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    • Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990

      We thought this eventually might come but not so soon. Weistec has decided to sell a naturally aspirated tune for the M156 V8 which offers gains of 47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, impressive. In addition to the horsepower gain torque is upped by 32 wheel, the speed limiter is removed, and the throttle response is optimized. The price is a very reasonable $990 which also is credited toward a supercharger purchase should one decide they want more power.




      Key Features:

      • +47 Wheel Horsepower
      • +32 Wheel Torque
      • Eliminate Top Speed Limiter
      • Increased Throttle Response
      • Optimized Fuel and Spark
      • Credit towards Stage 1/1+ Supercharger Systems


      To order: http://weistec.com/m156nas1.html

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 400 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        You seem to be drunk off this company. You are quite the cheerleader for them, no question.
        What is there to cheerlead? They essentially have fixed other tuners problems, done the impossible in getting CARB certification, and were the first to supercharge this motor. Do I really even need to say anything? Do you have any idea in how high of esteem you should hold those achievements? If you know as much as you think you do about tuning these German luxury platforms you should know that is as elite as it gets. Yes, I'm blown away and have been from the beginning when I took the time to go down in person and see for myself. I wish you would take the time to do the same so you might have some experience of your own.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        The peak numbers don't indicate anything different that other tuners have done. Calling them will do nothing. Its just like dyno numbers and the SC numbers. I dont care about numbers. I care about real world results. Always have, always will.
        I can't force you to call or do any research I suppose. Just a suggestion that might help you. I don't want to spoil your own version of things or anything.

        That is fine if you don't care about dyno numbers but I certainly do as do others. There are many factors and you can't exactly see an HP and torque curve on a slip. I like real world numbers as well which is likely why I launched my car at the strip as much as I did but I certainly don't dismiss one factor in favor of another as that is ignorant.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Ahh Joe, always looking for some Drama. "More flip flopping" you mean when I told you exactly how I felt about you? LOL. The peak numbers are not out of line as stated above. Try not to let your emotions get the best of you.
        What I mean is your tendency to shift positions frequently, nothing more. Earlier you said you saw nothing out of line. Now you seem to have some kind of issue. I don't know, it's hard to keep up with whatever stance you happen to be taking depending on my response to you.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What is there to cheerlead? They essentially have fixed other tuners problems, done the impossible in getting CARB certification, and were the first to supercharge this motor. Do I really even need to say anything? Do you have any idea in how high of esteem you should hold those achievements? If you know as much as you think you do about tuning these German luxury platforms you should know that is as elite as it gets. Yes, I'm blown away and have been from the beginning when I took the time to go down in person and see for myself. I wish you would take the time to do the same so you might have some experience of your own.

        Good for them. Bring it to the track. They need more track time and results. Numbers mean nothing without results. What have we seen from them? Jim's car? Anyone else?
        I mean on the track.

        I can't force you to call or do any research I suppose. Just a suggestion that might help you. I don't want to spoil your own version of things or anything.

        Just want to see track results. RENNtech gets it. Tune/Dyno/Results. That equals sales to me.

        That is fine if you don't care about dyno numbers but I certainly do as do others. There are many factors and you can't exactly see an HP and torque curve on a slip. I like real world numbers as well which is likely why I launched my car at the strip as much as I did but I certainly don't dismiss one factor in favor of another as that is ignorant.

        I care about them as a baseline. They really aren't needed though. You see a lot of MHP guys comparing Dyno charts? Nope... They are putting down the numbers where they count. On the track. Track results sell tunes.

        What I mean is your tendency to shift positions frequently, nothing more. Earlier you said you saw nothing out of line. Now you seem to have some kind of issue. I don't know, it's hard to keep up with whatever stance you happen to be taking depending on my response to you.

        I respond how I am being addressed. The more I disagree with you the more heated you get. I don't shift positions. My position is clear. Dyno results are good enough for some. Real world results are needed for me.
        ...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Without wasting my time searching through my dyno sheets ill tell you how. I gained about 50 whp on my 66. When I ran her down the track my suspension couldnt handle the increased power and the car actually did worse than when it had less power. I later dialed in the suspension and was able to see the fruits of my labor, but not that day.

        Just one simple example how the dyno numbers mean crap if your car is not dialed in for them. Real world adds real problems.
        Hold on, you are blaming the suspension here? Well that is why the HP didn't show, a mitigating factor you just stated. If your suspension worked properly it would work just as you stated. I mean come on, you know we are talking about the horsepower assuming a correctly mechanically functioning car.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Good for them. Bring it to the track. They need more track time and results. Numbers mean nothing without results. What have we seen from them? Jim's car? Anyone else? I mean on the track.
        Bud, the tune WAS JUST RELEASED. What are they supposed to do? Release the tune on the track to satisfy you? This same nonsense happened when they released the SC and then @ecampbell and @JRCART went and made a bunch of passes showing it was the real deal. I'm sure we will get drag strip results in addition as we did previously. Let's be reasonable.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Just want to see track results. RENNtech gets it. Tune/Dyno/Results. That equals sales to me.
        Renntech posts graphs as well... usually it goes graph first, track results second considering you dyno tune and not strip tune.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        I care about them as a baseline. They really aren't needed though. You see a lot of MHP guys comparing Dyno charts? Nope... They are putting down the numbers where they count. On the track. Track results sell tunes.
        Comparing slips is competition among enthusiasts, understandable. There are many more variables than on the same dyno though. I agree real world is where you want to see results but that should not take away from this. You can't fault them for something that has not happened yet. That is not fair. I understand the instant gratification world we live in but until time machines are invented we need to wait.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        I respond how I am being addressed. The more I disagree with you the more heated you get. I don't shift positions. My position is clear. Dyno results are good enough for some. Real world results are needed for me.
        Who is getting heated or what are you assuming? I'm just talking to you. Yes, you shift positions and quite frequently may I add. Ok, you are stating your point is you prefer track results now. Right? Understood, I hope a customer goes and gets them. Until then, check out the OP and analyze it as that is what we have.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Hold on, you are blaming the suspension here? Well that is why the HP didn't show, a mitigating factor you just stated. If your suspension worked properly it would work just as you stated. I mean come on, you know we are talking about the horsepower assuming a correctly mechanically functioning car.
        I am talking about the difference between what is indicated on the dyno and some wet dream about what it will translate to the track and how it actually performed on the track. My point has always been there are real world factors that exist at the track that don't show on the dyno.

