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    • Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects

      A class action suit is being brought against Mercedes / Daimler AG due to alleged defects in the M156 V8 motor. The suit states that these defects are due to premature wear. The premature wear taking place as a result of the material used in the camshafts. The camshafts used are made of cast nodular iron. The valve lifters used however are made of 9310 grade steel. In the official complaint it is stated that the combination of these metals as designed is contributing to premature wear of the M156 motors. This can be due to improper heat treating of the metals or improper offset. The main sticking point is that Mercedes and AMG have known about this since 2007 when service bulletin S-B 05.20/20b was released. We will keep you updated on the details as this goes forward.




































      This article was originally published in forum thread: Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 842 Comments
      1. Sonny's Avatar
        Sonny -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by pit-pony Click here to enlarge
        In Canada when you order a MY2012 C63 with APX Performance Package does it include the hardened engine internals?

        Are the bugs fixed in this version of the engine?
        It's a good question because if memory serves me the lawsuit is claiming the MY 08'-11' M156's have the defective cams, so one could speculate that the MY12 M156 has different cams, considering MY12's are left out of the complaint.

        But, I don't think anyone yet knows if the "bugs"/cams have been fixed--if indeed there does prove to be a problem with the design.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        It's a good question because if memory serves me the lawsuit is claiming the MY 08'-11' M156's have the defective cams, so one could speculate that the MY12 M156 has different cams, considering MY12's are left out of the complaint.

        But, I don't think anyone yet knows if the "bugs"/cams have been fixed--if indeed there does prove to be a problem with the design.
        Comparing it to the attorneys' BMW N54 complaint, they amended it to update model years at some point after filing. Perhaps they don't know yet the 2012 vehicles have the same parts since they just came out.
      1. Sonny's Avatar
        Sonny -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        Comparing it to the attorneys' BMW N54 complaint, they amended it to update model years at some point after filing. Perhaps they don't know yet the 2012 vehicles have the same parts since they just came out.
        That makes perfect sense.
      1. _AMG_'s Avatar
        _AMG_ -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        Sometimes experts come from unexpected places Click here to enlarge:

        http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...nnyfinal-1.jpg
        Click here to enlarge
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        "The 2 yoots."
      1. mramg1's Avatar
        mramg1 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Because the entire internet is linking to BenzBoost including MBworld which makes them feel threatened and scared they can not control others going to their competition.

        Kind of stupid move considering they left it up for 5+ days anyway so everyone already saw it. Now they just made themselves look bad as it is too late.

        They need to start getting comfortable with BenzBoost, we are just getting warmed up.
        One of the MAIN reasons I came over here Sticky!

        And thanks for the cool fourm.
      1. mramg1's Avatar
        mramg1 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        all that ground up iron has to go somewhere and I understand what Andy said about the particulate not making it past the lifters but finite amounts would make it into the oil it would be safe to assume that those would increase the levels of iron in the oil analysis even if just slightly.
        100% dead on accurate. The smaller particles have NO choice but to end up in the oil.

        Oh my God, I just agree with Jrcart. Just kidding
      1. mramg1's Avatar
        mramg1 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nielsll Click here to enlarge
        I really believe that this phenomenon is an undesired consequence of the conversion to the extremely low ash oils. The cam / lifter materials employed had been used for years in most high performance (flat tappet, solid lifter) valve trains. However, that was before the advent of catalytic converters. Most performance applications have converted to roller cams and rockers and therefore don't have the concerns of galling/ wear that we are seeing here. In the manufacturer's quest to improve cat life, they have pressed for oil formulations that cannot cope with these high pressure lubrication requirements. Remember how MB went from a 0W40 to a 5W40 for this application? The advisory warning to warm the engine to 80 deg.C before excessive engine speed? They most probably knew that this was a problem. They do a lot of testing. They also have a significant business relationship with Mobil. There are oils in the 229.51 spec that offer better performance in resisting this type of problem (Valvoline for one). Many MB dealers have switched to Valvoline. Maybe for this reason?
        Yes it does SUCK that ALL oil manufactures have had to go down on their phorsphours levls do the cats becoming clogged, read this as warrenty guys and girls.

