Close

    • Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990

      We thought this eventually might come but not so soon. Weistec has decided to sell a naturally aspirated tune for the M156 V8 which offers gains of 47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, impressive. In addition to the horsepower gain torque is upped by 32 wheel, the speed limiter is removed, and the throttle response is optimized. The price is a very reasonable $990 which also is credited toward a supercharger purchase should one decide they want more power.




      Key Features:

      • +47 Wheel Horsepower
      • +32 Wheel Torque
      • Eliminate Top Speed Limiter
      • Increased Throttle Response
      • Optimized Fuel and Spark
      • Credit towards Stage 1/1+ Supercharger Systems


      To order: http://weistec.com/m156nas1.html
      This article was originally published in forum thread: Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 400 Comments
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        You guys are off your rockers.

        You guys are not only arguinng some irrelavent points you are arguing some incorrect points. You guys are talking about drag coeffients which greatly factor into an ET but you are talking aboutt them with no clue as to how they effect the ET and MPH. You guys are comparing different results from different makes and models which is absolutely irrelavent because in addition to different drag coeffients they are going to vary in weight, have different transmissions which are going to shift at different speeds, shift a diffferent amount of times in a 1/4 mile (5sp, 6sp, 7sp, ect.) , vehicle weight, different tire compound which will effect traction, different tire/wheel diameters which will effect final drive ratio and last but note least different drivers. Anyone that whips out a formula for a car that weighs X and make X amount of hp is an idiot, those two things alone will NEVER tell you what a car is going to run.

        Here's one more thing to chomp on, back when my car was NA making about 508rwhp I woul regularly mop up E55 making 525+ rwhp, and when I say mop up I'm talking 2-3/10ths side by side at the same event. Keeping in mind that the BS is not a light car and at that time it was weighing in right around 4000 with driver how can you guys explain that with all your theorys and formulas above? By the way, some of the same E55 owners I spanked were the guys on the board questioning my dyno sheets that showed 508, they said "an NA 63 can not be making that much power" LOL guess again.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I agree with you on this one. Sometimes hp gain that shows up on the dyno does not show up on the track (at least not right away). I've seen many examples of this posted on the forums and across multiple brands and different platforms. For example, lets say we added a mod to a car and the dyno showed +10 whp in the top end. Now lets say that car did not have a very good aerodynamic design, which meant due to the shape of the car, the faster it weant, the more air resistant it encountered. Well, that would easily cause the 10 whp to disappear on the track. Another example could be illustrated on dynos that don't take load into effect. For example, a car may show 20 whp gain on a non-load bearing dyno, but on a track, the ECU may detect additional load and actually pull timing and we end up not seeing the 20+ whp gain.

        Sometimes due to real-world factors at the track, the power one sees on the dyno may not translate fully to the track.
        That was my point. Joe and I got a bit off topic when I stated "Dyno results are worthless" and this was what I was trying to communicate in my discussion with him.

        Joe, I believe the point you should walk away with in all of this is Dyno's are not perfect. They can show gains where there are none and they can show loss when there is none. Only on the track can you truly know how your car is performing.

        As stated by Moe the dyno used reads low. In that case you can have it both ways then. The max gain is on par with what we know the platform can put out with a tune but the baseline is still low. So what you would be saying in this instance is the 441 is really a 471 on another dyno and the baseline would have been 410. I believe we all know already that a E63 with a tune + filter on 91 octane is not putting down 471 whp. The machine reads low or the baseline was not a healthy pull. The whp advertised is not possible on a E63 that is putting down a 410 baseline. The gain would only be 31 whp, not 47.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Here's one more thing to chomp on, back when my car was NA making about 508rwhp I woul regularly mop up E55 making 525+ rwhp, and when I say mop up I'm talking 2-3/10ths side by side at the same event. Keeping in mind that the BS is not a light car and at that time it was weighing in right around 4000 with driver how can you guys explain that with all your theorys and formulas above? By the way, some of the same E55 owners I spanked were the guys on the board questioning my dyno sheets that showed 508, they said "an NA 63 can not be making that much power" LOL guess again.
        I agree here. There are many factors involved. In your example above I believe it was the tranny of the E63 that was its doom.

