• Controversy: Is the SLS AMG faster than the 458 Italia stock for stock?

      A debate has been raging on the BenzBoost forums and we decided it was finally time to put together information on these two cars to help sort out the video below. There are three races and the SLS gets the jump in the first two. In the first race the SLS is lined up ahead and gets on the gas first pulling. In the second video a mix-up in the honks has the SLS jump again leading the 458 to have to run it down which it can not. The third race is the cleanest with the SLS still pulling away and rather quickly.


      Now, this has led to people from each side yelling and screaming at each other. Here is what we know, the SLS dyno's more on a dynojet stock. There are variables involved of course but based on the graphs we have thus far the 458 baselines around 450 wheel and the SLS around 488 wheel. Advantage, SLS.

      458:

      SLS:


      So power favors the SLS but what about the weight? Well, Road and Track weighed the 458 Italia at 3490 pounds. The SLS AMG comes in at 3795 pounds. 300 pounds in favor of the 458 Italia although this is mitigated more from a roll than from a stop.

      This may help explain why the 458 Italia gets a better elapsed time in the 1/4 mile versus the SLS stock for stock. It's rear engine launch is also a large factor helping it get off the line better. Going back to Road and Track, the numbers are 11.0@128.5 versus 11.6@124.3 for the Italia and SLS respectively. 0-120 numbers favor the Italia by 1.2 second stock for stock, not a small difference.

      Shift speed has been stated to favor the 458 with the SLS at 100ms to its 40ms. This disparity seems too large for the same technology from the same supplier, Getrag. As a matter of fact, they are basically the same unit. So is there really that large of a disparity here? We don't think so.

      So how do you explain the outcome of the video? The only explanation is that the SLS is not stock. Logically, this is the only conclusion one can reach to explain how the SLS leaves the 458 the way it does. The weight is not as large of a factor once the cars are moving but even so we should see the 458 slowly pull not the SLS jumping out and destroying the 458. A stock SLS simply is not capable of it based on the data presented here. The stock claims are likely misleading and for SLS owners to boast. This is why we prefer track numbers for support but even without them a video can still be broken down. If we are incorrect, someone do this same race with two stock cars and prove us wrong. One thing is certain, both are fast cars and examples of some of the best vehicles available today.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: SLS AMG vs Ferrari 458 started by Jacob502 View original post
      Comments 192 Comments
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        You said your in Abu-Dhabi. You also mentioned you have a 458. Do you have it with you in Abu-Dhabi?
        I was in Abu-Dhabi but not right now.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        I'm not a liar, but you are an idiot.

        The image you showed us above is taken from your "setting" icon, which shows the rep that you have given and not recieved. That shows you giving me a negative rep on 11:18AM today 5-24-2012.
        For the last time, I cannot possibly rep you. I have less than 100 Rep points and less than 100 Posts. Can someone help me here and explain to this moron about the repping system.

        LOL - why do you think you have such low rep ?? Perhaps because everything you post is garbage and biased towards AMG ?? Hey, I like AMGs too, but I'm not stupid enough to think an SLS is going to "kill" a 458 LOL. The numbers posted above don't lie. But something tells me that you have not been 100% truthful in your OP saying the SLS is not tuned. And you conveniently ignored commenting on the videos with the Jag. The only comment was from your brother saying that GTboard videos sometimes lie about the mods on the cars running yet he had no proof whatsoever that this was the case in the Jag videos.

        So lets just break it down here:

        1. You guys say the SLS will "kill" the 458 because the SLS has more torque LOL

        2. Many others here have give very sound technical specs on why the 458 is faster than the SLS, both on paper and as well there have been multiple videos posted showing a 458 being faster than the SLS.

        3. You have shown a video of a "stock" SLS pulling away from a 458 and claim the SLS is "stock".

        Clearly someone is lying here. And based on you and your brothers continuous biased posts as well as all the other information posted here showing how the 458 is faster than the SLS, I think I know who is full of $#@! and anyone else reading this thread knows, too.
      1. Jacob502's Avatar
        Jacob502 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        LOL - why do you think you have such low rep ?? Perhaps because everything you post is garbage and biased towards AMG ?? Hey, I like AMGs too, but I'm not stupid enough to think an SLS is going to "kill" a 458 LOL. The numbers posted above don't lie. But something tells me that you have not been 100% truthful in your OP saying the SLS is not tuned. And you conveniently ignored commenting on the videos with the Jag. The only comment was from your brother saying that GTboard videos sometimes lie about the mods on the cars running yet he had no proof whatsoever that this was the case in the Jag videos.

