• Gintani discusses S65 V8 (E9X M3) engine issues, weaknesses, and defects - Will BMW do a recall?

      There have been a surprising number of S65 V8 failures. Some of these have been with supercharged motors and often times fanboys and tuners alike would engage in a mud slinging campaign pointing to a competing tuner as the reason for the failure. The fact of the matter is, the S65 V8 seems to have an inherent weakness. It's wet sump oiling system does not seem to evenly lubricate the bearings which eventually leads to a failure.

      This issue is not just seen on supercharged cars but stock cars as well. We have been speaking about Sal@evolve and here is what he had to say:

      Sal believes there is a defect that affects cylinder 5. Gintani in the video mentions an issue with the rods of the back cylinders. Sal believes it is an issue in the head. It may be a combination of these factors but it is worth exploring.

      What we do know is stock cars have failed. We do know the oil system does not seem to be up to par especially for motors driven hard. We know bearings are wearing unevenly. We know BMW did change part numbers on some of the bearings. We know BMW is replacing failed motors that have not violated their warranty with no questions asked. This is all strong evidence of a design defect.

      Since there does seem to be a problem, will BMW do a recall? The answer is likely not. It is cheaper for BMW to replace the failed motors and simply wait this issue out until all warranties have expired. Redesigning the oil system is not something the BMW M of today will do. With the S54, the bearing defect in the motor was fixed with a recall due to pressure from the internet and the issue being made widely known.

      We have evidence in the past that BMW is not perfect and makes mistakes. BMW is interested in profit above all else, that much is certainly clear. The only way for any of the issues with the S65 V8 to be corrected is for the community to pull together and begin documenting these failures. However, most tuners seem to be interested in taking advantage of any motor that fails which happens to be running a competing tune or kit and leveraging this against them instead of getting to the root of the issue.

      Gintani has their own solution that we will not delve into further but it will be applied to the BimmerBoost.com M3. The reality of the situation though is to properly address a weak point in the oiling system it should be made a dry sump oil system. Not a cheap solution, but the proper one. Check out the Gintani video below.



      This article was originally published in forum thread: Gintani exposes BMW S65 Motor Bearings/Blown Motor (Video Inside) started by Raz@Gintani View original post
      Comments 85 Comments
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
        bring the redline down lol oh the S65 and all its glorious blown motors in the true sense of the wordN54 ftmfw Click here to enlarge
        +1 Click here to enlarge

        Glad I didn't get an M3. Although it's nice that a dry sump option exists for that engine. Sadly, at $7k it's not really an option... unless you plan to go all in, at which point there may be better sports cars to start off with.

        Anyway, I hope BMW steps up and copes with these issues! Breaking stuff with an N54 isn't cheap, but a blown S65 is no joke... Didn't someone mention $25k in the other s/c failure thread?? Click here to enlarge
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        I have seen nothing proving the failure was the design of the bearings, nothing proving the failure was oil pressure, and nothing proving it was the properties of the oil. The only thing I have seen was a whole lot of guessing.

        Correct me if I'm wrong, the point of a dry sump lubrication system is for packaging reasons and for lubrication under sustained cornering forces. I read nothing about the failures happening while driven on the track .... Dry sump isn't going to change your oil pressure. Dry sump isn't going to alter the flow of oil through your oil galleys.

        So please sticky, tell me how a dry sump system helps when you are doing "normal" driving in your M3?
        +1
        I haven't seen a root cause for the failure either and gintani even posted on another forum that it seems to come down to luck.
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        There are SO many things that need to be looked at and IMO this video shows nothing more than the rod bearings overheating and letting go.

        +1
      1. BigM62's Avatar
        BigM62 -
        What a cluster fuc this has turned out to be. I have nothing constructive to add, only that I wish all S65 owners the very best.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        Very polite response with excellent sentence structure, mr. Sticky. Of course, such courtesy should be expected by such a prominent poster as yourself.

