere pulled out suspect numbers that eeked out a few more wheel horsepower.

      This became an ego pissing match of sorts but Vargas and Pro Tuning Freaks went back to the dyno to make some adjustments and managed to surprisingly quickly and easily take the horsepower record right back (and where it rightfully belongs due to the breakthrough being thanks to the Vargas work with the High Pressure Fuel Pump) with a 725 wheel horsepower pull.

      A video is included below along with two graphs. The E92 335i is equipped with a Pro Tuning Freaks pro tuning using the Cobb flash system, 109 octane race gas, meth injection, and of course the Vargas Turbo Technologies VTX-R 63 (GTX2863R) twin turbo upgrade and HPFP upgrade.

      Congratulations to Vargas, PTF, and Cobb for pushing the platform into new territory.





      This article was originally published in forum thread: Final VTT VTX63R Testing 725 WHP / 609WTQ PTF Pro Tune / COBB Flash started by VargasTurboTech View original post
      Comments 407 Comments
      1. whoosh's Avatar
        whoosh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
        I can't see it. Already gone?
        http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831564
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        THIS. I agree 100% shop cars don't mean squat until a customer can bolt the kit on, get a tune from someone who knows what they are doing and replicate the results. We literally took a pretty stock car and made a monster out of it and want people to be able to do the same thing, that is why I went twins, that is why I kept the vacuum controlled internal gates. I literally HATE internal gates, I would never run them on a custom turbo build, I laugh when people do it. This particular platform called for it because of the DME's vacuum control over the gates, period thats the only reason we went that way. The customer factor is another reason we stopped at our goal as we would like to see the pushing done by tuners and customers as their results are really the most valuable in the end.
        Tony,

        I wasn't trying to single you or your test mule of a car out. I like the way you brought your product out to the market and your attitude regarding tuning and future customers is spot on. Your data capture and updates are certainly refreshing.

        Much respect to you for not getting the proverbial panties in a bunch. As you said, if the customers cannot replicate the results - what are they actually buying?

        Good $#@! man!
        Mike
      1. BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
        BEAR-AvHistory -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        It is a reasonable question...
        Reasonable questions that they don't want to answer are automatically trolls.
      1. VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamia2super Click here to enlarge
        shouldn't you do more r&d then just a couple dyno pulls before releasing it to the general public? to see if any problems arise? or do you feel that confident with the kit ?
        If 2 months on the road, 500+ maybe a 1000 WOT pulls on the street and dyno, 2 la trips, one trip to shift sector, and being used as daily commuter for 30 miles each way for 3 weeks without a single issue isn't enough "Real World" R&D for you. Then sorry man not sure what to tell ya, but saying the car has a "few dyno pulls on it, means you are not paying attention to anything and just trolling around.
      1. E90Company's Avatar
        E90Company -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        If 2 months on the road, 500+ maybe a 1000 WOT pulls on the street and dyno, 2 la trips, one trip to shift sector, and being used as daily commuter for 30 miles each way for 3 weeks without a single issue isn't enough "Real World" R&D for you. Then sorry man not sure what to tell ya, but saying the car has a "few dyno pulls on it, means you are not paying attention to anything and just trolling around.
        Well said
      1. crazylegs's Avatar
        crazylegs -
        @lamia2super has never been one to troll I think his questions are genuine from the way he's asking. he really is under informed I believe.
      1. BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
        BEAR-AvHistory -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by crazylegs Click here to enlarge
        @lamia2super has never been one to troll I think his questions are genuine from the way he's asking. he really is under informed I believe.
        His question reads more like a statement than a question
      1. Carl Morris's Avatar
        Carl Morris -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        a 911 turbo and a GTR are dd 10 second cars. They have the ready chassis and LC capability; this vehicle does not without extreme chassis modifications, very aggressive slicks and potential gearing changes. In other words it's either setup as a race / track car or a street car... in street form it cannot be a DD 10 second car... sorry.
        AWD. It will happen.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
        AWD. It will happen.
        It's gonna take a LOT more then a VTT S3 on a 335xi to make it comparable to a GTR or Turbo P-Car
      1. lamia2super's Avatar
        lamia2super -
        whoa i feel like everyone is coming after me lol

        i was just getting at what most of you said that its still unknown what it can take.