        My 66 Chevelle will walk your BS all day with less HP and NA on pump gas. I'm lighter, but its not the weight that will beat you, not by itself. Its also not the aerodynamics, I ran my best time ever with no hood. Its simply the gearing. There is no one formula you can whip out to show what a car will do.

        Good discussion.. I believe we are all on the same page as far as the above goes.... The E63's baseline however is the discussion...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        If you put two stock E63s on the same dyno one after the other, and one produced 380 whp and the other 420 whp, I think it would be clear something is going on. The standard is not anywhere in my head; it is just an observation made from a LOT of data gathering specifically from the E63 and CLS63 platforms.
        There are a lot of M156 dyno's that are nowhere near 420 whp. You are using an inflated dynojet standard.

        If you put two cars on the same dyno and there was a 40 whp spread that *may* indicate something is off about both cars but that has not happened here and is simply speculation. We would have to see that particular situation to know how to proceed as this is just a created scenario and not applicable to the vehicle in question.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Many reasons.... some had dirty filters, some were heating up faster than others, different ECU firmware, and believe it or not even different TCU firmware also showed different figures on the dyno despite the dyno running in one gear. There are many factors and with Mercedes vehicles, it could take a long time to diagnose.
        Yep, many factors so not necessarily that there is something wrong with the motor/health of one vehicle but simply all kinds of factors that can affect output.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Yes... and all I'm saying is that the change will vary greatly depending on the state of the car before the tune and where the car baselines.
        And what I'm trying to tell you is the peak won't vary greatly. You are focusing on drivetrain losses and the baseline for some reason which does not make sense.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        We were talking about 100% stock E63s so wheel size, tire weight, final drive ratio, transmission, and all the variables you mentioned being equal.
        Even if the cars are stock you can not determine that these variables are all equal. The transmission and final drive of course but tire pressure, no. How much tread is left on the tire affecting weight, no. The mileage of the vehicles, no. The break in of the vehicles, no. As stated, cars will not be alike even if both are stock. Similar, yes, exact, no.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        What're you talking about? I've stated that I've seen the numbers vary and that the average I've seen so far has been around the 410 whp range
        Weird because two baselines posted in this thread are nowhere near the 410 range. What about the 385 car? Let me guess, you find it unhealthy as well? But yet it exists.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        5% is a big number, but very different than 10% variation. You keep saying break-in changes the hp level yet you say that a car with a low hp would be brought up to the same level as a car with high hp via the tune. That means that the break-in was not the problem because break-in affects only hardware NOT software. Software adaptation happens constantly and not only a break-in. There are plenty of reasons a car could be down on power, just ask any tuner who had spend hours to diagnose such a problem.
        Yes, a car may adapt to lower timing or have a different air fuel ratio if constantly at elevation. A tune will minimize these parameters into a far more narrow construct. This is why it gains power over the stock tune which does not and is it set much more broadly for safety. When you tune you take a risk but we all know the internals for example can handle the added pressure.

        Software needs to be able to take advantage of hardware, I'm sure you have played with drivers on your computer. Hardware doesn't change yet how it is utilized does based on the software written to take advantage of it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I'm not assuming the car is unhealthy.... I'm assuming that it may not have been running optimally, so maybe it has low mileage and the engine had not had a chance to open-up yet or maybe it had an older firmware, etc...
        In my opinion the way you phrased it you were implying as well as using the term to state the car was unhealthy. Not running optimally would be unhealthy as you have used it.

        Exactly, glad you are thinking of other explanations and seeing variables involved.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        And that is what I said.... the 47 rwhp gain was only on a car that happen to read lower than many other E63s. It is yet to be shown that the tune will produce 47 whp on a healthy running car. That was what the "unrealistic" part was referring to. On a 91 octane tune, I honestly expect a healthy running E63 or CLS63 to gain 25 whp.
        At no point have they advertised adding 47 whp to a car that baselines 420 whp.