        So lets just break it down here:

        1. You guys say the SLS will "kill" the 458 because the SLS has more torque LOL

        2. Many others here have give very sound technical specs on why the 458 is faster than the SLS, both on paper and as well there have been multiple videos posted showing a 458 being faster than the SLS.

        3. You have shown a video of a "stock" SLS pulling away from a 458 and claim the SLS is "stock".

        Clearly someone is lying here. And based on you and your brothers continuous biased posts as well as all the other information posted here showing how the 458 is faster than the SLS, I think I know who is full of $#@! and anyone else reading this thread knows, too.
        Dude. You are a pathetic troll. arguing with you is like watching flies f*uck.

        when you own an exotic car like the SLS or the 458 and actually go out and test it, maybe I will take you a little more seriously.

        have fun trolling

        I actually have a good rep count. 47 posts against 35rep points. wheras you have 1369 post agianst 289 rep points. I guess you post all the garbage in this forum.
      1. Jacob502's Avatar
        Jacob502 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I was in Abu-Dhabi but not right now.

        when you are in Abu-Dhabi with your 458. I will be more than happy to set you up in a race against a stock SLS. lets see how you keep upClick here to enlarge
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        Dude. You are a pathetic troll. arguing with you is like watching flies f*uck.

        when you own an exotic car like the SLS or the 458 and actually go out and test it, maybe I will take you a little more seriously.

        have fun trolling

        I actually have a good rep count. 47 posts against 35rep points. wheras you have 1369 post agianst 289 rep points. I guess you post all the garbage in this forum.
        See, this is your problem - I just gave you all the facts and your only response is to call me troll. Instead of focusing on the FACTS and trying to rebut the arguments made against you here, you resort to name calling like a spoiled little kid. LOL. And as in typical spoiled little kid fashion you say I need to "own" one of these cars to be taken seriously. I've driven both the SLS and the 458, on the street and on the race track. And I can tell you with 100% certainty that a stock SLS is not beating the 458 no matter what bull$#@! video you post. The numbers do not lie - but you certainly do.
        Take care and enjoy your "supercar" LOL
      1. Jacob502's Avatar
        Jacob502 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        See, this is your problem - I just gave you all the facts and your only response is to call me troll. Instead of focusing on the FACTS and trying to rebut the arguments made against you here, you resort to name calling like a spoiled little kid. LOL. And as in typical spoiled little kid fashion you say I need to "own" one of these cars to be taken seriously. I've driven both the SLS and the 458, on the street and on the race track. And I can tell you with 100% certainty that a stock SLS is not beating the 458 no matter what bull$#@! video you post. The numbers do not lie - but you certainly do.
        Take care and enjoy your "supercar" LOL
        looool. what a child. Do you actually belive the BS you post?

        BTW and FYI. all the numbers and facts that you claimn to have given compares a 458 and SLS from a standpoint launch, which I have clearly indicated and clarified that the 458 has the advantage.
      1. SLS AMG's Avatar
        SLS AMG -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        looool. what a child. Do you actually belive the BS you post?

        BTW and FYI. all the numbers and facts that you claimn to have given compares a 458 and SLS from a standpoint launch, which I have clearly indicated and clarified that the 458 has the advantage.
        Bro don't continue in this thread anyone longer we can't convince people who haven't driven these cars and tested them and take MotorTrend, car & driver, and TopGear as their basis.

        Now come on a stock Z06 Corvette making 12.0s on a 1/4 mile according to Motortrend Click here to enlarge

        YEAH I'll BELEIVE THAT Click here to enlarge
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        I'm not a liar, but you are an idiot.

        The image you showed us above is taken from your "setting" icon, which shows the rep that you have given and not recieved. That shows you giving me a negative rep on 11:18AM today 5-24-2012.
        For the last time, I cannot possibly rep you. I have less than 100 Rep points and less than 100 Posts. Can someone help me here and explain to this moron about the repping system.
        I apologize... I really do - you are right. I could have sworn this morning you neg-repped me, but looks like I was wrong.

        Attachment 17526

        I do think you really need to look at the specifications and relax though. Click here to enlarge
      1. Jacob502's Avatar
        Jacob502 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        I apologize... I really do - you are right. I could have sworn this morning you neg-repped me, but looks like I was wrong.


        I do think you really need to look at the specifications and relax though. Click here to enlarge
        No harm done. It takes a big man to admit he was wrong and apologise. I forgive you!

        Hey I am relaxed brother. I know what Im talking about. I aprreciate fixtures and results, but in reality I've seen something else.

        I know what I am talking about.

        Lets see if Sorena can meet up for a race and hopefully we will post a video for you all!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        I'm not a liar, but you are an idiot.