        with recent enlighten information the prototype seems to be holding up well. I would have thought with the extra heat and power things would have begun to break or some issue would have come up, especially it being a prototype and all. I don't know many people who get things right the first time, but if your saying you did that's great news! im stunned with what a stock motor has been able to handle thus far. ill have my engine build done soon so ill be needing a kit that can push it closer to its new limits

        it would be exciting to see a twin turbo kit go up against the single turbo kit in a autocross eventClick here to enlarge and more of those 1 mile events!
      1. xbox_fan's Avatar
        xbox_fan -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamia2super Click here to enlarge
        im not talking bad about it just giving a suggestion because its always easier to work on a local car. besides from the videos on YouTube i dont really know anything about this kit
        This is the reason the first to sign-up got a nice discount. If you order now you pay full price.

        I think its a great approach since most of us wants customer data asap Click here to enlarge
      1. StinkyM's Avatar
        StinkyM -
        Let me contribute to the 1/4 mile, 60-130, dyno and roll racing debate. Realistically, there is no better reference for data. If you can provide all of them then that's literally the best way you can represent your data. I have been drag racing for a measly 8 years now, street racing for the same amount of time, and researching for 10 years on the topics.

        1/4 mile racing has so many variables it's ridiculous. You have to know the setup of the car in it's entirety before you can speculate. This includes but is not limited to, driver, driver's weight, fuel load, suspension settings, tire pressure, tire compound, tire size as this has an effect on gearing, transmission, engine/drivetrain health, elevation, track prep, and the list goes on and on. For those 10 second runs, the runs will need to be done on a perfect day and at a great track. Too many variables with runs being done at sea level but slower tracks on the west coast vs faster tracks on the east coast. For instance a car run at Famosa or whatever it's called in CA will guaranteed run slower than what it would at Atco for instance. Atco has proven records for so many years, it's the reason companies develop a kit and test their cars their. The numbers do not lie. Last year a bolt on 13' GT500 was running mid 9's. Has anyone seen these times replicated? Most are doing 10's and some 11's. This is not the best way to compare relative data. Track prep is another huge one too. The days you run on vary incredibly. Whether you went on a T&T day or an actual event. Events will always have better prep no matter what.

        Trap speeds are not good either, as too many people swap wheels/tires etc. This has an effect as well as it affects gearing in the end of the run. Since we like using data here's some data. Someone using a standard 6mt 335i with a 255/35/18 rear tire has a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear speed of 70, 107, 142 mph respectively. For someone using a 295/35/19 that number becomes 73, 111, 147 mph respectively. The numbers look negligable. But looking at a dyno and power at peak, the person using the bigger tires has an advantage of staying in boost for a longer period of time. This is just a small change to show a simple variation. Something as small as changing wheels and tires. We could sit here all day and cover the basics of drivetrain swaps, running different ring and pinion gears, lsd's, etc etc and really break down the difference and how it affects trap speeds. Another major variable is shifting speeds. Is anyone logging their shift times during these runs? How much quicker is the VTT shifting than the RB or the Vishnu? Too many variables and really if we wanted to break it all down we could. Hell, I lost 5lbs by changing to a different set of tires. Something as crazy as that.

        Roll racing is another common way to test performance. I feel roll racing has less variables and is more driver involved than anything. When you can actually time it perfectly and get a clean run, you will know which car is faster. Roll racing is better, because it involves both cars to be present at the same time, the same day, in the same conditions. This will alleviate elevation, weather, and some other factoring conditions that dynos, 1/4 mile runs, and other racing forms do not take into account. Roll racing, though, like the others is tough to compare because of the driver involvement though. For instance, some people prefer to get a good jump on the start, so their turbos are spooled or just to have the nitrous hit as soon as they hit the line. This is not a good way to judge a race. Cars at this caliber will be completely one sided. I have seen this many times with motorcycles. A bike gets the jump on another and completely walks away. Give them an equal hit and they are even. It's all driver involved. Elevation has a huge effect as well. Some cars are tuned at sea level on a 50* day. Some are tuned in the middle of the summer in the heat. This has an effect as well. Elevation will vary, so your car was tuned at a DA of 100' but you're running it at an event with a DA of 1400'. This will have an effect on your setup and more than likely your parameters and settings may need some adjusting. I saw this a lot living in SD. People were denied tuning in Colorado because of the 2000' difference in elevation. You will be more than likely running with less power than what you tuned with. I know some systems have sensors in place to adjust for elevation and things but sometimes they need to be readjusted. Follow me here.