        In some cases however I did see gains in whp on the dyno and no gain on the track. Maybe due to a fluke dyno runs or maybe the conditions on the dyno were more favorable than they were on the track. In many cases my ET's would be worse due to the more power and more wheel spin but my traps would be higher as you stated. In most of those cases the suspension or tire configuration needed to be changed.

        Ive also seen power on the dyno and have never seen anything change at the track. Not big power as your stating but 10 whp has shown nothing on my slips at times.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Bud, the tune WAS JUST RELEASED. What are they supposed to do? Release the tune on the track to satisfy you? This same nonsense happened when they released the SC and then @ecampbell and @JRCART went and made a bunch of passes showing it was the real deal. I'm sure we will get drag strip results in addition as we did previously. Let's be reasonable.

        Not satisfy me only. Most people want real world results from this company. As you stated about the SC, how long did we have to wait? It seemed like forever. I wish I lived on the WC. I would be trying out this tune tomorrow just to get some results and stop this debate stuff. Maybe have a beer with ya too and put it all to rest! Click here to enlarge

        Renntech posts graphs as well... usually it goes graph first, track results second considering you dyno tune and not strip tune.

        I enjoyed the last release from them from the CLS63. Firs the track results. Then the dyno and tune for sale. I like this approach much better. I wish they all sold tunes like that, but at THIS price! LOL


        Comparing slips is competition among enthusiasts, understandable. There are many more variables than on the same dyno though. I agree real world is where you want to see results but that should not take away from this. You can't fault them for something that has not happened yet. That is not fair. I understand the instant gratification world we live in but until time machines are invented we need to wait.

        Not faulting. The baseline seemed low, but who really cares. Its the end result that matters to me the most. You are right about instant gratification though. Its the "I want it now" world we live in.

        Who is getting heated or what are you assuming? I'm just talking to you. Yes, you shift positions and quite frequently may I add. Ok, you are stating your point is you prefer track results now. Right? Understood, I hope a customer goes and gets them. Until then, check out the OP and analyze it as that is what we have.

        That's cool then. I just don't want to argue again.

        As far as looking at the OP, thats what I'm doing. Just picking apart the dyno and analyzing the results. That's all we can do.

        ..
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        I am talking about the difference between what is indicated on the dyno and some wet dream about what it will translate to the track and how it actually performed on the track. My point has always been there are real world factors that exist at the track that don't show on the dyno.

        In some cases however I did see gains in whp on the dyno and no gain on the track. Maybe due to a fluke dyno runs or maybe the conditions on the dyno were more favorable than they were on the track. In many cases my ET's would be worse due to the more power and more wheel spin but my traps would be higher as you stated. In most of those cases the suspension or tire configuration needed to be changed.

        Ive also seen power on the dyno and have never seen anything change at the track. Not big power as your stating but 10 whp has shown nothing on my slips at times.
        It isn't a wet dream to state additional horsepower will have an appreciable difference on the track. It is a very real correlation.

        Your example is a mechanical failure affecting performance of a car. Uh, ya, and a flat tire will change your results too.

        If you gain HP it will translate to the track. The track works much like a dyno does so having both numbers is of course preferable to see if they correlate.

        10 whp has shown nothing on your slips? Same conditions and same everything? Because 10 whp sure shows up on an E46 M3, 330i, E92 M3, and every car I have ever had. There is no such thing as limp horses, either they are there or they aren't. If you truly added them, they will show.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Not satisfy me only. Most people want real world results from this company. As you stated about the SC, how long did we have to wait? It seemed like forever. I wish I lived on the WC. I would be trying out this tune tomorrow just to get some results and stop this debate stuff. Maybe have a beer with ya too and put it all to rest!
        Forever? Those dudes were running in terrible DA in Vegas. I would have advised them not to and wait for favorable conditions but they did it anyway far sooner than I would have. This is your point, really? They ran in 5000+ DA to get results as fast as possible, LOL.

        There is no reason to not try this tune out. Go for it, who is stopping you?

