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    • Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990

      We thought this eventually might come but not so soon. Weistec has decided to sell a naturally aspirated tune for the M156 V8 which offers gains of 47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, impressive. In addition to the horsepower gain torque is upped by 32 wheel, the speed limiter is removed, and the throttle response is optimized. The price is a very reasonable $990 which also is credited toward a supercharger purchase should one decide they want more power.




      Key Features:

      • +47 Wheel Horsepower
      • +32 Wheel Torque
      • Eliminate Top Speed Limiter
      • Increased Throttle Response
      • Optimized Fuel and Spark
      • Credit towards Stage 1/1+ Supercharger Systems


      To order: http://weistec.com/m156nas1.html

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Weistec Engineering now offering Stage I Naturally Aspirated M156/63 AMG tune - +47 wheel horsepower on 91 octane, $990 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 400 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mort Click here to enlarge
        Thanks for asking. I will keep my eye on it and when I see some solid results on a P31 car posted I'll consider it. I have seen dynojet results in the 425 rwhp range for the P31 cars. I know different dyno different day. I will likely wait until my warranty is up anyway as that makes sense and I have plenty of power for everyday street driving.
        If you have a P31 car it might be best to just save for the SC although since this is credited it really doesn't matter either way. Think of the tune as a down payment.

        Warranty? Not my thing Click here to enlarge
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        .
        I didn't realize that this thread was on here as well, so I'll post the same thing I posted on mbworld, and this is just based on what I've experienced in the past with many E63s....
        .
        While these are very impressive results, and I respect Weistec Engineering a great deal, gaining almost 50 whp from just a tune on a 100% stock NA E63/CLS63 platform(s) is a bit unrealistic. In my opinion, the car that was dynoed may have been down on power for one reason or another. I've seen more than enough share of stock E/CLS 63 models dyno in the 405 to 410 whp range.
        .
        Great product either way... Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        While these are very impressive results, and I respect Weistec Engineering a great deal, gaining almost 50 whp from just a tune on a 100% stock NA E63/CLS63 platform(s) is a bit unrealistic.
        You may find it unrealistic because nobody to this point has changed the parameters or accessed the ECU in the way they were able to. The dyno is right there anybody is welcome to get the tune and verify independently...

        394 whp with the stock filters in place is the right range. Depending on how cars are broken in and conditions you will see a slight variance which is natural. 410 is on the higher side and with what correction factor are you referring to? This stock E63 shows 385 whp in SAE with 2 pulls:

        Click here to enlarge
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        E/CLS 63s are rated at 507 hp at the crank and I've seen more than enough of them dyno between 410 (actually seen dyno as high as 419 whp). The CLK63 BS is also rated at exactly the same hp as the E/CLS 63s and they also dyno around the 410 to 415 range (I think jrcart's was 419 whp). At 410 whp, the correction factor would be around 19% loss. If you use the 394 whp figure, then the correction factor would come out close to 22.5% drivetrain loss. And if you use the 385 whp figure, then the loss percentage would come out to about 24%. I think we all know that AMGs don't have that high of a drivetrain loss percentage. Almost every aftermarket Mercedes performance company (big and small) quotes the loss percentage from 17% to 19%. Only one company I know of quotes 20% and they are considered to be on the very high side.

        The point that I was trying to make is this..... since the factory quotes 507 hp at the crank, and the average percentage loss used by almost every company out there is 19%, then a properly running car should dyno around 410 whp. If some cars are dynoing lower than that, then they may not have been running optimally in the first place: maybe bad gas, too much heat, clogged filters, different firmware version, etc.... there are plenty of possibilities. I've been around E63s and CLS63 for too long. I know how a healthy one should dyno because I've seen it. I've also seen some unhealthy ones get diagnosed and brought up to speed as others.

