• ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results?

      There are going to be several built motor supercharged S65 V8 M3 V8 setups starting to roam the streets this year. ESS will have the VT2-725, Gintani will have their Stage III and Stage III+, and Active Autowerke will have their level 4. Each takes a different approach with ESS using the same Vortech V3Si blower their kits already employ, Gintani offering Vortech T-Trim, V3, and YSI options, and Active Autowerke employing a Rotrex C-38 but is able to accommodate other blowers as well.

      Here is the different between a VT3-725 and a VT2-625 supercharger setup, both on DCT M3's with meth in SAE correction:


      645 wheel for the built motor setup and 586 wheel for the stock internal setup. VT2-650 kits claim to be over 600 wheel on stock internals so one has to ask themselves if it is worth the cost to build a motor for only 50 wheel horsepower? $15,000+ on top of the supercharger kit for 50 wheel? Sure this power will likely be more reliable but one has to scratch their head at this price for performance ratio. It certainly makes sense to upgrade to a VT3 setup if one were to take the stock motor too far though.

      The Vortech blower used here is approaching its limit. For a built motor application, it would seem to be a bit undersized as 12 psi is not providing all that much versus the 7.5 psi of the stock internal kit partially due to the lower compression. To really see solid gains a bigger blower is necessary. Gintani has shown up to 16.5 psi with a Vortech YSI thus far and higher dyno results on the lower reading Dyno Dynamics dyno.

      Hopefully a comparison of the three major built motor setups will be able to be made soon.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 173 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        The existence of a commercial product doesn't convince me there is an issue
        How about people racing the cars on the track buying said product? Do people invest in $7k products for fun?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        simply that there is a market for said aftermarket item.
        Exactly, there is a market for it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'd like someone to explain to me, on a technical level, how they have concluded that there is an issue.
        You've seen this? http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...MW-do-a-recall
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        How about people racing the cars on the track buying said product? Do people invest in $7k products for fun?
        Yah - a ton of them actually. I bought a ~$2k, non-functional lip because I think it looks cool and is unique.

        LOL



        I have, and it leads me to believe that there may be a problem with a number of items, but that no one has conclusively shown which is the source. The fact that BMW changed the bearings leads me to conclude that they are either the problem, or they thought they could mitigate the actual problem by changing the bearings. Could be a number of things. As I've said before, I don't see anything wrong with overengineering a car; especially an extreme-performance car like yours. I just don't see how we have established that this (oil system) is the source of the issue. If anything, I would lean toward the actual bearing tolerances.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        Yah - a ton of them actually. I bought a ~$2k, non-functional lip because I think it looks cool and is unique.
        I think you know there is a big difference between aesthetics and mechanical function.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        I have, and it leads me to believe that there may be a problem with a number of items, but that no one has conclusively shown which is the source. The fact that BMW changed the bearings leads me to conclude that they are either the problem, or they thought they could mitigate the actual problem by changing the bearings. Could be a number of things. As I've said before, I don't see anything wrong with overengineering a car; especially an extreme-performance car like yours. I just don't see how we have established that this (oil system) is the source of the issue. If anything, I would lean toward the actual bearing tolerances.
        Well you may need more conclusive proof I guess but seeing motors torn down myself in person as well as the opinions of various tuners has provided me more than enough. If you wish to pursue it further by all means but I have enough evidence to come to my own conclusion regarding the S65 oiling system. Also keep in mind BMW did not dry sump it like they did the S85, something else to look into.
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think you know there is a big difference between aesthetics and mechanical function.
        Yes and no. Some people buy the Amuse exhaust - that was like $15k list - insane....to me; worth it to others.

        Well you may need more conclusive proof I guess but seeing motors torn down myself in person as well as the opinions of various tuners has provided me more than enough. If you wish to pursue it further by all means but I have enough evidence to come to my own conclusion regarding the S65 oiling system. Also keep in mind BMW did not dry sump it like they did the S85, something else to look into.
        More power to you. Put it to you this way...if my motor ever does blow, I will probably put in a dry sump on the rebuild. Makes sense to me given the rest of the investment and the potential to help. But I would look closely at all of the tolerances in the motor and go after an inside source at BMW to see what they could tell me about improving on their design.