        There is no problem with you on this side of the computer, I do not know why you assume otherwise.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        I enjoyed the last release from them from the CLS63. Firs the track results. Then the dyno and tune for sale. I like this approach much better. I wish they all sold tunes like that, but at THIS price! LOL
        I assure you the tune was developed with pulls and then was tested on the track. They finalized it and then released the graphs.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Not faulting. The baseline seemed low, but who really cares. Its the end result that matters to me the most. You are right about instant gratification though. Its the "I want it now" world we live in.
        I tried to explain not all cars are equal. Tuned cars will be closer to each other assuming same mods/fuel. A variance among motors is basic stuff, we all know it exists. There is going to be a spread. The main thing is the delta.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        As far as looking at the OP, thats what I'm doing. Just picking apart the dyno and analyzing the results. That's all we can do.
        Exactly, but we can also be patient, reasonable, and appreciate more offerings for the platform.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        This thread is hilarious

        FWIW, my experience with Weistec has been that they are VERY conservative when the quote me anything related to power gains. During my build with them throughout the various stages they had quoted me a "goal" hp figure and ALWAYS exceeded that goal figure. They are a different type of tuner and they don't over hype their product with a bunch of bull$#@! claims. I promise you if they are claiming this tune make 47 hp, its making all of 47 hp.

        Go back and search every post ever put made by Weistec, you will not find a singe chect pounding or bold claim in any of their posts. They are the most conservative and realist tuners I have ever worked with. They have never once "told me what I want to hear" just to get me to cut a check for a product. Their product speaks for itself and as soon as a few of these tunes hit the street and track you guys will see what they can do.

        As for the basline number of 394 it does look a little low but then again the dyno they use has always read a little low IMO. My BS baseline dynoed at 411 on a dynojet with the prefilters removed at a shop near my home in Chicago a week later my car was shipped to evosprt and run on their dynojet and it made either 417 or 419 (I can't remember exact its been a while). That being said a gain is a gain and even if this tune only makes 35 its the least expensive power that you're going to find, but if they are claiming 47 hp I would bet its making 47 hp.

        Put a call into Steve or Mike or one of the guys at Weistec and talk to them for 10 minutes and you will instantly realize their coonservative mindset. Keep in mind Weistec has tuned Earl and my car to over 660rwhp without breaking anything or blowing anything up. There are other tuners that have blown these thingss up while doing a simple intake and exhaust tune. They know what they're doing and they can back up their words.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The NA tune is child's play considering what has already been done.
        Exactly. So, with something as simple as tune-only... Weistec gets +47 rwhp of performance delta, where Brabus, Renntech, et al are typically achieving high 20s, low 30s at the wheels.

        It's very simple to verify this.
        Agreed. Sounds like we'll see some third-party results soon, too.

        You guys are missing that they are doing things differently from other tuners. Hold them to their own standard.
        I don't see any problem holding all tuners to the same standard, so as to not be "playing favorites" and remain as objective and unbiased as possible. Sounds like you disagree, which is fine.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        I'll be getting the tune and will post up dyno numbers.
        Cool; look forward to your results. I thought you were already tuned though?

        Could it be that Wesitec simply knows more and can tune better than anyone else ?
        Could be. Seems a little far-fetched, but certainly a possibility.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Also, there are E63's that have dyno'd less than this one so I do not know why we are saying they all do 410 when they all do not. Some vehicles will start lower than others but once tuned they usually get around the same place.
        As far as tunes go, nothing will ever be as consistent and repeatable as the stock tune. Manufacturers are held to very stringent standards, and spent millions in R&D and engineering to develop their software. Aftermarket tunes for "off-road use only" and their corresponding results/performance/reliability are much more varied.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Exactly. So, with something as simple as tune-only... Weistec gets +47 rwhp of performance delta, where Brabus, Renntech, et al are typically achieving high 20s, low 30s at the wheels.
        I don't know what Brabus is getting and I haven't studied the Renntech graphs but I believe these are the largest gains from a tune on 91 octane we have seen unless I am mistaken. So yes, that should put the quality of the tune in perspective and show how well they are getting to know this platform all around.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Agreed. Sounds like we'll see some third-party results soon, too.
        I certainly hope so.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        I don't see any problem holding all tuners to the same standard, so as to not be "playing favorites" and remain as objective and unbiased as possible. Sounds like you disagree, which is fine.
        Perhaps we should clarify what that standard is. When talking about these guys I hold the bar very high and consider their past work, as in, a high standard. It isn't that I disagree it is that I don't think it would be fair to ask Powerchip for example to do what Weistec has. I didn't want to name another tuner but wanted to put it in context.

        Regarding being objective, yes, that is a separate and definitely important issue. That is why open debate is preferred as whether one believes another has bias or not challenging those assumptions should lead to the truth.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Could be. Seems a little far-fetched, but certainly a possibility.
        But how can it be far fetched if they have done the hard stuff before the easy stuff? They have CARB certification and the fist supercharged M156. By default they would have to know a bit more since they have gotten further. Is not that not logical?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        As far as tunes go, nothing will ever be as consistent and repeatable as the stock tune. Manufacturers are held to very stringent standards, and spent millions in R&D and engineering to develop their software. Aftermarket tunes for "off-road use only" and their corresponding results/performance/reliability are much more varied.
        I disagree somewhat because the stock tune works on broader parameters. For example, you get a 100 octane tune and you use 93 octane you are going to have problems the ECU may not be able to compensate for. If you fill your tank with 87 even though it is designed for 91 minimum the motor will not grenade as it simply is not as aggressive. There are certain parameters when tuned that are pushed a bit further than the stock tune. I don't want to call the stock tune flabby exactly but perhaps you can see what I'm saying.

        There is no doubt the stock tune is a work of art as is the entire car. I'm not debating those engineers skill. But they have other parameters to worry about other than max performance. They have to take emissions, fuel efficiency, decibel value, etc., into account.