        Also, it is yet to be shown that the tune will not produce 47 whp on a car with a higher baseline, not using "health." So far we have one graph so making an assumption about what is realistic and unrealistic based on a single sample size with other baselines that do not apply is actually unrealistic and unfair. We need more runs here before saying these claims are unrealistic as that is unproven yet the gains achieved ARE proven.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        If the other E63 put down a 380 on the same dyno, then there maybe a reason to imply something is wrong.
        Yes but my example is a low reading dyno and the point is to show you how numbers and the % loss can change greatly from dyno to dyno so the figures can not all be interpreted in the same manner.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        No... autowave does NOT add 20% because people think something is wrong with their cars; they add the 20% correction factor because people like to brag about high hp numbers. Many dyno dynamics and Mustang dyno places do the same things in orders to keep customers happy and keep them coming in instead of going to a dynojet place.
        Autowave adds 20% simply because most people don't get it. Someone may think something is wrong, or they will wonder why other guys dyno more, these are all reasons why they try to make it read like a dynojet because look at how obsessed people are with peak numbers. This all started because you don't like 395 as a baseline and want the E63 to dyno higher. A measly 15 whp that can vary from day to day set this off.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Possibly.... but perhaps your lack of exposure to enough E63 dynos has skewed your view as well.
        Kind of weird my lack of exposure was able to find a lower reading graph from a stock car so fast. I also believe I have spent plenty of time in the M156 section and created and maintain one on the motor. So I do not think I'm lacking exposure, I think you want to portray your motor a certain way due to bias from owning it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Now you are the one who is assuming it is the tune. I just used the term healthy and not healthy to encompass a variety of different possible reasons. You can call the numbers optimistic, but they fall within range of crank hp and drivetrain loss percentage used by every single Mercedes tuner in the business. By the way, 410 is not the highest I've seen.... that's just the average I've seen. So my numbers are not even the most optimistic.... there are much higher.
        You are still doing it. Please tell me what the % loss is that every tuner in the business uses? Do you know how drivetrain loss started? It started with dynojet and they got us going down the original 15% rule of thumb for manuals which then evolved for automatics, AWD, etc. based on THAT dyno. Many of the tuners you are referring to use a MAHA dyno which is completely different. Some use engine dyno's. There is no accepted standard that universally applies. I do not know where you are getting this from. I'll put together an article on drivetrain loss in the new Advanced Tech section as we need it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        So how does a tune re-seat the rings to bring up the power back to the "healthy" numbers? If a tune happened to bring up the power level of a low dynoing car, then the rings were not the issue (I would think). The 410 whp figure was an estimated average which came from a long history of analyzing many E and CLS 63 dynos from different dyno days in different places.
        A tune does not reset the rings obviously but the pistons are still the same compression and make meaning you know the window you can play with. The tuner would adjust timing and the air fuel and they would get close but due to the rings not being seated the same way the peak would still slightly vary between the two. The tuner would minimize this difference more than the stock tune automatically adjusting ever would.

        Your numbers of 410 are from a dynojet and you haven't even established if they are all SAE. This is a major point, why is the correction factor continually being ignored?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        So now you're assuming that all of the higher numbers were fudged? It is more reckless to assume that every high number out there has been faked and accuse people of lying and cheating. What would you pick as the average baseline dyno for the M156 ?
        No, I'm implying they could be fudged. Don't tell me a single one of these guys obsessed with numbers (which, clearly, I see now how seriously some take baselines being off a few whp from an expected outcome are taken) would not try to portray their motor as strong as possible? I am not assuming every high number has been manipulated but suggesting ways in which they could be. We have no way of knowing what fuel guys used, if their intakes were modified, charcoal filters in place, etc.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Thank you... that's what I've been saying over and over.... the 47 whp gain will NOT be for all customers and all cars. Only some of them. Some customers will be getting much less gain.
        Absolutely, and it is important to note some customers may get more as well.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Agreed. I look forward to see more of Weistec's products. They are indeed pushing forward on the M156 platform, which is something I'm very greatful for, and I hope this thread does not deter them as it all of a sudden turned into a huge debate from one small comment that it turned out we both agree on
        It isn't a huge debate in my mind, just a discussion. We all want to see more results and we will. Feel free to question and think outside the box, that is what the forum is for. Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Joe, I believe the point you should walk away with in all of this is Dyno's are not perfect. They can show gains where there are none and they can show loss when there is none. Only on the track can you truly know how your car is performing.
        I am not saying dyno results are perfect. Simply that if horsepower is truly added it must show as it is a simple physics equation. If you change the horsepower variable the result has to change. Any basic drag racing calculator uses various forms of this equation.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Here's one more thing to chomp on, back when my car was NA making about 508rwhp I woul regularly mop up E55 making 525+ rwhp, and when I say mop up I'm talking 2-3/10ths side by side at the same event. Keeping in mind that the BS is not a light car and at that time it was weighing in right around 4000 with driver how can you guys explain that with all your theorys and formulas above? By the way, some of the same E55 owners I spanked were the guys on the board questioning my dyno sheets that showed 508, they said "an NA 63 can not be making that much power" LOL guess again.
        I think the point is that if you add X horsepower and run in the same conditions you should see X change. It isn't exact but the horsepower must be there.