        But before that I would rather put the OEM, euro, dry sump system on my 308. The US comes wet sump and the 3L V8 does really need it if you plan to track the thing a lot. I'm going to track it, but I'll be off the gas in the turns, and try to keep the revs down. Just blast it on the straights. The M3 I drive at limit. If it blows, I will tear it down and share the results.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        Yes and no. Some people buy the Amuse exhaust - that was like $15k list - insane....to me; worth it to others.
        But the point is an exhaust isn't a preventative or safety measure for the S65. A dry sump's intended function is a bit different.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        But I would look closely at all of the tolerances in the motor and go after an inside source at BMW to see what they could tell me about improving on their design.
        If you have an inside source let me know. The bearings are just 1 part of a bigger picture.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        The M3 I drive at limit. If it blows, I will tear it down and share the results.
        Excellent.
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If you have an inside source let me know.
        Distant in-law. For emergency use only. : )
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        Distant in-law. For emergency use only. : )
        I'm with you. I've had 3 E9x M3's, no bearings problem. The M3 GT4 uses the exact same lubrication setup as our cars. If it was a weak point, wouldn't BMW address it in those racer cars? Because it would be really embarrassing if a race car with it's all race goodies threw a rod out of it's block.

        I don't deny that they were cars with said problems, which is very normal to find some bad examples in thousands. The first problem here is this issue became too big because some people gains benefits with feeding such stories to the community.

        My E90's had bent valve because the buyer did a money shift and over revved the engine nearly to 9500. Should i now make a thread and say our valve springs, timing chain or other relative parts are designed poorly? No, because i know what exactly happened and it had nothing to do with the engine itself. This bring the second issue in this bearing thing. Can the same said about the failed motors discussed here? Did we get full info on the blown motors? Do we know how often they would get an oil change? etc...

        But i know one thing. Most of the blown engines had SC, and there are a lot of shady things going on in the SC business. One guy blew his engine and blamed the bearing. But he didn't say that he had a meth-based tune and he was running on a empty meth tank. SMH


        Are you in Ferrarichat btw?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I'm with you. I've had 3 E9x M3's, no bearings problem.
        I had an E46 M3 with no bearing problems. Does that mean the E46 M3 S54 had no bearing problems?
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I'm with you. I've had 3 E9x M3's, no bearings problem. The M3 GT4 uses the exact same lubrication setup as our cars. If it was a weak point, wouldn't BMW address it in those racer cars? Because it would be really embarrassing if a race car with it's all race goodies threw a rod out of it's block.

        I don't deny that they were cars with said problems, which is very normal to find some bad examples in thousands. The first problem here is this issue became too big because some people gains benefits with feeding such stories to the community.

        My E90's had bent valve because the buyer did a money shift and over revved the engine nearly to 9500. Should i now make a thread and say our valve springs, timing chain or other relative parts are designed poorly? No, because i know what exactly happened and it had nothing to do with the engine itself. This bring the second issue in this bearing thing. Can the same said about the failed motors discussed here? Did we get full info on the blown motors? Do we know how often they would get an oil change? etc...

        But i know one thing. Most of the blown engines had SC, and there are a lot of shady things going on in the SC business. One guy blew his engine and blamed the bearing. But he didn't say that he had a meth-based tune and he was running on a empty meth tank. SMH


        Are you in Ferrarichat btw?
        People certainly need to be weary of everything they read on the internet. Taking any motives out of it for a sec; it is simply very difficult to draw scientific results without testing scientifically. The stock S65 sees massive variance in use across the normal range of drivers. Then throw in the variables of tuning, different hardware, superchargers, climate, etc. There is a lot going on.

        Yup - same name over there. Just haven't been posting much as car is at iND. Target delivery date is Thanksgiving : )
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        Just haven't been posting much as car is at iND. Target delivery date is Thanksgiving : )
        What are they doing?
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What are they doing?
        A lot of minor things; and the major things are:

        -fitting front euro valance; paint
        -fitting rear euro valance; paint
        -repaint engine cover/panel
        -inspect entire car for any areas of concern
        -clear bra lower rocker panels
        -clear bra any rub points
        -repaint front venting; front pop-up lights
        -new tire on spare...
        -bunch of other little stuff

        Nothing mechanical unless they find a problem; car is ready to rock. Just need to re-install AC and refurb or replace wiper motor. Only other issues other than cosmetic restoration/detailing.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
        A lot of minor things; and the major things are:

        -fitting front euro valance; paint
        -fitting rear euro valance; paint
        -repaint engine cover/panel
        -inspect entire car for any areas of concern
        -clear bra lower rocker panels
        -clear bra any rub points
        -repaint front venting; front pop-up lights
        -new tire on spare...
        -bunch of other little stuff

        Nothing mechanical unless they find a problem; car is ready to rock. Just need to re-install AC and refurb or replace wiper motor. Only other issues other than cosmetic restoration/detailing.
        Very cool, they do excellent work.
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Very cool, they do excellent work.
        Best paint and body work I have ever seen first hand. Very excited.