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    • ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results?

      There are going to be several built motor supercharged S65 V8 M3 V8 setups starting to roam the streets this year. ESS will have the VT2-725, Gintani will have their Stage III and Stage III+, and Active Autowerke will have their level 4. Each takes a different approach with ESS using the same Vortech V3Si blower their kits already employ, Gintani offering Vortech T-Trim, V3, and YSI options, and Active Autowerke employing a Rotrex C-38 but is able to accommodate other blowers as well.

      Here is the different between a VT3-725 and a VT2-625 supercharger setup, both on DCT M3's with meth in SAE correction:


      645 wheel for the built motor setup and 586 wheel for the stock internal setup. VT2-650 kits claim to be over 600 wheel on stock internals so one has to ask themselves if it is worth the cost to build a motor for only 50 wheel horsepower? $15,000+ on top of the supercharger kit for 50 wheel? Sure this power will likely be more reliable but one has to scratch their head at this price for performance ratio. It certainly makes sense to upgrade to a VT3 setup if one were to take the stock motor too far though.

      The Vortech blower used here is approaching its limit. For a built motor application, it would seem to be a bit undersized as 12 psi is not providing all that much versus the 7.5 psi of the stock internal kit partially due to the lower compression. To really see solid gains a bigger blower is necessary. Gintani has shown up to 16.5 psi with a Vortech YSI thus far and higher dyno results on the lower reading Dyno Dynamics dyno.

      Hopefully a comparison of the three major built motor setups will be able to be made soon.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 173 Comments
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes. You should probably do a search.



        Well now you do. BMW went cheap. A shame...

        No need to do a search, and yeah I guess they went cheap on the efficient S65 that is so highly praised by you.
      1. ultimateendz's Avatar
        ultimateendz -
        fyi... @Sticky ....i decided to go to the horses mouth on the AFR thing....those 13.xx afr are false....every shops car runs close to if not stoich
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        No need to do a search, and yeah I guess they went cheap on the efficient S65 that is so highly praised by you.
        The motor is an awesome motor that makes a ton of hp per liter and has won numerous awards. BMW felt they didn't have to dry sump it so costs won out. That doesn't change an 8400 rpm 4.0 liter V8 having amazing volumetric efficiency. If you can't separate these aspects and just want to use anything you can to talk down on it go ahead.

        Last I checked though the M3 is holding up better with 6XX boost then those 350/370Z motors you and your friend were talking about. And also, all it takes is a dry sump to make it bulletproof.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ultimateendz Click here to enlarge
        fyi... @Sticky ....i decided to go to the horses mouth on the AFR thing....those 13.xx afr are false....every shops car runs close to if not stoich
        Every shops car runs close to stoich? Who told you this?
      1. ultimateendz's Avatar
        ultimateendz -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Every shops car runs close to stoich? Who told you this?
        before i tell you please show me im wrong...been asking for this data for some time now.....
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The motor is an awesome motor that makes a ton of hp per liter and has won numerous awards. BMW felt they didn't have to dry sump it so costs won out. That doesn't change an 8400 rpm 4.0 liter V8 having amazing volumetric efficiency. If you can't separate these aspects and just want to use anything you can to talk down on it go ahead.

        Last I checked though the M3 is holding up better with 6XX boost then those 350/370Z motors you and your friend were talking about. And also, all it takes is a dry sump to make it bulletproof.

        Classic Sticky I expect nothing less from you.

        lol I know your assuming the dry sump will cure the oil starvation problem. I can tell from your previous post your looking for a answer to the problem and your not sure it will fix it.

        Ah numerous awards lol yippee hooray how many times are you going to beat that dead horse?

        I wasnt talking about S65 vs 350z/370z.

        But here we go again.

        350z's cant hold $#@! as stock block with boost this has been known for years .Now a build one your S65 cant even come close to the fastest built 3.5 DE

        3.7 VHR 500-550whp is as far as you want to push a stock block.One thing I can say in Nismo's defense at least he was out driving his TT 370z for a year and a half racing beating the crap out of it. What were you doing running your god dam mouth like you are now about what if's and maybe's.

        Built 370z's I am one of the very few in the country I have just begun to scratch the surface. I can show you a dyno of one that I doubt your car will come clost to.

        Now would you please address me Nismo 370z is done dead he doesnt even own a Z anymore . You keep trying to combine stuff that he said with me ,and everyone know's he said a lot of crazy things around here.

        Where two different people.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ultimateendz Click here to enlarge
        before i tell you please show me im wrong...been asking for this data for some time now.....
        Look I know what my car runs and many of the other sc'd cars as this is obviously a topic I follow and am interested in.

        I already said earlier I'm not going to go collect dynos and go through the whole forum for you. You have plenty of info already posted.

