• ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results?

      There are going to be several built motor supercharged S65 V8 M3 V8 setups starting to roam the streets this year. ESS will have the VT2-725, Gintani will have their Stage III and Stage III+, and Active Autowerke will have their level 4. Each takes a different approach with ESS using the same Vortech V3Si blower their kits already employ, Gintani offering Vortech T-Trim, V3, and YSI options, and Active Autowerke employing a Rotrex C-38 but is able to accommodate other blowers as well.

      Here is the different between a VT3-725 and a VT2-625 supercharger setup, both on DCT M3's with meth in SAE correction:


      645 wheel for the built motor setup and 586 wheel for the stock internal setup. VT2-650 kits claim to be over 600 wheel on stock internals so one has to ask themselves if it is worth the cost to build a motor for only 50 wheel horsepower? $15,000+ on top of the supercharger kit for 50 wheel? Sure this power will likely be more reliable but one has to scratch their head at this price for performance ratio. It certainly makes sense to upgrade to a VT3 setup if one were to take the stock motor too far though.

      The Vortech blower used here is approaching its limit. For a built motor application, it would seem to be a bit undersized as 12 psi is not providing all that much versus the 7.5 psi of the stock internal kit partially due to the lower compression. To really see solid gains a bigger blower is necessary. Gintani has shown up to 16.5 psi with a Vortech YSI thus far and higher dyno results on the lower reading Dyno Dynamics dyno.

      Hopefully a comparison of the three major built motor setups will be able to be made soon.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 173 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        Am i the only onethat thinks this motor should be able to make ... Well

        going by the 3.0 L n54 with a 7000rpm limit... And the s65 at 4.0L with 8250rpm...

        that's 17% more rpm, say 650whp from an s65 built should be a walk in the park when an unopened n54 with bigger turbos smashes past 550whp

        don't get me wrong, i'd prefer an m3 in so many ways and the s65 is BRILLIANT..

        but for not just the performance now... But how much better it's getting, the n54 powered cars can be much faster (POTENTIALLY)
        It's a sad result, I don't disagree. It is what it is with that compression and that compressor.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        but for not just the performance now... But how much better it's getting, the n54 powered cars can be much faster (POTENTIALLY)
        It helps that the N54 came turbo'd from the get go, so adding bigger turbos, supporting power mods & a solid aftermarket tune is a lot simpler. The S65 came N/A from Munich & because the aftermarket crowd craved power, we started slapping superchargers on them. Because the DME wasn't designed to work with a blower, it's going to take significantly more R&D (and time) to get down a solid setup that's not going to implode the engine.

        The E46 M3 was on sale from 2001-2006 (officially), the HPF Turbo kits didn't really go for sale to the public until the car was no longer being built ('06-'07). An important thing to remember is that HPF is not strictly using the OEM DME, but instead adding AEM system to safely manage everything. Because the S65 & E9x M3s have become so popular & the majors have reached the max power on stock compression, low-compression builds are becoming more popular. Gintani + ESS have been doing them for a little while, AA is getting into the mix, so now we're just waiting on VF, but it'll be a matter of time until people crack the DME & can manipulate it to safely maximize the performance on a supercharged, low-compression (2 major changes that aren't OEM) S65.

        What really matters the most to me is reliability. I've heard that the ESS fuel system is less than "bullet-proof" on the VT3, so I'd really like to hear from @tightie about his Gintani Stage 3 + how that's working out. I'd sacrifice 25 WHP any day for a car that spends more time on the road then it does in a shop.
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Fuel isn't the problem.

        I'm going to have to go dry sump.

        Does th3 M3 even have the room for a dry sump? I would think the cost to do a custom dry sump system would be at least $5000.That's really over kill for a street car the main benefit for the system is to eliminate the possibility of oil starvation on like a road course.

        I would look into adding a bigger oil pan or spacer and do more frequent oil changes that's just me though.

        I didn't know the S65 had oil starvation issues
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        Does th3 M3 even have the room for a dry sump? I would think the cost to do a custom dry sump system would be at least $5000.That's really over kill for a street car the main benefit for the system is to eliminate the possibility of oil starvation on like a road course.
        I would look into adding a bigger oil pan or spacer and do more frequent oil changes that's just me though.
        I didn't know the S65 had oil starvation issues
        There are dry sump kits available, like this one: http://motorsport24.de/motorsport-te...Kit::1541.html