        Aftermarket tunes vary across the spectrum because of all the different approaches so naturally a single tune compared to multiple tunes will have a varied spectrum. You take a single aggressive, custom tune on a specific type of fuel vs. the stock tune and the custom dyno tune should be more consistent or else it isn't a good tune.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The motor is not overrated and there is no De facto drivetrain loss standard. Different dyno's will provide different wheel readings which shows the crank rating does not mean much as the loss is constant not changing from dyno to dyno. The % simply changes based on what dyno you are using. If you go dyno on a dyno dynamics or a Mustang and it reads lower than 17-19% are you going to go sue Mercedes? Really? The motor clearly makes 507 horsepower.
        Actually if the cars are identical, then the energy lost to the drivetrain components will always be identical because the cars would have the same parts, which means the same amount of energy would get lost to turning the same amount of parts a certain amount. Now having different dyno machines measuring them differently is different than saying the loss itself varies (BIG DIFFERENCE). Mustang dynos and Dyno dynamics are load-bearing dynos, so the operator is able to exert variable load on the car to affect the outcome. However, I'm talking about having two E63s on the same dyno.... if you see one dynoing at 380 whp and one at 419 whp, then clearly one car is NOT running healthy or you have a problem with your dyno. Both cars have identical hardware and should produce similar output. There is no way (or at least much less chance) that the 47 whp gain will show up on the healthy car, but it will show up (and even more) on the weak car.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The E55 fiasco was due to protecting the CL55, S55, and SL55. It clearly proves crank figures are meaningless when attempting to measure rear wheel power. The BMW 335 and 1M are heavily underrated. The losses do not suddenly evaporate. % loss can not be used as an argument here or as support due to dyno variance.
        Again, you seem to be quoting examples of the manufacturer underrating figures, but you were talking about overrating (claiming 507 hp and getting lets say only 400). That's a big difference and is not as easy for a manufacturer to pull off due to the many regulations and guidelines they have to abide by.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Again this is irrelevant. What % you expect to see as a drivetrain loss can not be guaranteed. A healthy running stock E63 should put down 410 whp in your opinion on dyno's you have seen. I could take an E63 to 5 different dyno's and get you 5 different numbers. I could run one in shootout mode on a dyno dynamics and get you something in the mid to low 300's. Did the losses suddenly go up? Of course not. Different dynojets will even read differently.
        Your analysis is invalid.... we are talking about a healthy running car versus a non-healthy running car NOT a car that is claimed to be unhealthy because of the dyno machine it is being dynoed on. Basically we would have both cars put on the same dyno and having one produce 380 whp and one produce 419 whp. Clearly, there would be something wrong with one of the vehicles.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, what I am saying is pay attention to the delta more than the peak numbers. You really expect every M156 to be identical in all conditions? It is an impossibility. You have paid enough attention to DA to know how this affects the motor. Will someone in Colorodo sue Mercedes because they don't have the 507 hp that was guaranteed at sea level?
        Not in all conditions bro.... we were talking about same conditions SAE corrected dynos. I've seen more than one E55 go on the same dyno with same conditions produce different results. Heck when I was at Evosport, I looked at over (at least) 32 different E55 dynos on their machine - most of which were run in very close conditions (they used to run the dyno only after 5).

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They are saying they gained 47 whp and proved they did with the graph. There may be a car that gets more, or gets less, but the point is the gain from baseline to peak. Look at the difference and curve more than just focusing on peak numbers and attempting to compare them to different cars. It isn't an exact science, there are variables.
        Agreed. That's what I was saying.... the tune may produce 20 whp on some cars and maybe 40 whp on other cars. And that's how it should be advertised. It is not realistic to say that since they gained 47 whp on a certain car that they somehow produced a miracle for the M156 and cracked the code like none else could.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Someone is not going to get this tune and only see 5 whp or something absurd but there is no way to guarantee everyone gets 47 whp but that is a REALISTIC expectation if the car has a similar baseline.
        Again that's exactly what I was saying.... the results will vary based on how healthy the car was running before the tune. If someone had a very healthy E63 producing 420 whp and got the tune and ended up with 443 whp, then the tune only gained 23 whp, which is less than half of what's being advertised here.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A car that baselines 419 whp won't just add 47 whp on top of that, it does not work like that. They will all get to a similar peak despite different baselines. If you dyno 419 what you can take away from this is you can definitely expect to be in the 440's. Same thing if you dyno 380 something.
        Not necessarily true, but very reasonable. You are assuming here that the only thing wrong with the unhealthy car is the ECU when in fact it coulde be a number of other things. However, I do agree that if someone has a healthy running stock E63 or CLS63 or CLK63 BS producing 419 whp, then a Weistec tune will likely produce 25 whp only. That figure makes the tune a lot more realistic and on-par with almost every single Mercedes aftermarket tuner out there.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'm not saying you are undermining what they did but you said it was improbable. My opinion is that it is extremely probable based on what they have already demonstrated.
        Many tuners have also demonstrated that they can gain a huge number of whp on a car that initially dynoed very low.... the hard part is producing such a huge gain on a car running healthy numbers. Now that would be very head turning incident in the tuning world.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes, the engines are all mechanically similar. But density altitude alone will affect output. Mechanical similarity does not mean output in different conditions will always be similar. Cars broken in harder for example tend to dyno more or cars with more miles on them than motors that are brand new.
        I never said the cars will produce the same output in different conditions? Click here to enlarge I'm talking about two cars under the same conditions: one not healthy and one running decent numbers. And are you insinuating that cars that were not broken in properly have a software problem that a tune would somehow fix? Those are usually hardware related...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You can't just add 47 to any baseline. I would love to see a naturally aspirated M156 tune only put down 467 whp but that is not a realistic expectation.
        I'm very glad you ended with this statement because if you re-read my first post to this thread, you will see that your statement above is exactly what I was trying to say.... the 47 whp gain can be expected only on certain cars. But on a healthy running M156 that happen to dyno in the 410 to 420 range, then 47 whp gain is NOT a very realistic expectation. Yes a tune may gain more on an un-healthy running car, but it will also gain less on a healthy running car. Some companies choose to advertise the minimum hp numbers the software will produce so that the customer does not get disappointed and could always re-produce the results. Other companies like to advertise the maximum number. It's only a matter of choice. It doesn't mean one company broke the barrier or anything.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        You would be surprised.
        +1000. There are plenty of E55s on the forums that have shown 550+ whp yet run only 11.30s or 11.40s at the track while some of the quickest/fastest E55s have shown just under 500 whp Click here to enlarge