        It is sad that big brother can rull so harshly over ALL enthuisists, IMHO
      1. jbro's Avatar
        jbro -
        subscribed!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
        One of the MAIN reasons I came over here Sticky!

        And thanks for the cool fourm.
        My pleasure, welcome.
      1. 220S's Avatar
        220S -
        What kind of pisses me off is that I have to find out the real story about "Cedric Chan" from the owner of my dealership today, when all along certain people here knew who he was and exactly what was going on. What's the point of having a "community" if nobody is up front and shares info that would help inform everyone. And yes, the dealer management and the regionals know all about what and who is involved.... and so now at least I have some real info. But I kind of feel like a chump after I gave Joe the dealer's 2012 order sheets before they were even released so he could get internet publicity, and then when I asked for specifics about this class action suit, people who know just shut up and say, "um, I dunno...." There seems to be just too much b.s. going on in car forums these days to make it even worth the effort of logging on.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        What's the point of having a "community" if nobody is up front and shares info that would help inform everyone.
        There are limits to what you can share, even online. Shocking, I know.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        There seems to be just too much b.s. going on in car forums these days to make it even worth the effort of logging on.
        Like how you would have known to ask about Cedric Chan at your dealership without logging on? Come on man, don't be absurd.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        What kind of pisses me off is that I have to find out the real story about "Cedric Chan" from the owner of my dealership today, when all along certain people here knew who he was and exactly what was going on. What's the point of having a "community" if nobody is up front and shares info that would help inform everyone. And yes, the dealer management and the regionals know all about what and who is involved.... and so now at least I have some real info. But I kind of feel like a chump after I gave Joe the dealer's 2012 order sheets before they were even released so he could get internet publicity, and then when I asked for specifics about this class action suit, people who know just shut up and say, "um, I dunno...." There seems to be just too much b.s. going on in car forums these days to make it even worth the effort of logging on.
        What specifics do you need? Everything is in the Complaint. You want to know his blood type? Penis size? I don't get it.

        Camshafts and lifters should not wear out...ever with the proper oil being used. His did. Others did as well.

        I don't know what dealership you are affiliated with, but I don't see how that dealership owner could possibly know more facts and persons involved than what is already in the realm of public knowledge. I'm still under belief that the real story is what has already been presented, especially seeing as it has not been the first time this has happened and that's documented on other MB forums.
      1. 220S's Avatar
        220S -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        What specifics do you need? Everything is in the Complaint. You want to know his blood type? Penis size? I don't get it.

        Camshafts and lifters should not wear out...ever with the proper oil being used. His did. Others did as well.

        I don't know what dealership you are affiliated with, but I don't see how that dealership owner could possibly know more facts and persons involved than what is already in the realm of public knowledge. I'm still under belief that the real story is what has already been presented, especially seeing as it has not been the first time this has happened and that's documented on other MB forums.
        I asked as to who he was and what were the specific circumstances around his issue, and not wanting just generalities about it. It's simply part of inquiry and the dialectic. Sorry, but not everything is in the complaint; far from it.

        Yet people denied they knew him or knew any specific details surrounding the issue. And so instead I get the details from the dealership who knows investigators from MBUSA looking at data and personal information before the suit was even filed. Everything from his mods to where he bought his AMG hat and in-between.

        Now I know more about actual facts surrounding this issue but only thanks to a specific relationship I happen to have with a dealership and their specific relationship with MBUSA. (And yes, the issue is real, but much of what you think you might know, you really don't know.) And that's the unfortunate part of forums. Unbiased information is such a rarity these days. Instead, they're more often filled with ambiguity, and veiled secrecy which leads to the drama. What ever happened to transparency? (And yes, that's a rhetorical question.) Forums have simply become a venue for people to address their own egos and personal agendas, and less of an exchange of community dialogue and valued knowledge.

