• ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results?

      There are going to be several built motor supercharged S65 V8 M3 V8 setups starting to roam the streets this year. ESS will have the VT2-725, Gintani will have their Stage III and Stage III+, and Active Autowerke will have their level 4. Each takes a different approach with ESS using the same Vortech V3Si blower their kits already employ, Gintani offering Vortech T-Trim, V3, and YSI options, and Active Autowerke employing a Rotrex C-38 but is able to accommodate other blowers as well.

      Here is the different between a VT3-725 and a VT2-625 supercharger setup, both on DCT M3's with meth in SAE correction:


      645 wheel for the built motor setup and 586 wheel for the stock internal setup. VT2-650 kits claim to be over 600 wheel on stock internals so one has to ask themselves if it is worth the cost to build a motor for only 50 wheel horsepower? $15,000+ on top of the supercharger kit for 50 wheel? Sure this power will likely be more reliable but one has to scratch their head at this price for performance ratio. It certainly makes sense to upgrade to a VT3 setup if one were to take the stock motor too far though.

      The Vortech blower used here is approaching its limit. For a built motor application, it would seem to be a bit undersized as 12 psi is not providing all that much versus the 7.5 psi of the stock internal kit partially due to the lower compression. To really see solid gains a bigger blower is necessary. Gintani has shown up to 16.5 psi with a Vortech YSI thus far and higher dyno results on the lower reading Dyno Dynamics dyno.

      Hopefully a comparison of the three major built motor setups will be able to be made soon.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 173 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
        Uh no I did not mention money at all... And Flywheel HP means what to me?
        Flip M3 said he expected more for the cost of a built motor and you said you expected more from a built motor as well. I agreed, how is a built motor not costing more?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
        And Flywheel HP means what to me?
        That's Shoot 8F, you probably need to learn more about Dyno Dynamics.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Not built that wellClick here to enlarge
        It does have some issues but the pistons, rods, and crank are quality pieces.
      1. Blaizon's Avatar
        Blaizon -
        What's the compression of the built motor car? If it's lowered, they will need to boost it even more...but should be able to relatively safe as long as the tune is good. The numbers look good to me on the 725 car if you consider what static cr the motor was built at. I'm assuming 10:2???

        Lastly, I think it was a bad move on staying with an S trim for the built car. I would've wanted a JT at a minimum if it could fit.
      1. Sledgehammer's Avatar
        Sledgehammer -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Flip M3 said he expected more for the cost of a built motor and you said you expected more from a built motor as well. I agreed, how is a built motor not costing more?


        That's Shoot 8F, you probably need to learn more about Dyno Dynamics.
        Like I said when did I mention cost? Stay on topic Mitt!

        Your assumption is that somehow I'm not familiar? You amaze me with that skill...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
        Your assumption is that somehow I'm not familiar? You amaze me with that skill...
        If you were familiar then you wouldn't have made the comment you did. Go ahead, fill us all in on what that means.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
        Like I said when did I mention cost? Stay on topic Mitt!
        A built motor doesn't cost anything? You expect more from a built motor, right? That is the topic pay attention.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
        What's the compression of the built motor car? If it's lowered, they will need to boost it even more...but should be able to relatively safe as long as the tune is good. The numbers look good to me on the 725 car if you consider what static cr the motor was built at. I'm assuming 10:2???

        Lastly, I think it was a bad move on staying with an S trim for the built car. I would've wanted a JT at a minimum if it could fit.
        It's definitely lowered just not sure to what.

        Hoping I didn't go too low on my compression.
      1. Sledgehammer's Avatar
        Sledgehammer -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If you were familiar then you wouldn't have made the comment you did. Go ahead, fill us all in on what that means.





        A built motor doesn't cost anything? You expect more from a built motor, right? That is the topic pay attention.
        My point is and continues to be that I would expect more power from a FI V8 motor no matter what it was... I never addressed the price of the built motor, I addressed the lackluster power result itself. As for the price itself, no its not cheap and yes for the money the buyer got screwed.

        Regarding the other dyno posted... You got all the answers as always so again I say you amaze me with that skill of yours.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It does have some issues but the pistons, rods, and crank are quality pieces.
        Proof tuning alone will not ruin the engine? I still believe oil starvation is the number one cause of a blown s65.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Proof tuning alone will not ruin the engine? I still believe oil starvation is the number one cause of a blown s65.
        I agree with you on the oil starvation, which is what I'm primarily worried about. You guys got any way to address it?

        Tuning alone can ruin it, but the S65 can take a beating.
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's definitely lowered just not sure to what.

        Hoping I didn't go too low on my compression.
        Hope you didnt go to low with a centrifugal blower the car would be a slug out down low. I hope you didnt go lower than 9:5:1.

        I would have put a bigger blower on the car for sure than stick with the SI. YSI and let the car rip a T Trim is only a slight upgrade from the SI only flow 50CFM's more.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        Hope you didnt go to low with a centrifugal blower the car would be a slug out down low.
        It's going to be a slug no matter what. It was a slug down low with the stock compression.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        I hope you didnt go lower than 9:5:1.
        I didn't.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        I would have put a bigger blower on the car for sure than stick with the SI. YSI and let the car rip a T Trim is only a slight upgrade from the SI only flow 50CFM's more.
        Ya but you can overspin the T-trim impeller more. The YSI is definitely a good start I'd go even bigger if I could. I want a Procharger F1-X but we'll figure that out later.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I agree with you on the oil starvation, which is what I'm primarily worried about. You guys got any way to address it?

        Tuning alone can ruin it, but the S65 can take a beating.
        No, we do not have a 100% way to prevent it but a shorter oil change interval along with sending your oil out for analysis might be a good thing to do.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        No 100% way to prevent it but changing your oil in shorter intervals and sending your oil out for analysis might be a good thing to do.
        Why is there no 100% way to prevent it? What about upgraded fuel pumps or dry sump?

        Why is the oil starvation an issue?
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's going to be a slug no matter what. It was a slug down low with the stock compression.
        But you said in another thread that M3s in stock form are faster from down low than a 335, and a 335 is not a slug in any form really...and here it's a slug?
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        An oil change at 5k should be fine.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
        But you said in another thread that M3s in stock form are faster from down low than a 335, and a 335 is not a slug in any form really...and here it's a slug?
        I think you misunderstand, throttle response down low in stock form is better.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
        An oil change at 5k should be fine.
        So more frequent oil change prevents oil starvation?
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        So more frequent oil change prevents oil starvation?
        Maybe if it gets too worn out and watery it cavitates the pump and can't do its job protecting the bearings on the crank? I would always change it at 5k. $#@! 7500 or more.

        Well any kind of throttle response from down low is gonna be a slug in any car...you just aren't moving enough air to really get the motor up and going.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        ^ Empty post.
      1. Mr.Squeeze's Avatar
        Mr.Squeeze -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's going to be a slug no matter what. It was a slug down low with the stock compression.



        I didn't.



        Ya but you can overspin the T-trim impeller more. The YSI is definitely a good start I'd go even bigger if I could. I want a Procharger F1-X but we'll figure that out later.


        It will get worse and be more of a slug the lower you go wiht compression. Also you can over sping the SI and well people over spin Vortech blower all them time. For a built motor the YSI has to be used if it was my M it's a V8 for gods sake.