        So go ahead and share where you go your info.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        lol I know your assuming the dry sump will cure the oil starvation problem. I can tell from your previous post your looking for a answer to the problem and your not sure it will fix it.
        Tell me why a dry sump won't solve oil starvation issues?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        Ah numerous awards lol yippee hooray how many times are you going to beat that dead horse?
        It's a fact.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        I wasnt talking about S65 vs 350z/370z.
        Learned your lesson last time.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        Now would you please address me Nismo 370z is done dead he doesnt even own a Z anymore . You keep trying to combine stuff that he said with me ,and everyone know's he said a lot of crazy things around here.
        Ran his mouth about how strong the Z motor is, popped it shortly after. It is what it is.
      1. ultimateendz's Avatar
        ultimateendz -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Look I know what my car runs and many of the other sc'd cars as this is obviously a topic I follow and am interested in.

        I already said earlier I'm not going to go collect dynos and go through the whole forum for you. You have plenty of info already posted.

        So go ahead and share where you go your info.
        i will glady give you that information if you give me the data....give and take Click here to enlarge
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Tell me why a dry sump won't solve oil starvation issues?



        It's a fact.



        Learned your lesson last time.



        Ran his mouth about how strong the Z motor is, popped it shortly after. It is what it is.

        I dont care if it will solve it or not are you sure it will the dry sump ?

        Yeah it's a fact about the S65 everyone knows this and your point brining it up again is ?

        Please tell me what lesson I learned you mean Nismo370 again thats not me.

        I will tell you this much post your number bring your car and your mouth over to the east coast, and run me and the rest of the list of cars that will be waiting for you in Mexico.

        Spring 2013 come to the east coast it will be worth the trip for you.

        I could care less about arguing 370z stock block TT vs SC S65 stock block.You have a build motor and so do I with 6800 miles on mine.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ultimateendz Click here to enlarge
        i will glady give you that information if you give me the data....give and take Click here to enlarge
        You can't make that comment and be like I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Look, I know my air/fuel and these motors pretty well. So it would be great to see who told you guys that are blown are running stoichiometric a/f...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        I dont care if it will solve it or not are you sure it will the dry sump ?

        Yeah it's a fact about the S65 everyone knows this and your point brining it up again is ?

        Please tell me what lesson I learned you mean Nismo370 again thats not me.

        I will tell you this much post your number bring your car and your mouth over to the east coast, and run me and the rest of the list of cars that will be waiting for you in Mexico.

        Spring 2013 come to the east coast it will be worth the trip for you.

        I could care less about arguing 370z stock block TT vs SC S65 stock block.You have a build motor and so do I with 6800 miles on mine.
        Oh, so Nismo learned the Nissan motor wasn't quite how he portrayed it? Feels like you may have learned something at his expense too.

        No prob, we'll meet up and do runs. Sounds like fun and I'd be happy to.
      1. ultimateendz's Avatar
        ultimateendz -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You can't make that comment and be like I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Look, I know my air/fuel and these motors pretty well. So it would be great to see who told you guys that are blown are running stoichiometric a/f...

        yup...i can....and this is me doing it....no lies here either...i decided to ask some people last night....i was just curious and they told me the whole story....i just want to see what ive been looking for before we got into this part of the conversation is all....after that ill be happy to divulge that info for you...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ultimateendz Click here to enlarge
        yup...i can....and this is me doing it....no lies here either...i decided to ask some people last night....i was just curious and they told me the whole story....i just want to see what ive been looking for before we got into this part of the conversation is all....after that ill be happy to divulge that info for you...
        LOL well ok, I mean it doesn't really matter to me. I have a pretty good idea on the various tuners for this platform and what some do and what some don't. Anyone who wants more on this topic can just read this forum.
      1. ultimateendz's Avatar
        ultimateendz -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        LOL well ok, I mean it doesn't really matter to me. I have a pretty good idea on the various tuners for this platform and what some do and what some don't. Anyone who wants more on this topic can just read this forum.
        ok then....ill keep my info to myself then....
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Oh, so Nismo learned the Nissan motor wasn't quite how he portrayed it? Feels like you may have learned something at his expense too.

        No prob, we'll meet up and do runs. Sounds like fun and I'd be happy to.

        I hurt mine before with the SC piston number two, I didn't get to learn the lesson he did.

        I did warn him however because he drove his car hard doing 13000 miles 160-170 pulls on a normal normal basis even when he wasnt racing. I knew it was just a matter of time before he blew up just plain common sense.

        Oh yeah I agree the runs will be fun.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        You probably considered buying the PROcede for your M3 Click here to enlarge IF it can be avoided, retuning the OEM DME is not only the best way to get consistent power, but it's also the safest.
        how is it the safest? a proper standalone totally controlling spark/air fuel/boost/timing would be much safer than hacking the dme up to see boost and such no?