        Big $$$ of course and I don't see a necessity for this unless you're racing the car.
      1. TRAPPER's Avatar
        TRAPPER -
        We are saying "underwhelming" because of cost right? Well then, isn't this data just exploiting the fact the supercharger kits for E9X M3 are overpriced to begin with? The price for admission of an IC kit STARTS at around $11K! If the big $$ for the vendors are in built motors (obviously demand is there) then maybe more results like this will stabilize price of kits. Even an intercooled kit at $11K is tough to swallow, let alone another $15K for built engine. $26K + cost of M3 puts me at six figures. My opinion is costs are out of wack, but car is relatively new to mods so I hope $ settle down, then I'm in.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        At this price tag for SC kit + built engine, I'd have a hard time defending such a setup vs simply buying a GT-R, slap $5k in mods on it and eat the M3 for breakfast, especially on a road course.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        It helps that the N54 came turbo'd from the get go, so adding bigger turbos, supporting power mods & a solid aftermarket tune is a lot simpler. The S65 came N/A from Munich & because the aftermarket crowd craved power, we started slapping superchargers on them. Because the DME wasn't designed to work with a blower, it's going to take significantly more R&D (and time) to get down a solid setup that's not going to implode the engine.

        The E46 M3 was on sale from 2001-2006 (officially), the HPF Turbo kits didn't really go for sale to the public until the car was no longer being built ('06-'07). An important thing to remember is that HPF is not strictly using the OEM DME, but instead adding AEM system to safely manage everything. Because the S65 & E9x M3s have become so popular & the majors have reached the max power on stock compression, low-compression builds are becoming more popular. Gintani + ESS have been doing them for a little while, AA is getting into the mix, so now we're just waiting on VF, but it'll be a matter of time until people crack the DME & can manipulate it to safely maximize the performance on a supercharged, low-compression (2 major changes that aren't OEM) S65.

        What really matters the most to me is reliability. I've heard that the ESS fuel system is less than "bullet-proof" on the VT3, so I'd really like to hear from @tightie about his Gintani Stage 3 + how that's working out. I'd sacrifice 25 WHP any day for a car that spends more time on the road then it does in a shop.
        i get that the tuning is the biggest hurdle - but why not learn from the e36 and e46, that trying to get the stock dme to properly handle boost or more complex mods is a lot more effort than other safer and cheaper options? I'm sure when you fully get into it, you could almost do whatever you want.. But that's just one companies research and stunts the aftermarket - just get it over with a wire up a plug and play half standalone half piggy..?

        even the n54 either runs of a piggy (for people that want decent power), or an in development supplementary standalone! And that's an ecu that is all ready to be tuned and sees boost and stuff!

        a low comp build for $15k is an increuble over-price though, even $250/piston and $250 a rod (which is pretty reasonable).. $labour to strip, machine work/reco $... $labour to put it bak together.... And i'm still not justifying $15k... Or even $10k almost!

        i wonder how much they would have charged for a turbo setup?.. Considering the e46 m3 hpf kits reach $50k or so in the upper echelons... Eurgh..

        but if it's already $10k for a *basic* blower kit as above (i actually have no idea how much these kits cost sorry if i'm way off).. $15k to build the engine... Then add in exhaust and header price.. Whatever other supporting mods you'd need ($1k meth injection, or does that come in the price of the kits?)
        i'm not seeing much change off $30k..

        spend more noe to spend less later is my exact plan though.. Yet i'll still not even come close to $30k with FAR more work to do..
      1. Zenn0ne's Avatar
        Zenn0ne -
        650whp doesn't seem bad at all for 11.5 -12 psi , I mean he can turn up the boost fairly easy no ?
        What other company out there has their built setups out and running ?

        Sidenote: I heard this tightie fella went through 3 blown motors with Gintani Click here to enlarge

        also these M3's utilize their power fairly well I would think 700whp is these cars would haul Ass ...
      1. fastgti69's Avatar
        fastgti69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zenn0ne Click here to enlarge
        650whp doesn't seem bad at all for 11.5 -12 psi , I mean he can turn up the boost fairly easy no ?
        What other company out there has their built setups out and running ?

        Sidenote: I heard this tightie fella went through 3 blown motors with Gintani Click here to enlarge

        also these M3's utilize their power fairly well I would think 700whp is these cars would haul Ass ...
        My buddie I've known since middle school. Only blown motor he's had was with the Gpower kit. Only had slipping belt issues with the Gintani kit. Very strong car.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        i get that the tuning is the biggest hurdle - but why not learn from the e36 and e46, that trying to get the stock dme to properly handle boost or more complex mods is a lot more effort than other safer and cheaper options? I'm sure when you fully get into it, you could almost do whatever you want.. But that's just one companies research and stunts the aftermarket - just get it over with a wire up a plug and play half standalone half piggy..?
        You probably considered buying the PROcede for your M3 Click here to enlarge IF it can be avoided, retuning the OEM DME is not only the best way to get consistent power, but it's also the safest.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        even the n54 either runs of a piggy (for people that want decent power), or an in development supplementary standalone! And that's an ecu that is all ready to be tuned and sees boost and stuff!
        Both major plug ins have come to terms with the fact that a Flash is necessary for higher HP applications (FBO & Upgraded Turbos). Vishnu has their own flash that requires you send in the DME while Terry/BMS has made some COBB base maps to stack a JB4 on top of.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        a low comp build for $15k is an increuble over-price though, even $250/piston and $250 a rod (which is pretty reasonable).. $labour to strip, machine work/reco $... $labour to put it bak together.... And i'm still not justifying $15k... Or even $10k almost!