        Sometimes the gains don't translate right away to the track. That's why it is important to pick a tuner that knows what they're doing.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Actually if the cars are identical, then the energy lost to the drivetrain components will always be identical because the cars would have the same parts, which means the same amount of energy would get lost to turning the same amount of parts a certain amount. Now having different dyno machines measuring them differently is different than saying the loss itself varies (BIG DIFFERENCE). Mustang dynos and Dyno dynamics are load-bearing dynos, so the operator is able to exert variable load on the car to affect the outcome. However, I'm talking about having two E63s on the same dyno.... if you see one dynoing at 380 whp and one at 419 whp, then clearly one car is NOT running healthy or you have a problem with your dyno. Both cars have identical hardware and should produce similar output. There is no way (or at least much less chance) that the 47 whp gain will show up on the healthy car, but it will show up (and even more) on the weak car.
        The % lost is a constant but the % taken isn't always from the same number as there will be a slight horsepower variance even among mechanically similar cars. Make sense?

        As I stated earlier, % loss "standards" come from dynojets usually. Different dynojets will read differently and there are different models of dynojets as well. Comparing on the exact same dyno makes more sense.

        Once again, you are just mentioning RWHP as an absolute and I'm asking you which correction standard was used for these 410+ runs. SAE? DIN? Uncorrected? etc.

        You are assuming something is wrong with a car that baselines 395. This assumption is based on nothing other than a standard you created in your head. There is no % loss that has to be matched to the wheels. Engine dyno's are used by the manufacturers anyway.

        Don't you think Weistec when tuning the ECU on this car would have seen whether it was healthy or not?

        Why have other E63's on dynojets dyno'd less?

        What is important is the change from the baseline to the tune.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Again, you seem to be quoting examples of the manufacturer underrating figures, but you were talking about overrating (claiming 507 hp and getting lets say only 400). That's a big difference and is not as easy for a manufacturer to pull off due to the many regulations and guidelines they have to abide by.
        No, you mentioned overrating not I. I'm not even sure why. You have no way of knowing how that dynojet reads vs. other dynojets or other dyno's. These numbers are not absolutes or written in stone. Pull that motor out of the car, put it on an engine dyno, and you will see Mercedes is not shortchanging you. Also, % loss can change depending on the tire pressure, wheel size, tire weight, final drive, transmission, and many other things.

        You simply are assuming the car was not healthy which is absolutely not fair especially when you continue to compare it against the highest figures and not even an average which would be much more accurate.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Your analysis is invalid.... we are talking about a healthy running car versus a non-healthy running car NOT a car that is claimed to be unhealthy because of the dyno machine it is being dynoed on. Basically we would have both cars put on the same dyno and having one produce 380 whp and one produce 419 whp. Clearly, there would be something wrong with one of the vehicles.
        Why would there be something wrong with one of the vehicles? What do you think the % spread of the vehicles would be? If all E63 M156's are within 5% of each other (who knows if that is the case) that would be incredible. 5% though would mean a variance of up to 20 whp which is not out of line and to be expected among motors at this HP level. Break in alone can change this as well as mileage. Ever hear of motors with more miles on them putting down more power than fresh/tight ones? This invalidates your analysis not mine as it shows how large of a variance there can be. A heatsoaked car will still have the same drivetrain loss but put down less power. Once again, another variable.

        You haven't even asked how many miles this car had, that would be one of my first questions.

        I find it odd you continue to assume this car was unhealthy based on an assumption you are passing off as a proven fact. You could also try asking Weistec or talking to the owner...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Not in all conditions bro.... we were talking about same conditions SAE corrected dynos. I've seen more than one E55 go on the same dyno with same conditions produce different results. Heck when I was at Evosport, I looked at over (at least) 32 different E55 dynos on their machine - most of which were run in very close conditions (they used to run the dyno only after 5).
        SAE is the same correction factor not the same weather conditions, elevation, fuel, tire pressure, cool down, fans, etc. If you saw an E55 go on the same dyno and produce different results that supports my point.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Agreed. That's what I was saying.... the tune may produce 20 whp on some cars and maybe 40 whp on other cars. And that's how it should be advertised. It is not realistic to say that since they gained 47 whp on a certain car that they somehow produced a miracle for the M156 and cracked the code like none else could.
        Why is it not realistic? You have no example of this tune not doing what was advertised. What we have so far is proof it produced 47 whp on a particular car with a baseline in the 390's. If another car goes in on the same dyno with the same baseline, similar results are to be expected. That is what they are advertising.