        Please note that I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying it's improbable - especially on a 91 octane tune. Now on a 100 octane tune, then it's a different story.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        E/CLS 63s are rated at 507 hp at the crank and I've seen more than enough of them dyno between 410 (actually seen dyno as high as 419 whp). The CLK63 BS is also rated at exactly the same hp as the E/CLS 63s and they also dyno around the 410 to 415 range (I think jrcart's was 419 whp). At 410 whp, the correction factor would be around 19% loss. If you use the 394 whp figure, then the correction factor would come out close to 22.5% drivetrain loss. And if you use the 385 whp figure, then the loss percentage would come out to about 24%. I think we all know that AMGs don't have that high of a drivetrain loss percentage. Almost every aftermarket Mercedes performance company (big and small) quotes the loss percentage from 17% to 19%. Only one company I know of quotes 20% and they are considered to be on the very high side.

        The point that I was trying to make is this..... since the factory quotes 507 hp at the crank, and the average percentage loss used by almost every company out there is 19%, then a properly running car should dyno around 410 whp. If some cars are dynoing lower than that, then they may not have been running optimally in the first place: maybe bad gas, too much heat, clogged filters, different firmware version, etc.... there are plenty of possibilities. I've been around E63s and CLS63 for too long. I know how a healthy one should dyno because I've seen it. I've also seen some unhealthy ones get diagnosed and brought up to speed as others.

        Please note that I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying it's improbable - especially on a 91 octane tune. Now on a 100 octane tune, then it's a different story.
        I'm not exactly clear on what you are saying here Moe. Are you saying the baseline numbers are to low and that makes the gain as far as whp goes artificially high or is the peak whp number 441 whp to high? To me 441 whp from just a tune on a 63 platform seems a bit high, but mostly because of the 91 octane. My C63 whp with tune was 430-447 tune + Filters. So I dont see 441 to be out of the question.

        My OE Tune Dyno

        Attachment 12625
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Agree 100% with Exeenom. Weistec has built a great reputation, and I wouldn't (and don't) expect snake oil out of them... but something seems a bit off here.

        Tune-only gains on a C63 might be in this range, since it's intentionally "neutered" by AMG with the TB limitation.

        But for an M156 in an E/S/CLS/SL? I find it hard to believe that AMG left nearly 50 wheel horsepower N/A on the table for those models by simply a tune adjustment. Which, incidentally, is supported by basically every other tuners' results for the "E and up" M156s. Did Weistec figure something out that every other tuner, major or minor, has missed to date? Possible... but unlikely.

        Many with experience with these cars/motor N/A, have observed that it takes several dyno pulls for the adaptions to adjust on the stock tune to give repeatable, max-power figures. The comment I've most often seen is that 3-4 "warm-up" pulls the levels keep climbing, then level off at a relatively consistent figure that's representative of true max output. Maybe Weistec inadvertently grabbed a "too-soon" baseline as their benchmark here?