        Dyno numbers suck. Too many ways to manipulate a dyno. Too many different types of dynos and how they calculate their data. Enough said. Unless you're dynoing and proving gains, it's pointless.

        Lastly, we have 60-130 runs. 60-130 are simple, quick, and easy to regulate. No more than a 3% upgrade or downgrade, and have fun. It will record your conditions. Here's another problem, not everyone has access to a slope with a 3% downgrade at sea level or better conditions. These runs will vary greatly as well. Gearing as shown earlier will vary, your cars aerodynamic upgrades such as a modified bumper, or additional lip kit will have an effect. How much the driver weighs and how much fuel you have on board matters as well. So many variables when it comes to this stuff. If you want to run as fast as possible, call up your 130# driver, wait for a 30* day, find a 3% downgrade, grab a set of light wheels and tires, lower your car, have a front, mid, and rear diffuser that's air tunnel proven, and then once you're down to just enough fuel to make one run, do it. So many companies have done this and people believe the hype and are all over it. UGR did this and it worked. Their shop cars were untouchable back in 07-08. They claimed "1500" but their shop car was making 17-1900 hp. It wasn't until recently that the customer cars finally started getting these numbers, but their shop car now I am quite certain makes more than what it used to. Gotta stay ahead of the game right?

        Unless you go out there and provide data for 60-130's, 1/4 mile times, trap speeds, dyno numbers, anything else is completely irrelevant. You might make 600 hp on a dyno, but run mid 12's at 110 mph, and have a 60-130 of 10.86. Do you really make 600hp?
      1. ajsalida's Avatar
        ajsalida -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
        AWD. It will happen.
        +1. Not understanding a lot of the discussion here. Character/marketing issues aside, Shiv & customers poor 1/4 mile times are more reflective of the fact that RWD e9x platform is not such a great drag car. It is supposed to HANDLE well, which it does. I would expect RWD Vargas cars to also not do so well in the 1/4. By the time you're pushing 700+ RWHP it is not about the motor, tune, or whose turbo kit is the awesome-est it is about getting that power to the ground.

        The AWD 911 turbo and GTR obviously get around this. From what I have read even a 911 GT2 is hard to hook up and that is a rear engined car.

        Anyway bash Shiv all you want but I predict anyone no matter what kit running 600+ RWHP will find it difficult to put down. That is the chassis's fault not the tuner or kit builder. At some point I hope to see Xi's with beefed up TC's and AWD hardware try to put this kind of power down in the 1/4, that is probably what it will take to start scaring 911's and GTR's.

        Not a drag racer myself, it just seems this is obvious. If you want big power + handling + 1/4 mile with no issues you need AWD.

        edit: and furthermore, if anyone does manage to hook up a RWD e9x reliably into the low 10's, it may be at the expense of handling and street drivability. Which kind of misses the point, to me at least.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
        Let me contribute to the 1/4 mile, 60-130, dyno and roll racing debate. Realistically, there is no better reference for data. If you can provide all of them then that's literally the best way you can represent your data. I have been drag racing for a measly 8 years now, street racing for the same amount of time, and researching for 10 years on the topics.

        1/4 mile racing has so many variables it's ridiculous. You have to know the setup of the car in it's entirety before you can speculate. This includes but is not limited to, driver, driver's weight, fuel load, suspension settings, tire pressure, tire compound, tire size as this has an effect on gearing, transmission, engine/drivetrain health, elevation, track prep, and the list goes on and on. For those 10 second runs, the runs will need to be done on a perfect day and at a great track. Too many variables with runs being done at sea level but slower tracks on the west coast vs faster tracks on the east coast. For instance a car run at Famosa or whatever it's called in CA will guaranteed run slower than what it would at Atco for instance. Atco has proven records for so many years, it's the reason companies develop a kit and test their cars their. The numbers do not lie. Last year a bolt on 13' GT500 was running mid 9's. Has anyone seen these times replicated? Most are doing 10's and some 11's. This is not the best way to compare relative data. Track prep is another huge one too. The days you run on vary incredibly. Whether you went on a T&T day or an actual event. Events will always have better prep no matter what.