        It should be understood that you can't just add 47 whp to any and every M156. I mean come on Mo, I don't expect ricer math from you.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Again that's exactly what I was saying.... the results will vary based on how healthy the car was running before the tune. If someone had a very healthy E63 producing 420 whp and got the tune and ended up with 443 whp, then the tune only gained 23 whp, which is less than half of what's being advertised here.
        You continue to say health. I just refer to it as the baseline. There is no reason to imply something is wrong with a car that puts down 395 whp. There would be no reason to imply something is wrong with an E63 putting down 320 whp on a dyno dynamics in shootout mode. It is no wonder Autowave corrects their dyno 20% because guys keep thinking something is wrong with their car when they don't put up big numbers. Dyno numbers can not be treated like they are set in stone when comparing them to other dyno's.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Not necessarily true, but very reasonable. You are assuming here that the only thing wrong with the unhealthy car is the ECU when in fact it coulde be a number of other things. However, I do agree that if someone has a healthy running stock E63 or CLS63 or CLK63 BS producing 419 whp, then a Weistec tune will likely produce 25 whp only. That figure makes the tune a lot more realistic and on-par with almost every single Mercedes aftermarket tuner out there.
        The assumption is that you keep referring to the car as unhealthy. I think some high dyno results have skewed your view of the E63. I have seen dynojet numbers for the M3 vary from 330-360 whp, that is a 30 whp spread. I broke my car in hard and hit 349 whp. Just the nature of the internal combustion engine they are not 100% equal to each other.

        We would have to see what would happen with a car that baselines higher. Perhaps this dynojet reads lower than others. I do not think it is fair for you to negatively assume there is something wrong with this vehicle based on hand picked numbers by you.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Many tuners have also demonstrated that they can gain a huge number of whp on a car that initially dynoed very low.... the hard part is producing such a huge gain on a car running healthy numbers. Now that would be very head turning incident in the tuning world.
        If a car dyno's low it could be the way the factory tune adapted and how they broke it in. The tuner can take a look and see the air fuel, timing, etc., and adjust accordingly. This is why it is mentioned the peak should get to around the same are as the tune levels the playing field. I still don't like how you are using healthy/unhealthy and maybe optimistic numbers is more accurate with how you are using it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I never said the cars will produce the same output in different conditions? I'm talking about two cars under the same conditions: one not healthy and one running decent numbers. And are you insinuating that cars that were not broken in properly have a software problem that a tune would somehow fix? Those are usually hardware related...
        If you don't expect similar numbers in different condition why are you holding all cars to this 410 number and assuming any car that doesn't hit it is "unhealthy"? I said a hard break in will seat the rings differently than a soft break in and yes, this affects power output.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I'm very glad you ended with this statement because if you re-read my first post to this thread, you will see that your statement above is exactly what I was trying to say.... the 47 whp gain can be expected only on certain cars. But on a healthy running M156 that happen to dyno in the 410 to 420 range, then 47 whp gain is NOT a very realistic expectation. Yes a tune may gain more on an un-healthy running car, but it will also gain less on a healthy running car. Some companies choose to advertise the minimum hp numbers the software will produce so that the customer does not get disappointed and could always re-produce the results. Other companies like to advertise the maximum number. It's only a matter of choice. It doesn't mean one company broke the barrier or anything.
        47 whp can not be uniform, this is understood as motors vary. There is no reason to assume this E63 was not healthy and that E63's will all put down 410-420 on this particular dyno in SAE.

        This is also 91 octane. How many 93 octane numbers are you using for your 410-420 argument? Also, how many of those dyno's were guys trying to prove how strong their motor is? How many of them pulled filters or filled up with race gas to try to act like the M156 was not giving up anything to the M113k? I remember how the early days were with the transition and guys throwing dyno numbers around and beating their chests. This car did what it did on this dyno. It is reckless to go around calling it unhealthy based on arbitrarily hand picked figures by yourself with 0 proof anything was wrong with this vehicle and no statement from the tune or owner saying anything was out of order.

        It definitely is correct to state one can not expect to gain 47 whp if they baseline 425 whp for some reason. The compression ratio with 91 octane will ultimately be the limiting factor and timing on all M156's will only be pushed so far before detonation is an issue and this is why peak numbers should all sync for the most part. Weistec is doing something different then others though, that is all I can really say.

        Weistec has shown a conservative approach thus far, let's see what more results bring. This is promising and positive for those with M156's including yourself.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        +1000. There are plenty of E55s on the forums that have shown 550+ whp yet run only 11.30s or 11.40s at the track while some of the quickest/fastest E55s have shown just under 500 whp Click here to enlarge

        Sometimes the gains don't translate right away to the track. That's why it is important to pick a tuner that knows what they're doing.
        ET is not directly related to horsepower in the same manner trap speed is. If you pick up a good amount of power it will show vs. the previous setup assuming equal variables. Enough HP and it will show even in incredibly poor DA as has already been demonstrated.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Sadly you are wrong. DD GT3 is just one example who just posted. I could show you endless dyno results of mine from my Chevelle, My Charger, My STI showing more than much gain on the dyno and no results on the track. I feel in this case your track experience is lacking.
        I agree with you on this one. Sometimes hp gain that shows up on the dyno does not show up on the track (at least not right away). I've seen many examples of this posted on the forums and across multiple brands and different platforms. For example, lets say we added a mod to a car and the dyno showed +10 whp in the top end. Now lets say that car did not have a very good aerodynamic design, which meant due to the shape of the car, the faster it weant, the more air resistant it encountered. Well, that would easily cause the 10 whp to disappear on the track. Another example could be illustrated on dynos that don't take load into effect. For example, a car may show 20 whp gain on a non-load bearing dyno, but on a track, the ECU may detect additional load and actually pull timing and we end up not seeing the 20+ whp gain.