        All I saw were bearings that were failing and notes on the 5th cylinder failures were more prevalent. It was an interesting video and I liked how the speaker even showed that detonation was probably not the cause. I have seen nothing proving the failure was the design of the bearings, nothing proving the failure was oil pressure, and nothing proving it was the properties of the oil. The only thing I have seen was a whole lot of guessing.

        Correct me if I'm wrong, the point of a dry sump lubrication system is for packaging reasons and for lubrication under sustained cornering forces. I read nothing about the failures happening while driven on the track and to quote [email]Sal@evolve , "Most cars were stock and blew at medium load around mid rpm's under normal driving." Dry sump isn't going to change your oil pressure. Dry sump isn't going to alter the flow of oil through your oil galleys.

        So please sticky, tell me how a dry sump system helps when you are doing "normal" driving in your M3?
        Did you miss the rod bearings ?? How do you think they get so beat up and dislodged ?? It's an oiling/heat issue. They are overheating...like I said a while back, more oil is not the answer, COOLER oil is. A dry sump will provide both and it can't hurt. But it would seem that there have been other failures that are the same which would mean there might be a design flaw.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        If there is no oiling issue then Gintani needs to apologize some owners. It would be NOT FUNNY at all if this claim for them was just a guess.

        I think is the oiling is decent IMO.
        Did you even watch the video?

        You are basing the oiling system being decent on what?

        They need to apologize for showing worn and loose bearings? What would cause that? An oil system that is NOT decent.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        +1
        I haven't seen a root cause for the failure either and gintani even posted on another forum that it seems to come down to luck.
        If you stick with the stock setup you are rolling the dice.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I would assume the stock pan, yes.

        I'm getting concerned about this issue now.
        ^^word...
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Question - and please excuse if I missed this if answered... How many stock S65s are known to have blown? I am sure this number is a hard one to obtain accurately - just curious what the chances of my engine going pop are.
      1. BrenM3's Avatar
        BrenM3 -
        Omg mass hysteria!!! We've all known about these motors for years now.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        I haven't... I mean, in all seriousness - I always try to research a car before purchasing, and try to look at engine failures (forums, whatever)... There are a few videos on youtube (recent - within the past year or so) and a few posts (same timeframe)... I really wish I would have known this was an issue prior to buying. I guess I missed something...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
        Omg mass hysteria!!! We've all known about these motors for years now.
        I never really knew the oil system was a major issue.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Question - and please excuse if I missed this if answered... How many stock S65s are known to have blown? I am sure this number is a hard one to obtain accurately - just curious what the chances of my engine going pop are.
        There seems to be a good amount all around the world.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        man this inherent flaw in the motor really sucks especially given it seems its there in stock form...feel bad for s65 owners that have invested quite a bit into that platform unless bmw steps up and recalls it
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
        man this inherent flaw in the motor really sucks especially given it seems its there in stock form...feel bad for s65 owners that have invested quite a bit into that platform unless bmw steps up and recalls it
        It can be fixed. We do not even know the full extent of this yes as everyone has been blaming superchargers instead of the root of the problem.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        why the heck is the dry sump system so damn expensive for the S65? someone needs to make another solution and clean up, f* the constant bmw tax everywhere, especially on the m3s
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Did you even watch the video?

        You are basing the oiling system being decent on what?

        They need to apologize for showing worn and loose bearings? What would cause that? An oil system that is NOT decent.

        Yes i watched it. Did you? was there any signs of oiling problems? It's all just guests. NOTHING on that video shows there is problems with oiling. No one ever mentioned it before whereas there is quite a few people pointing to #5 cylinder rod bearings.

        if you ask me to believe S65 has oiling issue because Alex thinks this way, well i don't. First Gintani said it was the meth system that gave up and Drew's engine blew because of that. Then it was the problem with 08 models rod bearings, and now is oiling issue. This shows they are not perfectly sure about the cause and maybe in future they will change their mind and point to another cause.

        And yes, oil system is decent. Can you prove it's not?