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Both major plug ins have come to terms with the fact that a Flash​ is necessary for higher HP applications (FBO & Upgraded Turbos). Vishnu has their own flash that requires you send in the DME while Terry/BMS has made some COBB base maps to stack a JB4 on top of.
        are you saying a flash is needed for the N54? no it's not, at all... i have no idea where you're getting that from :/
        Terry's recent dyno post showing 550+ on RB's was just a jb4, no flash.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Building a high HP M car (any generation M3, M5, M6) is never an inexpensive build. Performance wise, you standard X-Pipe for the E9x starts around $1.7k. Then add in the rear section and you've spent around $4 on just an exhaust. At this point, you could've bought all the performance parts to make an FBO N54.
        which is RIDICULOUS, they're just charging more because they know the client base will go 'oh hurr durr this is obviously how much it's worth!/QUOTE]

        a/n (cat-back?) exhaust for 1.7k? you could get a custom made one for $500! a custom muffler tuned to your liking for a tad less. not even double the price if you want titanium...

        yeah, not only is that FBO n54 money, that's N54 FBO with top shelf parts ($1000 on a nice exhaust, $1000 downpipes, $1000 intercooler..) AND a good meth kit ($1000).. you could probably even jiggle the prices around to fit your tune in as well..


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Most of the kits start ~$8k, but naturally you need things that they don't come with -- An intercooled manifold, the heat exchanger, necessary plumbing & pumps & appropriate fuel injectors. This essentially forces you to buy the max power stock compression kit ($16k for all, give or take) and then add on the low compression build cost (another $15k). Depending on who does it, you get new pistons, rods, sleeved block, an upgraded fuel system & a bigger blower. To go from low 500 WHP to mid/upper 600 WHP is a healthy jump & I think once low-compression builds become a little more "mainstream", the price will drop down & be a more common upgrade.
        yeah that's... that's just wow, i don't know any other car besides exotics (ferrari/lambo) that you need to spend so much cash for so little (relatively) gain...so now we're looking at $35k odd for mid-upper 600whp... jesus, you could BUY and build any number of other albeit older) cars to 600whp for less money :|... for that money i'd want well over 700whp thanks...
        .
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        nvm
        graph says pump + meth

        how do you guys know if the blower is maxed without knowing the pulley sizes?
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        VE of the S65.
        i'm pretty sure the only rating that determines the 'maximum output' of the blower is its rotational speed. i'm pretty sure you can only get that with the size of the supercharger pulley, crank pulley, and engine rpm.

        i suppose you could know its max if there were compressor maps for the supercharger, but....
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        i'm pretty sure the only rating that determines the 'maximum output' of the blower is its rotational speed.
        Yes but different motors will produce different boost making different heat and working the blower differently, etc.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        i suppose you could know its max if there were compressor maps for the supercharger, but...
        Which there are but also read this: http://www.germanboost.com/showthrea...-Blower-Sizing
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        are you saying a flash is needed for the N54? no it's not, at all... i have no idea where you're getting that from :/
        Terry's recent dyno post showing 550+ on RB's was just a jb4, no flash.

        If you're referencing this dyno with the JB4 + RBs (http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...B-Dyno-Testing), it says right in the mod list BMS Flash

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        which is RIDICULOUS, they're just charging more because they know the client base will go 'oh hurr durr this is obviously how much it's worth!

        a/n (cat-back?) exhaust for 1.7k? you could get a custom made one for $500! a custom muffler tuned to your liking for a tad less. not even double the price if you want titanium...
        I'm strictly talking about products from mainstream vendors (Eisenmann, Akrapovic, RPi, Gintani, Challenge, SuperSprint, Fabspeed, Mastermind, etc etc etc), not custom muffler shop jobs.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        yeah that's... that's just wow, i don't know any other car besides exotics (ferrari/lambo) that you need to spend so much cash for so little (relatively) gain...so now we're looking at $35k odd for mid-upper 600whp... jesus, you could BUY and build any number of other albeit older) cars to 600whp for less money :|... for that money i'd want well over 700whp thanks...
        .
        I mean, it's all relative. You want max power out of the S65, you're spending ~$30k for the low compression engine in a $70k car that'll give you between 600 WHP-700 WHP depending on the blower. But think of it this way:

        • You buy an E9x M3 & spend another $35k in mods (Low compression engine, upgraded brakes & suspension). This will give you a top notch performing M3 that you can take on the track & enjoy.
        • With this setup, you're currently faster than a Lamborghini Gallardo ($250k+ brand new) & have gained ~200% gain in WHP (once again, depending on the blower).
        • To get a comparable build & gains (200% over stock) on a Gallardo, you're looking at the UR TT Upgrade. Stock WHP will put you around 410, so a 200% gain takes you over 800 WHP. That's a Stage 2 Underground Racing TT kit for ~$70k (without additional suspension, brake upgrades).


        There are HUNDREDS of other cars that you could pick that you can make more powerful for less $$, look domestics or JDM imports (ex: look at the CTS-V build that @ultimateendz is doing). BUT if you want German refinement & a high HP setup, you gotta pay to play -- Regardless whether it's an Audi, BMW, Merc or Porsche, it's going to cost you a pretty penny to mod it to that level.