        Sometimes due to real-world factors at the track, the power one sees on the dyno may not translate fully to the track.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I agree with you on this one. Sometimes hp gain that shows up on the dyno does not show up on the track (at least not right away). I've seen many examples of this posted on the forums and across multiple brands and different platforms.
        It is a physical impossibility for a horsepower gain if true to go unrealized in application. It's just physics. You can't destroy that energy, it is there. There are other variables accounting for the HP not showing up in those instances.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        For example, lets say we added a mod to a car and the dyno showed +10 whp in the top end. Now lets say that car did not have a very good aerodynamic design, which meant due to the shape of the car, the faster it weant, the more air resistant it encountered. Well, that would easily cause the 10 whp to disappear on the track.
        This doesn't make any sense. The coefficient of drag would still be the same and if it was not drag limited then the 10 hp would not disappear but on paper allow for a higher terminal velocity as well as time to terminal velocity (acceleration).

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        For example, a car may show 20 whp gain on a non-load bearing dyno, but on a track, the ECU may detect additional load and actually pull timing and we end up not seeing the 20+ whp gain.
        Absolutely, this can happen it would seem with these ECU's. The point though is if you gain 20 whp and it stays there it is going to show. It is simply impossible otherwise unless there is a mechanical failure or major variable like vastly different weather.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You are assuming something is wrong with a car that baselines 395. This assumption is based on nothing other than a standard you created in your head. There is no % loss that has to be matched to the wheels. Engine dyno's are used by the manufacturers anyway.
        If you put two stock E63s on the same dyno one after the other, and one produced 380 whp and the other 420 whp, I think it would be clear something is going on. The standard is not anywhere in my head; it is just an observation made from a LOT of data gathering specifically from the E63 and CLS63 platforms.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Why have other E63's on dynojets dyno'd less?
        Many reasons.... some had dirty filters, some were heating up faster than others, different ECU firmware, and believe it or not even different TCU firmware also showed different figures on the dyno despite the dyno running in one gear. There are many factors and with Mercedes vehicles, it could take a long time to diagnose.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What is important is the change from the baseline to the tune.
        Yes... and all I'm saying is that the change will vary greatly depending on the state of the car before the tune and where the car baselines.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, you mentioned overrating not I. I'm not even sure why. You have no way of knowing how that dynojet reads vs. other dynojets or other dyno's. These numbers are not absolutes or written in stone. Pull that motor out of the car, put it on an engine dyno, and you will see Mercedes is not shortchanging you. Also, % loss can change depending on the tire pressure, wheel size, tire weight, final drive, transmission, and many other things.
        We were talking about 100% stock E63s so wheel size, tire weight, final drive ratio, transmission, and all the variables you mentioned being equal. When I mentioned overrating, I said it in response to your underrating example. You basically said that since Mercedes sometimesunderrates their cars, the 507 rating could be off. Then I said, they can underrate a product but not overrate it. Almost every single Mercedes tuner out there uses 18 to 19% for the drivetrain loss percentage. It's not something that was invented.... it was actually based on a lot of research and a lot of dynos from a lot of models on a lot of dyno machines for a LOT of years.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You simply are assuming the car was not healthy which is absolutely not fair especially when you continue to compare it against the highest figures and not even an average which would be much more accurate.
        What're you talking about? I've stated that I've seen the numbers vary and that the average I've seen so far has been around the 410 whp range Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Why would there be something wrong with one of the vehicles? What do you think the % spread of the vehicles would be? If all E63 M156's are within 5% of each other (who knows if that is the case) that would be incredible. 5% though would mean a variance of up to 20 whp which is not out of line and to be expected among motors at this HP level. Break in alone can change this as well as mileage. Ever hear of motors with more miles on them putting down more power than fresh/tight ones? This invalidates your analysis not mine as it shows how large of a variance there can be. A heatsoaked car will still have the same drivetrain loss but put down less power. Once again, another variable.
        5% is a big number, but very different than 10% variation. You keep saying break-in changes the hp level yet you say that a car with a low hp would be brought up to the same level as a car with high hp via the tune. That means that the break-in was not the problem because break-in affects only hardware NOT software. Software adaptation happens constantly and not only a break-in. There are plenty of reasons a car could be down on power, just ask any tuner who had spend hours to diagnose such a problem.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You haven't even asked how many miles this car had, that would be one of my first questions.
        Exactly.... that would be another variable that could cause a car to read lower than usual.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I find it odd you continue to assume this car was unhealthy based on an assumption you are passing off as a proven fact. You could also try asking Weistec or talking to the owner...
        I'm not assuming the car is unhealthy.... I'm assuming that it may not have been running optimally, so maybe it has low mileage and the engine had not had a chance to open-up yet or maybe it had an older firmware, etc...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Why is it not realistic? You have no example of this tune not doing what was advertised. What we have so far is proof it produced 47 whp on a particular car with a baseline in the 390's. If another car goes in on the same dyno with the same baseline, similar results are to be expected. That is what they are advertising.