        Two oil pumps are installed in the S65 engine; the oil return pump, which is driven via a gearwheel by a crankshaft, and the volume flow-controlled main oil pump, driven via chain drive by the oil return pump.


        In the S85, the VANOS high pressure pump is installed instead of the S65 oil return pump, and the S85 oil return pump is contained in a housing together with the main oil pump (tandem pump).


        Since there is no space to install a tandem pump in the S65, the oil return pump has been moved from the main oil pump housing and installed instead of the VANOS high-pressure pump. This allows the pump drive principle (crankshaft => gearwheel => pump => chain => pump) to be maintained. As in the S85, the volume flow-controlled main oil pump is a hinged-valve oil pump with a feed capacity adjusted to suit the VANOS low-pressure system.


        The duocentric design of the oil return pump ensures that oil is always available at the inlet pipe of the main oil pump in the rear area of the oil pan, i.e. even when braking sharply from high speeds.


        The electrical oil return pumps installed in the S85 for scavenging the cylinder heads are no longer required, which results in a further weight saving. This is made possible by the lower number of cylinders, modification of the oil return routes, and the large capacity of the oil pan.


        The oil pan has a capacity of 8.3 litres (S85 9.3 litres). The oil supply is also guaranteed at extreme longitudinal and lateral accelerations of up to 1.4 times the normal gravitational acceleration.

        On paper, it's a decent setup. a Dry sump would be even better, but it's good to be honest.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Yes i watched it. Did you? was there any signs of oiling problems? It's all just guests. NOTHING on that video shows there is problems with oiling. No one ever mentioned it before whereas there is quite a few people pointing to #5 cylinder rod bearings.

        if you ask me to believe S65 has oiling issue because Alex thinks this way, well i don't. First Gintani said it was the meth system that gave up and Drew's engine blew because of that. Then it was the problem with 08 models rod bearings, and now is oiling issue. This shows they are not perfectly sure about the cause and maybe in future they will change their mind and point to another cause.

        And yes, oil system is decent. Can you prove it's not?




        On paper, it's a decent setup. a Dry sump would be even better, but it's good to be honest.
        The scoring on the rod bearings HAS to be some sort of oiling problem. That doesn't just magically happen to so many cars. And I said it earlier - it's heat related. Clearly the stock setup is inadequate to deal with the heat these motors are generating in the rotating assembly - boosted and stock it would seem. The fact that there hasn't been a dry sumped failure says alot. Dry sumping will deliver more cooler oil faster and more efficiently. If it's an inherent design flaw with the bearing, or bearing material, well, that could also be the case...

        And 7k for a dry sump kit that guys are running in professional racing REALLY isn't that much...guys spend more than that on wheels and tires and carbon fiber cosmetic crap.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Yes i watched it. Did you? was there any signs of oiling problems?
        Seriously? Did not see the bearings?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        if you ask me to believe S65 has oiling issue because Alex thinks this way, well i don't.
        It has nothing to do with Alex and everything to do with multiple tuners mentioning this issue. I have been speaking to Sal from @evolve as well and he knows of several stock motors letting go.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        First Gintani said it was the meth system that gave up and Drew's engine blew because of that. Then it was the problem with 08 models rod bearings, and now is oiling issue.
        Umm, no, Ricky's car had meth run out on it. Drew had clogged nozzles. These are factors but until the engine was taken apart you did not definitively what happened. They took the motor apart and laid it out right there. You are better at diagnosing engine issues over the internet than they are in person? Do you own a shop and build S65 motors or tune supercharger kits?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        And yes, oil system is decent. Can you prove it's not?
        Uh, ya, considering we are saying premature wear on bearings from multiple motors I think that is more than enough proof.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        On paper, it's a decent setup. a Dry sump would be even better, but it's good to be honest.
        You are not qualified to make this statement and BMW switched from a dry sump to cut costs and make packaging easier. The S85 doesn't have these issues, wonder why?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        guys spend more than that on wheels
        True, I spent more on wheels/tires.