        Trap speeds are not good either, as too many people swap wheels/tires etc. This has an effect as well as it affects gearing in the end of the run. Since we like using data here's some data. Someone using a standard 6mt 335i with a 255/35/18 rear tire has a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear speed of 70, 107, 142 mph respectively. For someone using a 295/35/19 that number becomes 73, 111, 147 mph respectively. The numbers look negligable. But looking at a dyno and power at peak, the person using the bigger tires has an advantage of staying in boost for a longer period of time. This is just a small change to show a simple variation. Something as small as changing wheels and tires. We could sit here all day and cover the basics of drivetrain swaps, running different ring and pinion gears, lsd's, etc etc and really break down the difference and how it affects trap speeds. Another major variable is shifting speeds. Is anyone logging their shift times during these runs? How much quicker is the VTT shifting than the RB or the Vishnu? Too many variables and really if we wanted to break it all down we could. Hell, I lost 5lbs by changing to a different set of tires. Something as crazy as that.

        Roll racing is another common way to test performance. I feel roll racing has less variables and is more driver involved than anything. When you can actually time it perfectly and get a clean run, you will know which car is faster. Roll racing is better, because it involves both cars to be present at the same time, the same day, in the same conditions. This will alleviate elevation, weather, and some other factoring conditions that dynos, 1/4 mile runs, and other racing forms do not take into account. Roll racing, though, like the others is tough to compare because of the driver involvement though. For instance, some people prefer to get a good jump on the start, so their turbos are spooled or just to have the nitrous hit as soon as they hit the line. This is not a good way to judge a race. Cars at this caliber will be completely one sided. I have seen this many times with motorcycles. A bike gets the jump on another and completely walks away. Give them an equal hit and they are even. It's all driver involved. Elevation has a huge effect as well. Some cars are tuned at sea level on a 50* day. Some are tuned in the middle of the summer in the heat. This has an effect as well. Elevation will vary, so your car was tuned at a DA of 100' but you're running it at an event with a DA of 1400'. This will have an effect on your setup and more than likely your parameters and settings may need some adjusting. I saw this a lot living in SD. People were denied tuning in Colorado because of the 2000' difference in elevation. You will be more than likely running with less power than what you tuned with. I know some systems have sensors in place to adjust for elevation and things but sometimes they need to be readjusted. Follow me here.

        Dyno numbers suck. Too many ways to manipulate a dyno. Too many different types of dynos and how they calculate their data. Enough said. Unless you're dynoing and proving gains, it's pointless.

        Lastly, we have 60-130 runs. 60-130 are simple, quick, and easy to regulate. No more than a 3% upgrade or downgrade, and have fun. It will record your conditions. Here's another problem, not everyone has access to a slope with a 3% downgrade at sea level or better conditions. These runs will vary greatly as well. Gearing as shown earlier will vary, your cars aerodynamic upgrades such as a modified bumper, or additional lip kit will have an effect. How much the driver weighs and how much fuel you have on board matters as well. So many variables when it comes to this stuff. If you want to run as fast as possible, call up your 130# driver, wait for a 30* day, find a 3% downgrade, grab a set of light wheels and tires, lower your car, have a front, mid, and rear diffuser that's air tunnel proven, and then once you're down to just enough fuel to make one run, do it. So many companies have done this and people believe the hype and are all over it. UGR did this and it worked. Their shop cars were untouchable back in 07-08. They claimed "1500" but their shop car was making 17-1900 hp. It wasn't until recently that the customer cars finally started getting these numbers, but their shop car now I am quite certain makes more than what it used to. Gotta stay ahead of the game right?