        And that is what I said.... the 47 rwhp gain was only on a car that happen to read lower than many other E63s. It is yet to be shown that the tune will produce 47 whp on a healthy running car. That was what the "unrealistic" part was referring to. On a 91 octane tune, I honestly expect a healthy running E63 or CLS63 to gain 25 whp.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It should be understood that you can't just add 47 whp to any and every M156. I mean come on Mo, I don't expect ricer math from you.
        And that's why I said it would be unrealistic to expect that type of gain on a healthy running car. The tune would then produce less gains. Some companies choose to use the lowest number they know their product will gain on a specific engine while others choose highest. It's only a matter of choice.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        There would be no reason to imply something is wrong with an E63 putting down 320 whp on a dyno dynamics in shootout mode.
        If the other E63 put down a 380 on the same dyno, then there maybe a reason to imply something is wrong.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It is no wonder Autowave corrects their dyno 20% because guys keep thinking something is wrong with their car when they don't put up big numbers. Dyno numbers can not be treated like they are set in stone when comparing them to other dyno's.
        No... autowave does NOT add 20% because people think something is wrong with their cars; they add the 20% correction factor because people like to brag about high hp numbers. Many dyno dynamics and Mustang dyno places do the same things in orders to keep customers happy and keep them coming in instead of going to a dynojet place.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think some high dyno results have skewed your view of the E63.
        Possibly.... but perhaps your lack of exposure to enough E63 dynos has skewed your view as well.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If a car dyno's low it could be the way the factory tune adapted and how they broke it in. The tuner can take a look and see the air fuel, timing, etc., and adjust accordingly. This is why it is mentioned the peak should get to around the same are as the tune levels the playing field. I still don't like how you are using healthy/unhealthy and maybe optimistic numbers is more accurate with how you are using it.
        Now you are the one who is assuming it is the tune. I just used the term healthy and not healthy to encompass a variety of different possible reasons. You can call the numbers optimistic, but they fall within range of crank hp and drivetrain loss percentage used by every single Mercedes tuner in the business. By the way, 410 is not the highest I've seen.... that's just the average I've seen. So my numbers are not even the most optimistic.... there are much higher.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If you don't expect similar numbers in different condition why are you holding all cars to this 410 number and assuming any car that doesn't hit it is "unhealthy"? I said a hard break in will seat the rings differently than a soft break in and yes, this affects power output.
        So how does a tune re-seat the rings to bring up the power back to the "healthy" numbers? If a tune happened to bring up the power level of a low dynoing car, then the rings were not the issue (I would think). The 410 whp figure was an estimated average which came from a long history of analyzing many E and CLS 63 dynos from different dyno days in different places.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This is also 91 octane. How many 93 octane numbers are you using for your 410-420 argument? Also, how many of those dyno's were guys trying to prove how strong their motors is? How many of them pulled filters or filled up with race gas to try to act like the M156 was not giving up anything to the M113k? I remember how the early days were with the transition and guys throwing dyno numbers around. This car did what it did on this dyno. It is reckless to go around calling it unhealthy based on arbitrarily hand picked figures by yourself with 0 proof anything was wrong with this vehicle and no statement from the tuner saying anything was out of order.
        So now you're assuming that all of the higher numbers were fudged? It is more reckless to assume that every high number out there has been faked and accuse people of lying and cheating. What would you pick as the average baseline dyno for the M156 ?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It definitely is correct to state one can not expect to gain 47 whp if they baseline 425 whp for some reason. The compression ratio with 91 octane will ultimately be the limiting factor and timing on all M156's will only be pushed so far before detonation is an issue and this is why peak numbers should all sync for the most part.
        Thank you... that's what I've been saying over and over.... the 47 whp gain will NOT be for all customers and all cars. Only some of them. Some customers will be getting much less gain.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Weistec has shown a conservative approach thus far, let's see what more results bring. This is promising and positive for those with M156's including yourself.
        Agreed. I look forward to see more of Weistec's products. They are indeed pushing forward on the M156 platform, which is something I'm very greatful for, and I hope this thread does not deter them as it all of a sudden turned into a huge debate from one small comment that it turned out we both agree on Click here to enlarge
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It is a physical impossibility for a horsepower gain if true to go unrealized in application. It's just physics. You can't destroy that energy, it is there. There are other variables accounting for the HP not showing up in those instances.
        That's exactly what propain and I were saying.... that sometimes due to other factors the hp on the dyno will NOT show up directly on the track. Sometimes it takes a long time to diagnose what happened to the power. I've seen some tuners give up and others get to the bottom of it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This doesn't make any sense. The coefficient of drag would still be the same and if it was not drag limited then the 10 hp would not disappear but on paper allow for a higher terminal velocity as well as time to terminal velocity (acceleration).
        As the car reaches higher speeds, it requires a LOT more hp to increase speed as mother nature starts to push much much harder against the car. If a car has a bad shape for aerodynamics (example a box), then it will encounter much more air resistance than say a Ferrari 458 which has a much more fusi-form to it.
      1. RNS-11Z's Avatar
        RNS-11Z -
        Is this thread about weistec tune or sticky vs propain (go enjoy your car. No offence dude but in every thread posted on here or mbw i read its always you thats is arguing a point, why??) and all these other users??

        Any how good to see another tuner to hit the scene. I'm curious to know, is the tune developed from c63 base mapping or an e63 base map that is then modified??

        H