        i wonder how much they would have charged for a turbo setup?.. Considering the e46 m3 hpf kits reach $50k or so in the upper echelons... Eurgh..

        but if it's already $10k for a *basic* blower kit as above (i actually have no idea how much these kits cost sorry if i'm way off).. $15k to build the engine... Then add in exhaust and header price.. Whatever other supporting mods you'd need ($1k meth injection, or does that come in the price of the kits?)
        i'm not seeing much change off $30k..

        spend more noe to spend less later is my exact plan though.. Yet i'll still not even come close to $30k with FAR more work to do..
        Building a high HP M car (any generation M3, M5, M6) is never an inexpensive build. Performance wise, you standard X-Pipe for the E9x starts around $1.7k. Then add in the rear section and you've spent around $4 on just an exhaust. At this point, you could've bought all the performance parts to make an FBO N54.

        Most of the kits start ~$8k, but naturally you need things that they don't come with -- An intercooled manifold, the heat exchanger, necessary plumbing & pumps & appropriate fuel injectors. This essentially forces you to buy the max power stock compression kit ($16k for all, give or take) and then add on the low compression build cost (another $15k). Depending on who does it, you get new pistons, rods, sleeved block, an upgraded fuel system & a bigger blower. To go from low 500 WHP to mid/upper 600 WHP is a healthy jump & I think once low-compression builds become a little more "mainstream", the price will drop down & be a more common upgrade.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zenn0ne Click here to enlarge
        650whp doesn't seem bad at all for 11.5 -12 psi , I mean he can turn up the boost fairly easy no ?
        What other company out there has their built setups out and running ?

        Sidenote: I heard this tightie fella went through 3 blown motors with Gintani Click here to enlarge
        I know about his G-Power woes (long ass time ago) & both parties reserved that amicably (IIRC) -- They covered some of his repairs & he just swapped kits. He's been running the Gintani Stage 3 at 12.5 psi. Unfortunately Gintani also has a black cloud over it's head b/c they were the 1st company to really start making superchargers for the S65, (and like any new project) things went wrong, engines broke and they learned from it. So the ESS fanboys love claiming that the Gintani tunes are ticking timb bombs.

        Which is why I was hoping he could comment on how his Gintani kit has actually been working out for.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        From what I gather over on the other boards they don't want to exceed the Dct's limits with any more power. Discuss
      1. folgrz's Avatar
        folgrz -
        If I recall he is on the stock transmission still
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by folgrz Click here to enlarge
        If I recall he is on the stock transmission still
        He is, they couldn't reprogram the DCT sensors to accept the thicker SSP Clutch Plates
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zenn0ne Click here to enlarge
        650whp doesn't seem bad at all for 11.5 -12 psi , I mean he can turn up the boost fairly easy no ?
        What other company out there has their built setups out and running ?
        No, he can't turn the boost up fairly easy.

        Sidenote: I heard this tightie fella went through 3 blown motors with Gintani Click here to enlarge'
        You heard incorrectly but when you track this car on a roadcourse with a blower... you might want to address the oil system. That has nothing do with Gintani, ESS, or anyone else. Companies sell dry sump kits for a reason.

        also these M3's utilize their power fairly well I would think 700whp is these cars would haul Ass ...
        700 whp in what car doesn't haul ass?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        He is, they couldn't reprogram the DCT sensors to accept the thicker SSP Clutch Plates
        Karma.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        From what I gather over on the other boards they don't want to exceed the Dct's limits with any more power. Discuss
        Pussies.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TRAPPER Click here to enlarge
        We are saying "underwhelming" because of cost right?
        Nope, not just because of that.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Building a high HP M car (any generation M3, M5, M6) is never an inexpensive build. Performance wise, you standard X-Pipe for the E9x starts around $1.7k. Then add in the rear section and you've spent around $4 on just an exhaust. At this point, you could've bought all the performance parts to make an FBO N54.
        You have to know where to spend the money, I had a full exhaust for less than half of you wrote. Point made though modifying this platform is not for people on a budget.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Big $$$ of course and I don't see a necessity for this unless you're racing the car.
        On the roadcourse it's simply necessary. I want it for peace of mind, the stock oiling system just has simply proven to have issues. I'm worried about it...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        Does th3 M3 even have the room for a dry sump?
        Yes. You should probably do a search.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        I didn't know the S65 had oil starvation issues
        Well now you do. BMW went cheap. A shame...