        As others have mentioned, this can all be validated with an independent dyno from a customer. Hope a w211 E63 owner gives Weistec a chance, and pre- and post-tune dynos their vehicle at a reputable facility wherever they live. Until then, folks "in the know" will, rightly or wrongly, probably maintain a healthy skepticism with regard to these results.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        E/CLS 63s are rated at 507 hp at the crank and I've seen more than enough of them dyno between 410 (actually seen dyno as high as 419 whp).
        They can rate the crank whatever they want. Remember what Mercedes rated the E55 at and what it put down? Drivetrain loss isn't really relevant here.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        The CLK63 BS is also rated at exactly the same hp as the E/CLS 63s and they also dyno around the 410 to 415 range (I think jrcart's was 419 whp). At 410 whp, the correction factor would be around 19% loss. If you use the 394 whp figure, then the correction factor would come out close to 22.5% drivetrain loss. And if you use the 385 whp figure, then the loss percentage would come out to about 24%. I think we all know that AMGs don't have that high of a drivetrain loss percentage. Almost every aftermarket Mercedes performance company (big and small) quotes the loss percentage from 17% to 19%. Only one company I know of quotes 20% and they are considered to be on the very high side.
        The drivetrain loss argument is completely irrelevant as stated. BMW is underrating the hell out of some of their motors and also the 15% standard is really a staple of the dynojet dyno. There is loss of course, but going off crank ratings as support makes no sense especially considering how Mercedes plays with their own crank numbers to protect owners ego's.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        The point that I was trying to make is this..... since the factory quotes 507 hp at the crank, and the average percentage loss used by almost every company out there is 19%, then a properly running car should dyno around 410 whp. If some cars are dynoing lower than that, then they may not have been running optimally in the first place: maybe bad gas, too much heat, clogged filters, different firmware version, etc.... there are plenty of possibilities. I've been around E63s and CLS63 for too long. I know how a healthy one should dyno because I've seen it. I've also seen some unhealthy ones get diagnosed and brought up to speed as others.
        It's a very weak point in my opinion. What a car should dyno based on an arbitrary standard is irrelevant. The vehicle puts down what it puts down. Speculating on what the stock RWHP should be based on cars on different fuel, on different dyno's, in different areas, in different weather conditions, does not make much sense to me. As I posted, there was a 385 whp dyno for a stock car in SAE on a dynojet. Now you say 410 whp is normal (what correction are the dyno's you are referring to using? Are they all the same?) although I think we can take the mean and see the 39X is perfectly reasonable for a stock car as it falls right in between the two extremes.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        Please note that I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying it's improbable - especially on a 91 octane tune. Now on a 100 octane tune, then it's a different story.
        Your conclusion of improbability is based on experience with others tuners and previous tunes. I think it is important to keep in mind the tuner in question is the one who delivered the first supercharged M156 AND got it CARB approved. They seem to have a grasp of the M156 that nobody else does. Basically, in a league of their own unless you consider Brabus which once you factor in pricing I don't.

        Tunes also evolve over time, they do not stay stagnant.

        On this particular vehicle the gain is as seen with SAE correction. The gain will not be uniform across all cars but the range presented with drop in airfilters is reasonably what one can expect. Anyone is welcome to verify independently.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Did Weistec figure something out that every other tuner, major or minor, has missed to date? Possible... but unlikely.
        They managed to figure out the supercharger and get it CARB approved which every other tuner has missed to date. Based on this, what is unlikely exactly?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Many with experience with these cars/motor N/A, have observed that it takes several dyno pulls for the adaptions to adjust on the stock tune to give repeatable, max-power figures. The comment I've most often seen is that 3-4 "warm-up" pulls the levels keep climbing, then level off at a relatively consistent figure that's representative of true max output. Maybe Weistec inadvertently grabbed a "too-soon" baseline as their benchmark here
        Speculation without support. It would be in their best interest to do multiple runs. This tune didn't evolve over a single pull. This took time and many, many pulls. They would not just pick an irrelevant graph and say here you go.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        As others have mentioned, this can all be validated with an independent dyno from a customer. Hope a w211 E63 owner gives Weistec a chance, and pre- and post-tune dynos their vehicle at a reputable facility wherever they live. Until then, folks "in the know" will, rightly or wrongly, probably maintain a healthy skepticism with regard to these results.
        Unwarranted skepticism considering the body of work already displayed and verified which should lend SUBSTANTIAL credibility. The NA tune is child's play considering what has already been done. Just the nature of the internet forums where people who think they are well informed want to question thinking they are experts.

        It's very simple to verify this. Considering how much effort they put in to how they display their results and products (which I am quite familiar with) what reason would they have to portray this any other way than what it is? All it would take is someone getting the tune and a dyno to prove it all wrong essentially eroding their credibility which they take very seriously. I do not see your argument holding much water.

        You guys are missing that they are doing things differently from other tuners. Hold them to their own standard.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        I'm not exactly clear on what you are saying here Moe. Are you saying the baseline numbers are to low and that makes the gain as far as whp goes artificially high or is the peak whp number 441 whp to high? To me 441 whp from just a tune on a 63 platform seems a bit high, but mostly because of the 91 octane. My C63 whp with tune was 430-447 tune + Filters. So I dont see 441 to be out of the question.