        The image you showed us above is taken from your "setting" icon, which shows the rep that you have given and not recieved. That shows you giving me a negative rep on 11:18AM today 5-24-2012.
        For the last time, I cannot possibly rep you. I have less than 100 Rep points and less than 100 Posts. Can someone help me here and explain to this moron about the repping system.
        It is only set to show who you gave it to not who you received it from. Enough discussion on rep, further posts will be deleted and rep adjusted accordingly.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
        Bro don't continue in this thread anyone longer we can't convince people who haven't driven these cars and tested them and take MotorTrend, car & driver, and TopGear as their basis.

        Now come on a stock Z06 Corvette making 12.0s on a 1/4 mile according to Motortrend Click here to enlarge

        YEAH I'll BELEIVE THAT Click here to enlarge
        Just do a video of a stock SLS versus a stock 458.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jacob502 Click here to enlarge
        looool. what a child. Do you actually belive the BS you post?

        BTW and FYI. all the numbers and facts that you claimn to have given compares a 458 and SLS from a standpoint launch, which I have clearly indicated and clarified that the 458 has the advantage.
        I do believe what I post because it is based on numbers, facts, theories and real world experience - not dreamland where you and your brother obviously live.
        As for your theory about torque winning [roll on] races - you clearly missed this post which was one of the best ones in this thread:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Torque does not win races. Just because carroll shelby (bless him) said this does not make this true. Total horsepower under the HP or torque curve divided by weight wins races.

        Torque is a force - and has no relationship to time or work. A 200lb man can stand on a 100 foot pole attached to a bolt and create 20,000 lb-ft of torque - that doesn't mean anything, because we are missing a component (how fast can he turn it?)... This is where horsepower comes in. Horsepower is derived from torque; torque without any speed means nothing.


        Think of a diesel car - like the 335d with tons of torque. It's not faster than a 335i simply because it has 125 more lb-ft of torque, right? No, it has less area underneath the power curve - and with similar weight, will lose in a race given enough distance.

        Here is a good article to read if you are interested: http://www.largiader.com/articles/torque.html

        Cheers.
        The torque advantage goes to the SLS but not by much and from the above we can conclude that torque really doesn't matter during a roll on race and peak HP (where the 458 has the advantage as well as weight) plays a much larger role when running through the gears. I'm not sure why you can't understand this especially when just about everyone else posting here has said the same thing despite the video you posted AND the other Jag videos posted that you continue to ignore commenting on each time I bring them up. So clearly the SLS in your video was modified yet you claim it wasn't. So, once again, someone here is being untruthful. Either way I don't give a $#@! - there's no point in arguing with someone who isn't equipped to do so and ignores basic facts of physics. You should take your brothers advice and quit while you're ahead.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
        Bro don't continue in this thread anyone longer we can't convince people who haven't driven these cars and tested them and take MotorTrend, car & driver, and TopGear as their basis.
        I guess you missed my previous post where I stated that I HAVE driven both the SLS and 458 on the street and on a race track. Have you driven a 458 ?
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
        Bro don't continue in this thread anyone longer we can't convince people who haven't driven these cars and tested them and take MotorTrend, car & driver, and TopGear as their basis.

        Now come on a stock Z06 Corvette making 12.0s on a 1/4 mile according to Motortrend Click here to enlarge

        YEAH I'll BELEIVE THAT Click here to enlarge
        Not that this matters, but the Z06 also ran a 12.0 1/4 mile when Popular Mechanics tested it.


        Insideline ran it at 11.7s (stock w/o traction control and 11.9 w/ traction control on)


        The car is 3200 lbs and has 505 horsepower - with a fat power curve. It's a fast car dude. People aren't paying these people off to pump the numbers - the car is not something I would personally buy - but it's a fast car - no doubt about it.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        And here is an "average" from many tests... High 11's http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...06z06perf.html
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
        the dry weight is actually 3100 LBS (1390Kg) as advertised by Ferrari. Their curb weight is 3300 LBS (1495Kg), which does not comply with the Curb Weight of European Union (EU). Non-EU curb weight is the car's full wight with fluids and fuel. EU Curb Weight includes a 75Kg driver.