        Regarding your car with less peak hp beating a slightly heavier E55 making 525 I don't see any issue there. There are many factors other than just the peak HP involved, you also have a broader curve.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        You guys are off your rockers.
        You are just figuring this out now? We're all a little off with what we do with these cars, it's great isn't it?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RNS-11Z Click here to enlarge
        Is this thread about weistec tune or sticky vs propain
        It's about the Weistec tune but some guys like to question things, it's cool, no big deal.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RNS-11Z Click here to enlarge
        Any how good to see another tuner to hit the scene. I'm curious to know, is the tune developed from c63 base mapping or an e63 base map that is then modified??
        Absolutely, great to have more options. I'll ask how this evolved but they may have already had a base a while ago and fine tuned it. I'll clarify this.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        As the car reaches higher speeds, it requires a LOT more hp to increase speed as mother nature starts to push much much harder against the car.
        Yes Mo, but that is why your original point doesn't make sense. If the car adds 10 HP it can now reach a higher speed than before...
      1. mramg1's Avatar
        mramg1 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RNS-11Z Click here to enlarge
        Is this thread about weistec tune or sticky vs propain (go enjoy your car. No offence dude but in every thread posted on here or mbw i read its always you thats is arguing a point, why??) and all these other users??

        Any how good to see another tuner to hit the scene. I'm curious to know, is the tune developed from c63 base mapping or an e63 base map that is then modified??

        H
        Boy did someone here hit the nail on the head. I would rep you IF I could.

        Bottom line, Cheap tune, good tune, poeple will follow,

        Yes, It would be nice to see some real world numebers, aka ET, and MPH. But being an engineer, if you increase some 50 HP, kill me for rounding, it WILL show a gain at the track. This BS about drag, traction etc, etc, DOES NOT MATTER, as the MPH WILL go up. Provided that it is on a day with the same DA. Same car, same DA, increase in HP will show an increase in MPH. Simple law of physics here.

        If you would like to talk phsyics, I'm your huckoby, LOL
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge

        But being an engineer, if you increase some 50 HP, kill me for rounding, it WILL show a gain at the track. This BS about drag, traction etc, etc, DOES NOT MATTER, as the MPH WILL go up. Provided that it is on a day with the same DA. Same car, same DA, increase in HP will show an increase in MPH. Simple law of physics here.
        Yup, there are 2 words said by people who actually go to the track that define the above. Bench Racing.