        Unless you go out there and provide data for 60-130's, 1/4 mile times, trap speeds, dyno numbers, anything else is completely irrelevant. You might make 600 hp on a dyno, but run mid 12's at 110 mph, and have a 60-130 of 10.86. Do you really make 600hp?
        Very well put. After all that's been said here I say 60-130 is the easiest/closest of comparisons.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajsalida Click here to enlarge
        +1. Not understanding a lot of the discussion here. Character/marketing issues aside, Shiv & customers poor 1/4 mile times are more reflective of the fact that RWD e9x platform is not such a great drag car. It is supposed to HANDLE well, which it does. I would expect RWD Vargas cars to also not do so well in the 1/4. By the time you're pushing 700+ RWHP it is not about the motor, tune, or whose turbo kit is the awesome-est it is about getting that power to the ground.

        The AWD 911 turbo and GTR obviously get around this. From what I have read even a 911 GT2 is hard to hook up and that is a rear engined car.

        Anyway bash Shiv all you want but I predict anyone no matter what kit running 600+ RWHP will find it difficult to put down. That is the chassis's fault not the tuner or kit builder. At some point I hope to see Xi's with beefed up TC's and AWD hardware try to put this kind of power down in the 1/4, that is probably what it will take to start scaring 911's and GTR's.

        Not a drag racer myself, it just seems this is obvious. If you want big power + handling + 1/4 mile with no issues you need AWD.

        edit: and furthermore, if anyone does manage to hook up a RWD e9x reliably into the low 10's, it may be at the expense of handling and street drivability. Which kind of misses the point, to me at least.
        Its a matter of details and lots of practice, TONS. With full torque not hitting down low like on the stock frames 60' times will suffer so ETs will suffer. I don't expect huge ET drops in any of the big kits shown yet unless they use nitrous to get boost off the line and get the mass of the car moving quick. However, traps should be up there if you ensure you have traction.

        I do expect 6MTs to do well in the 60-130 as their gearing is setup great for that sort of racing. 3.46 final drive with big tires on the back WILL be even better as long as you don't have to shift into 5th at the end.
      1. ajsalida's Avatar
        ajsalida -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
        Its a matter of details and lots of practice, TONS. With full torque not hitting down low like on the stock frames 60' times will suffer so ETs will suffer. I don't expect huge ET drops in any of the big kits shown yet unless they use nitrous to get boost off the line and get the mass of the car moving quick. However, traps should be up there if you ensure you have traction.

        I do expect 6MTs to do well in the 60-130 as their gearing is setup great for that sort of racing. 3.46 final drive with big tires on the back WILL be even better as long as you don't have to shift into 5th at the end.
        Agree completely. Consider the recent ZL1 Camaro. Supercharged, mid 600 crank HP stock. Plenty of low end TQ. When it first came out one of the big tuners, Lingenfelter or Hennessy (can't remember) came out with a upgrade kit well into the 700's (pulley head work, ECU etc.) , and with much fanfare announced they were going for the 10's in the 1/4 mile. Well it turned out that wasn't so easy. Details of hooking up RWD IRS that handles well is very hard. Ended up on drag slicks and skinny fronts, some rear end lock downs and barely into 10's. Practice practice and fine details. Is it worth it? All the road racing engineering that went into the ZL1 is now gone, for a few tenths in the 1/4.

        Whereas my mom could climb into a built AWD 911 turbo or GTR and run 10's (or lower) all day long.
      1. Sered's Avatar
        Sered -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamia2super Click here to enlarge
        it would be exciting to see a twin turbo kit go up against the single turbo kit in a autocross eventClick here to enlarge and more of those 1 mile events!
        You're looking at the wrong car, friend. I'd bet stock turbos or maybe Vargas Stage 2s or RBs would be far superior in an auto-x event vs a comparatively laggy and less responsive ST or TT setup anyway.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        To measure a car's performance, I rely on 60-130 times the most. 1/4 mile has just way too many variables. Besides, there are next to no dragstrips in Europe and it's not really something which can be done on an open road.
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        The measures measure the best what they measure. Let's "upgrade" a N54 from say 600hp capable turbo to 1000hp capable turbo. 60-130 got better, but your car got a lot slower Click here to enlarge ..for auto-x. No measure alone describes the overall performance.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Of course..great thing is everyone needs to consider their goals with the car..i'm a hp junkie Click here to enlarge