        "Camshafts and lifters should not wear out...ever with the proper oil being used. His did. Others did as well."
        Actually it's an issue inherent with flat tappet design, cast cams, and modern oil formulations. Should it happen? No. But unfortunately it does. And who are these 'others?' Could you please document these instances and be specific about it? It would add to the (notoriously ambiguous) "knowledge base."
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        Now I know more about actual facts surrounding this issue but only thanks to a specific relationship I happen to have with a dealership and their specific relationship with MBUSA. (And yes, the issue is real, but much of what you think you might know, you really don't know.) And that's the unfortunate part of forums. Unbiased information is such a rarity these days. Instead, they're more often filled with ambiguity, and veiled secrecy which leads to the drama. What ever happened to transparency? (And yes, that's a rhetorical question.) Forums have simply become a venue for people to address their own egos and personal agendas, and less of an exchange of community dialogue and valued knowledge.
        Unfortunately, that's the world we live in where sometimes, for many different reason, transparency cannot exist.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        Actually it's an issue inherent with flat tappet design, cast cams, and modern oil formulations. Should it happen? No. But unfortunately it does. And who are these 'others?' Could you please document these instances and be specific about it? It would add to the (notoriously ambiguous) "knowledge base."
        I will try again to locate them on MBW when I have time. There were posts from owners recently in the lawsuit thread that was pages long and was removed by mods. Now I will have to dig back from years of posts to see what I had seen previously.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        I asked as to who he was and what were the specific circumstances around his issue, and not wanting just generalities about it. It's simply part of inquiry and the dialectic. Sorry, but not everything is in the complaint; far from it.
        So then why don't you tell us all what we are missing?
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 220S Click here to enlarge
        Actually it's an issue inherent with flat tappet design, cast cams, and modern oil formulations. Should it happen? No. But unfortunately it does.
        From day one we said harder cams and more convex buckets (although not in your list of issues we certainly see it as one) would resolve the issue, I'm not sure how that's so different from what you've read? We also claimed MB/AMG knew the issue was real over a year and a half ago.

        Thanks
      1. mramg1's Avatar
        mramg1 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        From day one we said harder cams and more convex buckets (although not in your list of issues we certainly see it as one) would resolve the issue, I'm not sure how that's so different from what you've read? We also claimed MB/AMG knew the issue was real over a year and a half ago.

        Thanks
        So you are stating Andy as fact, that you knew MB/AMG was misleading and deliquent in their representation of their product?

        Who would have thought that MHP had a better R&D department than MB?

        There are times that you guys really impress me, then there are others.

        PS: I am very familiar with the benefits/disadvantages of bucket/convex lifter design.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
        So you are stating Andy as fact, that you knew MB/AMG was misleading and deliquent in their representation of their product?

        Who would have thought that MHP had a better R&D department than MB?

        There are times that you guys really impress me, then there are others.

        PS: I am very familiar with the benefits/disadvantages of bucket/convex lifter design.
        Marty,

        As far as quality and legitimate info posted which is what I try to do on this or any forum, I don't think you'll find another poster with more of it than me. Not bragging in the slightest but you need to give credit where it's due. Does anyone post anywhere near the level of tech or input that MHP does about these cars? If they do I haven't seen it anywhere.

        I stated that for over a year and a half we knew and MB/AMG knew (previous to that even) that there was in fact an issue with their cams/buckets. So no, we didn't know before AMG did, we were the first in the aftermarket to discover it. It was verified by friends at AMG and later spread to MB and subsidiaries.

        I don't think anyone ever questioned what you know about cam on bucket OHC valvetrains? The porting question however Click here to enlarge

        The benefits to a cam on bucket are more accurate lift/duration at the valve vs a design using rockers in concert with lifters. The latter design has better wear properties but also arc's throughout the cam actuating the valves so what you see with the cam as far as specs aren't quite what you get at the valve. Race engines are cam on bucket, always have been.

        TTYL