        Simply stating A+B=C in drag racing doesn't work. The numbers will not always translate to the track. Many factors apply. Not just HP. Now 50HP as you stated should show some gains on a mid 12 500 HP car if everything is perfect. 5-10 not so much. As Moe is stating the faster your speeds the more HP you will need to continue beyond those resistances. The faster you go, the more resistance. The more resistance the more HP you will need to break those resistances. At 100 mph adding 50 HP will dramatically show gains. At 230 MPH 50 HP would do next to nothing.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If you put two cars on the same dyno and there was a 40 whp spread that *may* indicate something is off about both cars but that has not happened here and is simply speculation. We would have to see that particular situation to know how to proceed as this is just a created scenario and not applicable to the vehicle in question.
        That's what I've been saying.... when you encounter a low-dynoing vehicle, at some point, you have got to start diagnosing it. The mentality that it's naturally low may not work. Even Jim stated that the 394 whp figure sounded too low... the engine in the CLK63 BS has the same 507 whp rating as in the E63 and CLS63 and on many dynos, the engine have shown 410 to 420 whp.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yep, many factors so not necessarily that there is something wrong with the motor/health of one vehicle but simply all kinds of factors that can affect output.
        Again, that's what I've stated before, that the there could be reasons one car is dynoing lower (or higher) than it should.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Even if the cars are stock you can not determine that these variables are all equal. The transmission and final drive of course but tire pressure, no. How much tread is left on the tire affecting weight, no. The mileage of the vehicles, no. The break in of the vehicles, no. As stated, cars will not be alike even if both are stock. Similar, yes, exact, no.
        Nope.... I said if the cars were identical... which meant same tires, same tire weight, same tire pressure...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Weird because two baselines posted in this thread are nowhere near the 410 range. What about the 385 car? Let me guess, you find it unhealthy as well? But yet it exists.
        LOL... I never said unhealthy cars don't exist. I've seen some dyno low, get diagnosed, then dyno higher on the same dyno at the same shop. This does not only apply to E63s, I've seen it on many Mercedes models.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes, a car may adapt to lower timing or have a different air fuel ratio if constantly at elevation. A tune will minimize these parameters into a far more narrow construct. This is why it gains power over the stock tune which does not and is it set much more broadly for safety. When you tune you take a risk but we all know the internals for example can handle the added pressure.
        The tune won't cancel out the effects of different elevation or weather conditions.... and if the car somehow adapted to the less aggressive timing of a driver, then most likely after the tune, it will re-adapt again to be less aggressive to the person's driver. It may not go as low as factory, but it will go decently low in my opinion.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Exactly, glad you are thinking of other explanations and seeing variables involved.
        I'm glad you got that.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        At no point have they advertised adding 47 whp to a car that baselines 420 whp.
        No Joe.... they advertised a +47 whp gain for their tune on an the E63 platform. Many companies handle this differently. If a tune for some companies produce 25 whp gain on a 420 whp car and 50 whp on a 380 whp car, they advertise their tune package as 25 whp gain. Others, advertise it as 50 whp gain. I stated before, it is a matter of choice.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Also, it is yet to be shown that the tune will not produce 47 whp on a car with a higher baseline, not using "health." So far we have one graph so making an assumption about what is realistic and unrealistic based on a single sample size with other baselines that do not apply is actually unrealistic and unfair. We need more runs here before saying these claims are unrealistic as that is unproven yet the gains achieved ARE proven.
        The burden of proof here is not on the customer. If a company claims their tune will produce 47 whp car, then they may have to show these gains on a variation of cars. Otherwise you're saying that they are only advertising that their tune will gain 47 whp car on this specific E63 on that specific dyno with that specific mileage, tire pressure, weight, etc.... To me, when a company advertises 47 whp gain, it is understood that they'll be about a 10% variation from car to car, which equals 4 to 5 hp. But 25 whp variation may not be expected or accepted by many.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes but my example is a low reading dyno and the point is to show you how numbers and the % loss can change greatly from dyno to dyno so the figures can not all be interpreted in the same manner.
        That's why it is always good for a tuner to go through many dynos of the platform and establish a healthy average so they know when to diagnose a car if something is wrong.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Autowave adds 20% simply because most people don't get it. Someone may think something is wrong, or they will wonder why other guys dyno more, these are all reasons why they try to make it read like a dynojet because look at how obsessed people are with peak numbers.
        When I asked them, they said they asked the customer if they wanted the dyno to read like a dynojet or with load so it can read like a dyno dynamics, and they said most customers want to see the higher hp so they choose the dynojet style, but it's not that they think their car is broken or something.[/quote]

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This all started because you don't like 395 as a baseline and want the E63 to dyno higher. A measly 15 whp that can vary from day to day set this off.
        I merely stated my opinion based on my vast experience collected from many dyno days I've attended and dyno graphs I've seen, then responded with more explanation. It's a big deal.

        [QUOTE=Sticky;224104]Kind of weird my lack of exposure was able to find a lower reading graph from a stock car so fast. I also believe I have spent plenty of time in the M156 section and created and maintain one on the motor. So I do not think I'm lacking exposure.