        My OE Tune Dyno

        Attachment 12625
        That is 447 SAE. So if you hit that I do not understand why with a tune and filters others can not do the same or even slightly better on the same fuel.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        That is 447 SAE. So if you hit that I do not understand why with a tune and filters others can not do the same or even slightly better on the same fuel.
        I stated 441 wasn't out of the question. Im not sure what he has an issue with. The overall gain due to low baseline or the max gain. I see the max gain as a bit high due to the 91 octane but still within reason.

        Dyno's numbers are worthless anyhow. Lets see how it does on the track.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Dyno's numbers are worthless anyhow. Lets see how it does on the track.
        They aren't worthless and the track usually reflects dyno gains. There is no one thing that gives a complete picture but a combination of all performance measurements should provide a clear picture.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        I'll be getting the tune and will post up dyno numbers.
        Regarding the numbers posted already and the skepticism...I think Weistec has proved they are able to do things with the M156 what no one else has, yet many have tried and failed - wonder why ? Could it be that Wesitec simply knows more and can tune better than anyone else ? Look at how solid and reliable everything they have done has been and then ask yourself would they really post some inflated dyno numbers when the KNOW that customers will be making sure they get the advertised gains ?
        As always...lots of speculation but this one should be easy to prove.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They aren't worthless and the track usually reflects dyno gains. There is no one thing that gives a complete picture but a combination of all performance measurements should provide a clear picture.
        "Usually"

        Dyno numbers have some use but tuning for the track and not for a machine is the way to go. All dyno's perform different. The one used might put bigger numbers than another dyno would. In this case im sure of it. You rarely see consistency from dyno to dyno. Its good to get an idea but that's about it. You can have amazing numbers on the dyno but add real world elements like air flow and it could change everything. Anything in a controlled environment is always second best to real world results.
      1. Dodger63's Avatar
        Dodger63 -
        I think its great that there is another option for this platform, as for the numbers on a dyno who really cares I see Mo's point of the low base line but never the less... Let's get some results,,,,
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        I'm not exactly clear on what you are saying here Moe. Are you saying the baseline numbers are to low and that makes the gain as far as whp goes artificially high or is the peak whp number 441 whp to high? To me 441 whp from just a tune on a 63 platform seems a bit high, but mostly because of the 91 octane. My C63 whp with tune was 430-447 tune + Filters. So I dont see 441 to be out of the question.

        My OE Tune Dyno

        Attachment 12625
        I don't mean the overall number of 441 whp is too high.... I was trying to say that the car in question dynoed lower than standard E63s so the dyno shows higher gains than usual especially considering it is 100% stock (charcoal filters still in tact and no aftermarket air filters in place). Now a tune + filters + charcoal filter delete, then a 45 whp maybe possible.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        "Usually"

        Dyno numbers have some use but tuning for the track and not for a machine is the way to go. All dyno's perform different. The one used might put bigger numbers than another dyno would. In this case im sure of it. You rarely see consistency from dyno to dyno. Its good to get an idea but that's about it. You can have amazing numbers on the dyno but add real world elements like air flow and it could change everything. Anything in a controlled environment is always second best to real world results.
        A track isn't the same type of controlled environment. There are variables in all tests but if you add 40+ whp it is going to show up in your trap. Same way you can extrapolate WHP from trap speed.

        A dyno is not just a rough estimate, it is precise as long as you use the same dyno and correction. Comparing different dyno's in different areas with different cars on different days is a separate issue.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dodger63 Click here to enlarge
        I think its great that there is another option for this platform, as for the numbers on a dyno who really cares I see Mo's point of the low base line but never the less... Let's get some results,,,,
        Exactly. Dyno numbers will always vary from dyno to dyno. The max numbers are on par nothing special than what we have seen from other tuners. Lets see how it performs on the track.
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They can rate the crank whatever they want. Remember what Mercedes rated the E55 at and what it put down? Drivetrain loss isn't really relevant here.
        There is a big difference between underrating and overrating. If they overrate the engine, they can get sued for false advertising. So if they advertise 507 hp, then that engine better be make at least 507 hp or more or they'll have multiple law suits on their hand. Also, the E55 fiasco was way before they switched to the new hp measuring standard.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The drivetrain loss argument is completely irrelevant as stated. BMW is underrating the hell out of some of their motors and also the 15% standard is really a staple of the dynojet dyno. There is loss of course, but going off crank ratings as support makes no sense especially considering how Mercedes plays with their own crank numbers to protect owners ego's.
        Again underrating is different than overrating. If you think the 507 figure is underrated, then the a healthy running stock E63 should put down at least 410 whp.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's a very weak point in my opinion. What a car should dyno based on an arbitrary standard is irrelevant. The vehicle puts down what it puts down. Speculating on what the stock RWHP should be based on cars on different fuel, on different dyno's, in different areas, in different weather conditions, does not make much sense to me. As I posted, there was a 385 whp dyno for a stock car in SAE on a dynojet.
        So you're saying that if a car is rated for 600 hp at the crank and it dynoed much lower than it should then that's normal? That doesn't make any sense at all. There is a crank hp rating that is verified independently of the manufacturer. Mercedes has to make sure their engine hits that power level or exceed it. They can't say this engine produces 507 hp and put out an engine that only produces 450 hp.