        So if we add 75Kg to the Ferrari's Non EU Curb Weight it becomes 1570Kg which is 50Kg away from the SLS. The 458 has 110Nm of torques less than the less. That 50Kg less weight will not help it at a street race from roll on.

        here is some explanation about curb weight and UK and US curb weight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight

        amazingly Ferrari just advertise dry weight. So you will have to figure out the curb weight in US standard or EU standard
        Very good info in this post.... and much appreciated Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Mo, i'm not aware of such package. What you are describing is Scuderia, but it will hit the market next year. Click here to enlarge
        I will try to find out exactly what it's called, but it may have been a bunch of small options: racing seats, forged wheels, CF panels, etc... He bought it used with 820 miles on it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
        Bro don't continue in this thread anyone longer we can't convince people who haven't driven these cars and tested them and take MotorTrend, car & driver, and TopGear as their basis.
        Not sure if this was directed at me, but I don't take magazine stuff blindly.... I actually have a whole thread on mbworld why I don't trust magazine performance tests. However, in this case, I literally organized the track event where the 458 Italia and SLS (and bunch of other cars ran). By the way, Drew (DLSJ5), pencilgeek, and Warren (hotrod182) from this forum and from m3 post forum attended one of those rentals and saw one of the 458 Italia's run (11.1 @ 126 mph), which is very close to the magazine's 11.0 to 11.2 range.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SLS AMG Click here to enlarge
        Now come on a stock Z06 Corvette making 12.0s on a 1/4 mile according to Motortrend Click here to enlargeYEAH I'll BELEIVE THAT Click here to enlarge
        What I've learned from sharing the track with so many Z06's is that their 1/4 mile numbers tend to depend very heavily on driver skill and weather conditions. In California, most of the stock Z06's I've seen at track events have been running between 11.7 to 12.2. In the east coast, with very cold and dense air (negative DA), along with a great driver, Z06's have hit 10s. Yes, 1 second is a very big gap between the numbers and it bothered me for a while too, but given that the Z06 has manual transmission and some drivers out there shift at 400 ms while others can probably shift as fast as 150 ms, then you add up almost one full second difference in just 3 shifts (1/4 mile run).
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        So we still don't have a clear answer on why the SLS is much stronger in roll on races than the 458 Italia? Leaving all the side-arguments alone for a second, can we at least try to have a non-negative discussion about this? So far, we know that:

        1) The 458 Italia is about 110 lbs lighter than the SLS (50 Kg according to SLS AMG).
        2) The 458 Italia has a lower coefficient of drag than the SLS (per LZH).
        3) The 458 Italia's transmission is supposedly faster than the SLS's DCT.
        4) The 458 Italia revvs much higher which should help it stay in it's power zone a bit longer when doing roll-on races.
        5) The 458 Italia is more aerodynamic than the SLS.
        6) The 458 Italia can reach higher top speeds than the SLS so it should at least win at those very high speeds.

        So am I missing something here? Click here to enlarge On paper, the 458 Italia should win, but from the videos shown here (from real-life racing) it does not. There's got to be a good reason for this.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        I don't know what we are basing the 458 having a faster trans on though with them both being dual clutches.

        Lower cd and better aero are somewhat redundant.

        Terminal velocity is not indicative of acceleration from a roll.

        We need to see more races but the SLS does put down more power to the wheels which is the most important factor in a roll on.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I don't know what we are basing the 458 having a faster trans on though with them both being dual clutches.

        Lower cd and better aero are somewhat redundant.

        Terminal velocity is not indicative of acceleration from a roll.

        We need to see more races but the SLS does put down more power to the wheels which is the most important factor in a roll on.
        What do you mean by that ?

        SLS 563 hp @ 6,800 rpm; 479 ft lb of torque @ 4,750 rpm

        458 562 HP, 398 lb-ft of torque at 6,000 RPM with 80% torque coming in at 3,250 RPM

        458 Italia has one less HP yet it's torque comes in at a lower RPM than the SLS.


      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        So we still don't have a clear answer on why the SLS is much stronger in roll on races than the 458 Italia? Leaving all the side-arguments alone for a second, can we at least try to have a non-negative discussion about this? So far, we know that:

        1) The 458 Italia is about 110 lbs lighter than the SLS (50 Kg according to SLS AMG).
        2) The 458 Italia has a lower coefficient of drag than the SLS (per LZH).
        3) The 458 Italia's transmission is supposedly faster than the SLS's DCT.
        4) The 458 Italia revvs much higher which should help it stay in it's power zone a bit longer when doing roll-on races.
        5) The 458 Italia is more aerodynamic than the SLS.
        6) The 458 Italia can reach higher top speeds than the SLS so it should at least win at those very high speeds.

        So am I missing something here? Click here to enlarge On paper, the 458 Italia should win, but from the videos shown here (from real-life racing) it does not.


        There's got to be a good reason for this.
        Yeah, someone is lying about that SLS in the OP about it being stock. Not sure why this is hard for anyone to understand when we have so much data on both cars. It's not like the SLS is right there with the 458 in the quarter mile; it's almost a full second slower. And the argument about the SLS having more torque from a roll is baseless as we have seen so that argument is also worthless. So what are we left with ? Oh I know....someone is full of $#@! and this is the internet - BIG SURPRISE.