        Not weird at all.... anybody can find a dyno if they know how to type on google. So lack of exposure has nothing to do with it. Heck I can get a 3 year old to find a dyno online. I'm not sure why you think it makes you high exposure.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think you want to portray your motor a certain way due to bias from owning it.
        Hmmm... so now it's personal because I own one. LOL... common buddy. A few people already stated that dyno looked a little low, so it's not just me. It's only that thinks the 394 figure is perfect. I personally don't have to portray my motor anything. I actually dynoed and tracked my car in at least double as many places as you have your M3. I also have seen and helped other E63 improve their dyno and track times. I know how much my engine dynos and how good (and bad) it does in many conditions. And it's because I own one, I was involved in many of these events. And you know this more than most.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You are still doing it. Please tell me what the % loss is that every tuner in the business uses?
        I already told you multiple times.... from their experience with so many Mercedes dynos, the majority use 17% to 19%. I've asked them in the past, but you can call them and check for yourself. Call RENNtech, Kleemann, Brabus, Carlsson, Evosport, etc... There's only one company so far that told me 20%.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A tune does not reset the rings obviously but the pistons are still the same compression and make meaning you know the window you can play with. The tuner would adjust timing and the air fuel and they would get close but due to the rings not being seated the same way the peak would still slightly vary between the two. The tuner would minimize this difference more than the stock tune automatically adjusting ever would.
        Again, that's what I've stated.... that the two cars would still not be on the same level after the tune because the tune can not fix what the slow break-in caused (improper ring seats). So the tuner in this case adjusted timing and air fuel, which is usually done on any car regardless of break-in. So the part that is affected by the slow break-in will not get changed by the tuner through software.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, I'm implying they could be fudged. Don't tell me a single one of these guys obsessed with numbers (which, clearly, I see now how seriously some take baselines being off a few whp from an expected outcome are taken) would not try to portray their motor as strong as possible? I am not assuming every high number has been manipulated but suggesting ways in which they could be. We have no way of knowing what fuel guys used, if their intakes were modified, charcoal filters in place, etc.
        The same goes for tuners... we don't know if the car was dynoing low because of a problem or something else. Maybe the dyno was manipulated to read low, then after the tune was re-adjusted to tune high. Just like guys are obsessed with higher numbers, tuners are obsessed with higher numbers.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Absolutely, and it is important to note some customers may get more as well.
        Yes, and since some customers may get less and others may get more, some companies choose to advertise the less numbers and others advertise the high numbers, and others advertise an average number. This way the customer is not shocked when reproducing the results.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It isn't a huge debate in my mind, just a discussion. We all want to see more results and we will. Feel free to question and think outside the box, that is what the forum is for. Click here to enlarge
        Agreed. But I think our discussion deviated a little bit from the original topic so it maybe best to continue the discussion in another thread so we don't pollute the Weistec thread more than we have. Can you start a different thread that we can continue this in?
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes Mo, but that is why your original point doesn't make sense. If the car adds 10 HP it can now reach a higher speed than before...
        No because in some situations, at certain speeds, it may take more than 10 whp to show 1 mph increase. The faster the car gets, the more hp it needs to increase speed. Take the Veyron for example.... it needs only 270 whp to get to 155 mph but then it needs another 730 whp to get the next 100 mph.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
        Bottom line, Cheap tune, good tune, poeple will follow,
        Honestly, I never arguled or claimed that the tune was bad or expensive or anything like that. I've stated since post one that Weistec is a great company and that I have a great deal of respect for them.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
        Yes, It would be nice to see some real world numebers, aka ET, and MPH. But being an engineer, if you increase some 50 HP, kill me for rounding, it WILL show a gain at the track. This BS about drag, traction etc, etc, DOES NOT MATTER, as the MPH WILL go up. Provided that it is on a day with the same DA. Same car, same DA, increase in HP will show an increase in MPH. Simple law of physics here.
        Agreed. 50 whp gain on the dyno on a 400 whp car should see some increase at the track unless something else interfers. But I don't mean just DA or weather conditions. I mean electronics. Sometimes a tuner may try to add too much timing in a specific rpm range. Well on the dyno because there is no load on the car, the ECU may allow it. But on the track, there maybe a load limit on the car and the ECU may adjust timing and remove the gains or interfer with it. So you end up with a scenario of gains on the dyno that do not show up on the track. In fact, I've seen ones where it actually showed negative results on the track. Also propain and I were referencing relatively smaller gains, such as 10 to 20 whp, which may not always show as 1 to 2 mph if other factors intervene. Either way, I think it's a great discussion.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        I think this is perfect timing seeing that MHP has yet to announc anything regarding them finding a new tuner. Anyone that was kicking around the idea of an MHP tune should consider this Weistec tune, it appears it offers slightly more performance at a great price that's a lot less expensive than an MHP tune. Weistec has a real facility with real engineers and techs working in their real shop, the same can not be said for MHP.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        I think this is perfect timing seeing that MHP has yet to announc anything regarding them finding a new tuner. Anyone that was kicking around the idea of an MHP tune should consider this Weistec tune, it appears it offers slightly more performance at a great price that's a lot less expensive than an MHP tune. Weistec has a real facility with real engineers and techs working in their real shop, the same can not be said for MHP.
        I wondered how long until one of you guys brought MHP into this, even though it's completely unrelated.