        By your logic, the tune should really say up to 47 whp because you're implying that weather the car was weaker before the tune or not, the tune will make it as strong as a healthy running car. If Weistec can take an E63 or CLS63 or CLK63 BS stock car that happen dyno at 419 whp and add 47 whp (which makes it a total of 466 whp) with just a tune, then that's a different story.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Your conclusion of improbability is based on experience with others tuners and previous tunes. I think it is important to keep in mind the tuner in question is the one who delivered the first supercharged M156 AND got it CARB approved. They seem to have a grasp of the M156 that nobody else does. Basically, in a league of their own unless you consider Brabus which once you factor in pricing I don't.
        I'm not undermining Weistec's achievement by any means, so please don't imply so. I respect Steve and the whole Weistec and admire all they've done. In fact, I may get a tune myself. My argument was mainly with the amount of gain a standard tune can make may depend on how healthy the car is doing before the tune. For example, I've seen a couple of E63s put down 378 whp on a dynojet SAE corrected. I'm sure many tuners can tune that car and claim 50+ whp from just a tune, but in reality, that car was not running up to par to begin with. AMG works very hard to produce these engine in an as identical form as possible. They'll be a slight variation here and there, but not in the level you are thinking of.
        Tunes also evolve over time, they do not stay stagnant.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        On this particular vehicle the gain is as seen with SAE correction. The gain will not be uniform across all cars but the range presented with drop in airfilters is reasonably what one can expect. Anyone is welcome to verify independently.
        Again, I am not claiming they weren't able to do so.... I would like to see a 420 whp stock E63 gain +47 whp from only a tune.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I don't mean the overall number of 441 whp is too high.... I was trying to say that the car in question dynoed lower than standard E63s so the dyno shows higher gains than usual especially considering it is 100% stock (charcoal filters still in tact and no aftermarket air filters in place). Now a tune + filters + charcoal filter delete, then a 45 whp maybe possible.
        May be? It was just done and on 91 octane, no maybe. The proof is right there. Your theory may have some validity but that has yet to be proven. Perhaps NA M156 tuning took a small step forward?

        Once again, all M156's are not equal and do not all perform in a uniform manner in all conditions.

        Also, there are E63's that have dyno'd less than this one so I do not know why we are saying they all do 410 when they all do not. Some vehicles will start lower than others but once tuned they usually get around the same place. This is where a custom dyno tune comes into play to level the playing field. A small variance with mechanically similar internal combustion motors is simply a reality.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A track isn't the same type of controlled environment. There are variables in all tests but if you add 40+ whp it is going to show up in your trap. Same way you can extrapolate WHP from trap speed.

        A dyno is not just a rough estimate, it is precise as long as you use the same dyno and correction. Comparing different dyno's in different areas with different cars on different days is a separate issue.
        If you want to compare dyno results the same dyno and the same correction will show gains or loss on the same car. But those gains or loss will not always translate to the track. That is why track results will always be better than dyno results. Basic stuff here.

        I have seen gains on a dyno and worse results on the track. A car simply does not perform the same on the dyno as it does on the track.