        The Weistec N/A tune does sound like a good option for people, especially if they wish to later S/C their vehicle. It's less expensive than a lot of options out there, like Renntech, OE, or Kleemann. It's more expensive than Eurocharged. The uphill battle will be that most people tend to not want to be the guinea pig for something new, when a pricey motor/drivetrain is on the line. The low intro price, coupled with their reputation with regard to their supercharging efforts, will help allieviate that, IMHO.

        As for the E63 results... we need to keep in mind that we're dealing with a sample size of one vehicle. Let's be patient and see what other results roll-in. I expect the +47 rwhp tune-only delta for "E and up" M156s will be an outlier, not the norm, but time will tell.
      1. mramg1's Avatar
        mramg1 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        . Bench Racing.

        .
        Look, propain, methane, sh_tstain, I have been road racing, drag racing longer than you my Neandothal friend.

        Yesa, I know, your car with a shtting suspension did not respond to you new found HP. Be honest for once in your life, and think realistic. If ANY AMG finds some 40+ RWHP, it IS going to run faster, PERIOD!

        If you care to debate the physics behind it, I am all ears.

        Please tell me, you know how to beat F=MA. Of better yet, do you understanf F=MA?
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
        Look, propain, methane, sh_tstain, I have been road racing, drag racing longer than you my Neandothal friend.

        Yesa, I know, your car with a shtting suspension did not respond to you new found HP. Be honest for once in your life, and think realistic. If ANY AMG finds some 40+ RWHP, it IS going to run faster, PERIOD!

        If you care to debate the physics behind it, I am all ears.

        Please tell me, you know how to beat F=MA. Of better yet, do you understanf F=MA?
        Look, Missamg1, no need to go right for the insults. Its not necessary. By the look of your reply I got quite the rise out of you. Why don't you just take a deep breath and relax and come back when you can communicate like a big boy. I wasn't attacking you. If you could get beyond the "Bench Racing" comment and continue to the next paragraph that would be something you can try to debate with me.

        F = MA is you trying to sound like a big physics guru? LOL.

        I don't know in what life I wronged you in, but it must have been really good. You seem to have quite the hardon for me. Try to get over it or simply try to get to and debate like a big boy. If you cant do that than I would simply try to avoid me if you can manage it. If you want to have it out with me PM me and I'm sure we can sort it out. That would require 1 on 1 with you though and showboat seems more like your style. But prove me wrong, ill be checking my inbox for your response, no need to pollute the thread with your problem with me.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Weistec has a real facility with real engineers and techs working in their real shop...
        Agreed 100%. I said from the beginning that this looks like a great tune, and in fact, I myself may try it on my car.

        Again, great job to Steve and the whole Weistec team.... I'm glad you guys are still working on upgrades for the M156 when some of the big companies seem to have abandoned the platform and moved on to the M157 platform.
      1. RNS-11Z's Avatar
        RNS-11Z -
        that would be great. Alot of rumors out there that most files originate from an e63 map slightly modified and not completely custom tuned.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Absolutely, great to have more options. I'll ask how this evolved but they may have already had a base a while ago and fine tuned it. I'll clarify this.
      1. oldgixxer's Avatar
        oldgixxer -
        $#@!,my eyes are burning after reading all the bickering!!!

        Im very anxious to see what a Weistec tune-only E63 traps,if it did actually gain 47rwhp it should easily be in the low 120's.

        Im not going to get involved with this endless debate;Im just going to wait paitently for the dragstrip results,but even then Im sure the results will be debated endlessly with the: "well,if it was at MIR or Atco instead of on the West Coast it woulda went much faster" lol